Saleh: Denzel Mims has earned role even when Davis comes back

[slimjasi]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I can partially agree with this.  I think the whole reason he fell to the Jets is that he was viewed as a less valuable slot guy, whereas the Jets viewed him as a versatile inside/outside piece.  At this point, they just need to admit the mistake and primarily use him out of the slot.  At least 70+ % of his snaps or so.

 

The only WR routes that Wilson has seen any consistent success are on posts and slants.  You or @Paradis can correct me if I'm wrong, but post routes in particular favor guys like G Wilson and Davis.  Only slants would benefit Moore, and only when he's used out of the slot.  

It may well be "telling" and Moore indeed isn't as good as those guys, but after seeing his success as a rookie I find that hard to believe.  I'll need more info before determining Moore is anything but a solid young WR being held hostage by a QB who is incapable of finding him. 

 

Burying him the remainder of the season makes sense at this point, unfortunately.  We can't afford to be giving high-leverage playing time to Moore this deep into the season at the risk of derailing a potential playoff season.  Mims is a big-bodied guy who Wilson is clearly looking for.  Might as well use him instead.

Agreed. 

I'd still like to see Moore get some Berrios-like carries and also some screen passes. 

[Charlie Brown]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

Summary:

i was right from the beginning

I see no problem with you stumbling into Truth.....

 

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

57 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Once Davis is back, Moore will be inactive each week.  And he has no one to blame but himself.

Mimsy set the standard for how a New York Jet operates when things dont go your way.  Shut your mouth, put your head down and work, and when you are asked to step up, you do it.

Now Mimsy is being rewarded for his actions and honestly, he set a great example for everyone on the team!

I don't see that happening.  He would be traded before he is benched like that.  I don't see the Jets decreasing his value like that.  

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

I don't see that happening.  He would be traded before he is benched like that.  I don't see the Jets decreasing his value like that.  

The trade deadline has passed.

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, derp said:

Perhaps I’m looking at Moore versus Wilson and you’re looking at Moore? My point was more that I wouldn’t build an offense around Wilson based on what he’s shown to date - given your post about size.

I do think you’re overemphasizing a small, three game sample for Moore - which is why I think last year is relevant. He came into this season with a lot of hype because he gets open a lot, and with Flacco he got open a lot. Then little usage with Wilson and a blowup. 

But he already had little usage - that's what I'm saying. He was already frustrated. The issue goes well beyond the QB with Moore. I am as surprised as anybody about what has happened with Moore this year. 

And Wilson is a considerably better WR prospect than Moore who is better suited to be a true X. 

In terms of building around the QB, they are going to do that for this year, no matter what. He's the number 2 overall pick and he's played 18 games. They are going to do everything they can to get him going this year. After this year, all bets are off. Let's see how the second half of the season goes. 

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The trade deadline has passed.

OK. Change it to would have been traded. My point remains that I don't see Moore getting benched unless he foolishly continues thrashing around on the floor like a 2 year old who doesn't get his way.

[derp]

12 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

But he already had little usage - that's what I'm saying. He was already frustrated. The issue goes well beyond the QB with Moore. I am as surprised as anybody about what has happened with Moore this year. 

And Wilson is a considerably better WR prospect than Moore who is better suited to be a true X. 

In terms of building around the QB, they are going to do that for this year, no matter what. He's the number 2 overall pick and he's played 18 games. They are going to do everything they can to get him going this year. After this year, all bets are off. Let's see how the second half of the season goes. 

I’ve been taking about Zach Wilson and Moore this entire time, not Garrett, if that means anything.

And to that end I’m really saying if I’m building this franchise long term, I’m more interested in re-integrating Elijah Moore in the offense, working to his strengths - he produced in the offense last year - and letting a new QB run the show than I am putting out big receivers to see if Zach Wilson develops a pocket presence.

They may spend the rest of the year on Zach Wilson but I think his situation is more about navigating pressure than which guys he’s throwing to.

