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I no longer look at stats like I did when I was younger...so,


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To you guys that pay attention to all of it and it's not a knock on you, I just don't do it any longer.  My question is, does Trevor Lawrence play behind a better or worse O line than Zack Wilson does?  Have the Jag's O line suffered injuries to their line like we have?  Thanks for the input.

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2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Football is a team game.  

Wins and Losses is one way to look at a QB, but it's not a great one, as a QB can suck, and the team win, or be very good, and the team lose.  

I prefer to focus on the production of the QB himself compared to how other NFL QB's compete.

Doesn't mean they don't get credit for leading and producing in key moments to help or drive wins.  But W/L is not the best way to look at QB's, that's more a Head Coach stat IMO.

And this has to do with his O Line how?

 

 

j/k. 

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26 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Football is a team game.  

Wins and Losses is one way to look at a QB, but it's not a great one, as a QB can suck, and the team win, or be very good, and the team lose.  

I prefer to focus on the production of the QB himself compared to how other NFL QB's compete.

Doesn't mean they don't get credit for leading and producing in key moments to help or drive wins.  But W/L is not the best way to look at QB's, that's more a Head Coach stat IMO.

Team game yet you base it off stats that require the OL to block and the WRs to catch. 

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27 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Football is a team game.  

Wins and Losses is one way to look at a QB, but it's not a great one, as a QB can suck, and the team win, or be very good, and the team lose.  

I prefer to focus on the production of the QB himself compared to how other NFL QB's compete.

Doesn't mean they don't get credit for leading and producing in key moments to help or drive wins.  But W/L is not the best way to look at QB's, that's more a Head Coach stat IMO.

Carr for the Texsan’s might be a more recent example of this? 
 

Seemed like he got killed behind a bad OLine and never had a chance and was maybe never the same after.  I just saw highlights so I don’t know, but that was certainly the narrative.  

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56 minutes ago, doitny said:

Mark Sanchez as a Jet was 33-29 and 4-2 in the playoffs.

he finished 37-36. so do wins really tell you how good or bad a QB is? 

And Justin Herbert is 19-20 with 0 playoff appearances, despite looking really good for the majority of those games.

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6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And on that front, here's how the 2 stack up across a multitude of categories in 2022 (rankings are out of 35 qualifying QBs):

Completion %

  • Lawrence:  27th (62.5)
  • Wilson:  34th (54.9)

QB Rating

  • Lawrence:  22nd (84.8)
  • Wilson:  34th (71.0)

QBR

  • Lawrence:  22nd (45.6)
  • Wilson:  24th (41.7)

Yards per Attempt

  • Lawrence:  25th (6.6)
  • Wilson:  14th (7.4)

Yards per Game

  • Lawrence:  20th (230.0)
  • Wilson:  22nd (209.6)

TD %

  • Lawrence:  20th (3.6)
  • Wilson:  34th (2.1)

INT %

  • Lawrence:  20th (2.2)
  • Wilson:  31st (3.5)

Sack %

  • Lawrence:  6th (4.2)
  • Wilson:  16th (6.6)

Air Yards per Attempt

  • Lawrence:  22nd (6.4)
  • Wilson:  24th (6.2)

Intended Air Yards per Attempt

  • Lawrence:  18th (7.7)
  • Wilson:  13th (8.1)

Completed Air Yards per Attempt

  • Lawrence:  t-22nd (3.4)
  • Wilson:  25th (3.3)

YAC per Completion

  • Lawrence:  Lawrence:  21st (5.3)
  • Wilson:  35th (7.4)

Drop %

  • Lawrence:  10th (6.3)
  • Wilson:  7th (7.0)

Bad Throw %

  • Lawrence:  27th (19.0)
  • Wilson:  35th (22.7)

On Target %

  • Lawrence:  18th (75.0)
  • Wilson:  26th (71.9)

Play Action Yardage per Game

  • Lawrence:  14th (55.5)
  • Wilson:  25th (42.2)

 

Observations:

  • Lawrence has Wilson beat on 13 of the 16 categories (exceptions:  YPA, IAY/PA, Drop %).  YPA is the big one there that should give Wilson defenders a scrap of hope.
  • Contrary to popular opinion, Wilson's OL is not "failing him", nor are his receivers.  The receiver drop % is high but not the worst in the league, and meanwhile he's doing his receivers no favors by rarely being on target.  Wilson has also benefitted from having the most YAC per completion in the league by far, and it can't really be explained by great ball placement.  It also puts a bit of a dent in Wilson's strong YPA figure.
  • It's maddening that Wilson is only 25th in Play Action yardage per game given how good of a running team we've been this season, especially when Breece was healthy.  Some of that is scheme (too many plays out of shotgun), but most of that falls on Wilson simply being an ineffective QB at selling PA.
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8 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Wilson has 5 career fumbles, 0 this year

Wonder boy has 14 career fumbles, 5 this year

Wilson has 1 fumble this season, but the refs gifted him with a no-count. That said it's still a pretty contrasting statistic.

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2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Observations:

  • Lawrence has Wilson beat on 13 of the 16 categories (exceptions:  YPA, IAY/PA, Drop %).  YPA is the big one there that should give Wilson defenders a scrap of hope.
  • Contrary to popular opinion, Wilson's OL is not "failing him", nor are his receivers.  The receiver drop % is high but not the worst in the league, and meanwhile he's doing his receivers no favors by rarely being on target.  Wilson has also benefitted from having the most YAC per completion in the league by far, and it can't really be explained by great ball placement.  It also puts a bit of a dent in Wilson's strong YPA figure.
  • It's maddening that Wilson is only 25th in Play Action yardage per game given how good of a running team we've been this season, especially when Breece was healthy.  Some of that is scheme (too many plays out of shotgun), but most of that falls on Wilson simply being an ineffective QB at selling PA.

btw i love the research you did on the above post. 

he has all those YAC yards cause of short dumps to Hall where he broke it for big gains. or like Sunday where he shovel passed it 2 yards to GW who broke off a big gain. imagine how good he could be if he could throw a 7 yd slant on target and lead his receiver all the YAC yards they could get. instead of making them dive or twisted to catch it that kills any YAC.

Zach is forcing Lafluer to call all those shotguns cause he runs at the 1st sign of pressure. Lafluer was passing coordinator for Jimmy G for 4 years and went to SB with him. but now he doesnt know what he is doing? no, its cause his QB Zach is limited and he cant scheme the way he wants to.

Tanny was on TMKS and killed Zach. he said what we all say, the players and coaches know that