I think as prospects Garrett Wilson has a more diverse skill set, higher ceiling, and certainly has better tools to play outside but Moore had the higher floor. If used correctly I think Moore being productive is a layup. But I’m probably viewing that from a fantasy football perspective a little, Moore was a volume guy who happens to be fast and capable of creating big plays and Wilson never really had to play that role on a loaded OSU offense and it’s unfair to expect of him as a rookie.

I think there hits a point that, if Zach Wilson is losing the team games like last week, they can’t continue to build around him for the sake of the locker room. But I really struggle with expecting his pressure issues to improve.

And for the record I don’t think any of your thoughts are off the wall, though I do firmly believe you’re looking a little too deeply into that early season sample and it’s too short to truly be meaningful, I just look at things a little differently and am enjoying your thoughtfulness and this exchange so I’m continuing the back and forth.

[slimjasi]

Just now, derp said:

And to that end I’m really saying if I’m building this franchise long term, I’m more interested in re-integrating Elijah Moore in the offense, working to his strengths - he produced in the offense last year - and letting a new QB run the show than I am putting out big receivers to see if Zach Wilson develops a pocket presence.

This remains to be seen, for me. Moore has had a rough year, irrespective of the QB and I think the Jets have to figure out what's going on with this guy one way or another. But moving forward with Moore instead of Wilson goes beyond this year and depends on what Wilson does in these last 9 games (still slightly more than half of the season)

Wilson is going to be the QB this year, regardless. They didn't take him #2 overall to only play 18 games and then throw in the towel. So, for now, they should tailor the offense to him. If we are talking about a hypothetical year 3 in which Wilson has showed no meaningful improvement in year 2, then sure - although, I still maintain that they have to figure out how they want to use E Moore, in general. 

[I Like Turtles]

Mims and Moore are weapons that aren't being utilized by the CS. Time to tweak ML's system and get them some productive reps. 

[Biggs]

34 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

This sudden "Moore sucks and always sucked" argument would have legs if he wasn't the team's leading receiver in 2021.  In non-Wilson games, he put up the following lines:

• vs CIN:  6 catches (6 targets), 67 yards
• @ IND:  7 catches (8 targets), 84 yards, 2 TDs
• vs BUF:  3 catches (6 targets), 44 yards, 1 TD
• vs MIA:  8 catches (11 targets), 141 yards, 1 TD

He was a monster for that 4-week period.  How do you reconcile that with what we've seen in 2022? 

Flacco is clearly toast now (the wall can come quick for aging QBs, that's for sure), so you can't exactly penalize him for not putting up monster numbers this year when he JUST DID THAT in 2021, with 3 different QBs not named Zach Wilson.   

Are you serious?  We lost 3 out of 4 of those games.  In the 1 win against the Bengals he was the third leading receiver for the Jets in catches and 4th in yards.   He was awful to start had a nice spurt where he came on when Davis was done and he went down to end the season.  He was the main target on a lossing, injured team for a few games.  He's an NFL WR.  

You like lossing along as the stats are good?   

Elijah Moore last year was ranked 81st in receptions yards and 93 in receptions.  He showed promise.  He never broke out.  He never was a monster in terms of actual  productive NFL WR.   The Jets last year had literally no TE and not much at the WR position competing for catches.  We have more talent this year.  He's going to get less targets if were not out of games because there are better options to go to on O this year. 

There seems to be a disconect on how good most starting 2's in the NFL actually are.  Moore is not a 2 NFL WR.  He's at best a slot guy.  The Jets are being built to run the ball, play D and field position and pass the ball off play action to get chunk plays.  Moore is not going to get a lot of targets because he's not as good as GW or Davis and we now have added TE's into the passing game.   That's good for the Jets and may not be great for Moore.   It could well be that Moore is trying to shoot his way off the team because he knows the team is being built so he isn't the shinning star.  He's a piece if he continues to develop and he doesn't like it.  

[Biggs]

33 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

I don't see that happening.  He would be traded before he is benched like that.  I don't see the Jets decreasing his value like that.  

Trade deadline is past.  Mims and Davis are going to get more playing time.  Moore is going to get less playing time.  As it should be based on talent and run blocking. We probably will still use him in 4 WR sets.  Doubt we sit him unless he becomes insufferable.  

[Jetsfan80]

15 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Are you serious?  We lost 3 out of 4 of those games.  In the 1 win against the Bengals he was the third leading receiver for the Jets in catches and 4th in yards.   He was awful to start had a nice spurt where he came on when Davis was done and he went down to end the season.  He was the main target on a lossing, injured team for a few games.  He's an NFL WR.  

You like lossing along as the stats are good?   

Elijah Moore last year was ranked 81st in receptions yards and 93 in receptions.  He showed promise.  He never broke out.  He never was a monster in terms of actual  productive NFL WR.   The Jets last year had literally no TE and not much at the WR position competing for catches.  We have more talent this year.  He's going to get less targets if were not out of games because there are better options to go to on O this year. 

There seems to be a disconect on how good most starting 2's in the NFL actually are.  Moore is not a 2 NFL WR.  He's at best a slot guy.  The Jets are being built to run the ball, play D and field position and pass the ball off play action to get chunk plays.  Moore is not going to get a lot of targets because he's not as good as GW or Davis and we now have added TE's into the passing game.   That's good for the Jets and may not be great for Moore.   It could well be that Moore is trying to shoot his way off the team because he knows the team is being built so he isn't the shinning star.  He's a piece if he continues to develop and he doesn't like it.  

 

You gotta be sh*tting me with this take.  lmfao.  

We lost last week yet Garrett Wilson was highly productive.  Guess we can just wipe that one off the board too, eh?

He never "broke out" because he was stuck playing with an inept rookie QB the remainder of the season.  The 4 other games I pointed out, he was excellent.  What's the common denominator here?  Think hard on this one.

[derp]

23 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

This remains to be seen, for me. Moore has had a rough year, irrespective of the QB and I think the Jets have to figure out what's going on with this guy one way or another. But moving forward with Moore instead of Wilson goes beyond this year and depends on what Wilson does in these last 9 games (still slightly more than half of the season)

Wilson is going to be the QB this year, regardless. They didn't take him #2 overall to only play 18 games and then throw in the towel. So, for now, they should tailor the offense to him. If we are talking about a hypothetical year 3 in which Wilson has showed no meaningful improvement in year 2, then sure - although, I still maintain that they have to figure out how they want to use E Moore, in general. 

So to me, the rest of the season for Wilson boils down to whether he can be effective under pressure. It’s evident when you watch him play, the stark splits back it up, and I don’t think a guy who is worst in the league level under pressure can have a career as a starting QB. By all means give him a little time, and focus on that more than the guys he’s throwing to.

But the large majority of successful NFL quarterbacks and some unsuccessful ones have played well by this point in their career. The rookie deal teams are the ones where you see if you can win with a QB, then he has to go beyond that and have you win because of him to be good on a second contract. Given the rest of the team is pretty good and seems to largely have a decent culture, if play like last week continues I’m not losing the locker room to find out if he’s a late developing outlier.

[Biggs]

8 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

You gotta be sh*tting me with this take.  lmfao.  

We lost last week yet Garrett Wilson was highly productive.  Guess we can just wipe that one off the board too, eh?

He never "broke out" because he was stuck playing with an inept rookie QB the remainder of the season.  The 4 other games I pointed out, he was excellent.  What's the common denominator here?  Think hard on this one.

He wasn't stuck with him he was out injured.  

Moore isn't in GW class.  That was evident from the first time he stepped on the field. 

[Joe W. Namath]

1 hour ago, Ghost420 said:

Then why didn't we just trade him? 

Cause you dont just trade a guy who wants out.  And im sure no one was offering more then a 3rd or a 4th so the value wasnt there.  Plus, we have playoff aspirations.  After a few weeks of humble pie on the inactive list, maybe moore goes the Mimsy route and comes back with a vengence if injuries happen and we need him.

[Biggs]

16 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Cause you dont just trade a guy who wants out.  And im sure no one was offering more then a 3rd or a 4th so the value wasnt there.  Plus, we have playoff aspirations.  After a few weeks of humble pie on the inactive list, maybe moore goes the Mimsy route and comes back with a vengence if injuries happen and we need him.

Don't see Moore pulling a Mims.  He want's out and is going to continue to force the issue.  Mims just wanted to get some action and thought the Jets really weren't going to give him a chance to play.   Agree they might actually need him if a couple of injuries happen.  Also agree he doesn't have a lot of value.

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, derp said:

I’ve been taking about Zach Wilson and Moore this entire time, not Garrett, if that means anything.

And to that end I’m really saying if I’m building this franchise long term, I’m more interested in re-integrating Elijah Moore in the offense, working to his strengths - he produced in the offense last year - and letting a new QB run the show than I am putting out big receivers to see if Zach Wilson develops a pocket presence.

They may spend the rest of the year on Zach Wilson but I think his situation is more about navigating pressure than which guys he’s throwing to.

I think as prospects Garrett Wilson has a more diverse skill set, higher ceiling, and certainly has better tools to play outside but Moore had the higher floor. If used correctly I think Moore being productive is a layup. But I’m probably viewing that from a fantasy football perspective a little, Moore was a volume guy who happens to be fast and capable of creating big plays and Wilson never really had to play that role on a loaded OSU offense and it’s unfair to expect of him as a rookie.

I think there hits a point that, if Zach Wilson is losing the team games like last week, they can’t continue to build around him for the sake of the locker room. But I really struggle with expecting his pressure issues to improve.

And for the record I don’t think any of your thoughts are off the wall, though I do firmly believe you’re looking a little too deeply into that early season sample and it’s too short to truly be meaningful, I just look at things a little differently and am enjoying your thoughtfulness and this exchange so I’m continuing the back and forth.

After seeing how the Jets running game was going I'm much more interested in seeing what Mims and Davis can do with a good TE.  The Jets O was pretty good even with mediocre and bad QB play.   Hoping we have a healthy OL next year and Hall back and put some big WR and TE on the defensive secondary in space.   I can see our running game, defense and play action passing killing teams.  

[68JET11]

4 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

And for another thread, I think with Daboll grooming Wilson we would see a different Zach Wilson QBing out there on Sunday afternoons!  The fact is what Daboll did to improve first Josh Allen and then David Jones is NOT A COINCIDENCE! Coaching matters!

Factoid statement... You can see the influence Daboll has with those 2 QB's... We need either a better OC, or QB coach, cause Zach does not seem to be learning at the same pace. He should be passed the floaters for INT's... or running 30 yards behind the line of scrimmage. You can see Zach has talent from some of the slants he puts right on the numbers to his guy... Quick flip with a 3 step drop and out the ball comes. It's when he scrambles when it gets nerve wracking to see what dumb a$$ throw he's going to make.

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

Davis should have been moved for a day 3 pick or whatever they could get

Cap-clearing move plus he’s not part of their long term plans so might as well get something while you can 

[Vader]

5 hours ago, derp said:

Without Mims the Jets really lack a guy who can win in contested situations outside the numbers. When you don't have that and defenses really don't need to respect that area of the field, especially deep, it's so much easier to squish everything in the middle area and defend that way. Hope he takes the job, runs with it, and we can pencil him in as a starter next year.

Corey Davis 

[batman10023]

5 hours ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

6’3” Mims is a much bigger target than 5’10” Moore. Looking at success zack has with the big Tight end targets, rb dumps, Mims will likely be a more favorable target over the talented but smaller Moore. Zack can throw a bad pass that Mims can stretch and reach, where same pass could easily be a pick 6 with Wilson throwing.. 

Mims was considered talented coming out (raw though).  He not a low ceiling guy.

[derp]

7 minutes ago, Vader said:

Corey Davis 

Not a contested ball guy on the outside. Big body on in breaking stuff and he’s gotten lost downfield a couple times but I don’t think running down the sidelines in 50/50 situations with a corner defenses feel at all threatened by him.

[batman10023]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I can partially agree with this.  I think the whole reason he fell to the Jets is that he was viewed as a less valuable slot guy, whereas the Jets viewed him as a versatile inside/outside piece.  At this point, they just need to admit the mistake and primarily use him out of the slot.  At least 70+ % of his snaps or so.

 

The only WR routes that Wilson has seen any consistent success are on posts and slants.  You or @Paradis can correct me if I'm wrong, but post routes in particular favor guys like G Wilson and Davis.  Only slants would benefit Moore, and only when he's used out of the slot.  

It may well be "telling" and Moore indeed isn't as good as those guys, but after seeing his success as a rookie I find that hard to believe.  I'll need more info before determining Moore is anything but a solid young WR being held hostage by a QB who is incapable of finding him. 

 

Burying him the remainder of the season makes sense at this point, unfortunately.  We can't afford to be giving high-leverage playing time to Moore this deep into the season at the risk of derailing a potential playoff season.  Mims is a big-bodied guy who Wilson is clearly looking for.  Might as well use him instead.

his maturity/red flags (costing them the game etc) probably pushed him down a bit also.

[jetstream23]

3 hours ago, Stark said:

Jeff Smith needs to be gone. 

Replace Smith with a rookie or 2.

Cedric Tillman, A.T. Perry or Jonathan Mingo

 

I thought Jeff Smith was pretty good and a very solid contributor on Special Teams, which has been important this year.

[static14]

Not gonna lie. When i saw the thread preview on the previous page and it said "Saleh: Denzel Mims has ear" I was 100% convinced it was gonna say he had an ear infection and was gonna miss Sunday's game. I seriously have to shake off the remaining SOJF in me. 

[Bruce Harper]

12 hours ago, Paradis said:

Imagine this post a year ago 

That’s a good point. I guess I was thinking about how well Mims has been blocking lately. 

[Facts]

When you have a QB that throws into quadruple coverage, you need a big bodied WR that can outjump the numerous defenders for the hail mary type pass.

[Dunnie]

What you say makes sense, since it was well-documented that his initial complaints went to the coaches, not Zach Wilson.  
But he was still absolutely right!  His targets and usage SHOULD have increased, because Wilson isn't a 37-year old corpse.  Even those of us who despise Wilson acknowledge at this point that Flacco indeed sucks.  It makes sense that, once the supposed FQB comes under center, who he looks for is going to be pretty important.  After all, Saleh has already stated that Wilson won't be benched except for injury.  This was never going to head in a good direction for Moore.
Sure, maybe Moore should have been the one to try to develop a better relationship with Wilson.  But Wilson has to get at least SOME blame for the chemistry aspect, too.  
This obviously isn't a scrub we're talking about.  He was highly drafted AND productive as a rookie.  The entrance of Garrett Wilson onto the scene shouldn't have derailed his productivity/usage this much.  Maybe the coaches will work some magic like they did with Mims in terms of getting Moore to "buy in", but Wilson will still need to look for him when he gets on the field for this for the relationship between Moore and the coaching staff to work out, at least until a new QB1 arrives.

I'm hoping QB1 is already here and the coaching staff does better.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[CSNY]

Would not be surprised if game day active receivers in the very near future are Wilson, Mims, Davis Berrios & Smith. Moore sits until he gets with the program or injuries arise 

And I sure hope Mims plays well. Want him to be Al Toon 2.0 ? He’s got all the physical talent for him to achieve that type of success 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

Get this man the ball

 

[JohnnyLV]

34 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Get this man the ball

 

Serious question. Did he wear an offensive shirt that they needed to censor? That logo is not on his shirt.

I really like Mims. I hope he continues to improve and develop 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

13 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Serious question. Did he wear an offensive shirt that they needed to censor? That logo is not on his shirt.

I really like Mims. I hope he continues to improve and develop 

No idea

How can you tell it’s not a NYJ shirt

[JohnnyLV]

9 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

No idea

How can you tell it’s not a NYJ shirt

It seems the logo moves independent of the shirt

[jetstream23]

On 11/5/2022 at 10:37 AM, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Get this man the ball

 

The playbook has come along slowly for him.  It is what is and that's fine.  He's stuck with it, he seems to have things down, he's running routes and blocking well.  Arrow pointing up for this guy.  I think he's learned a lot.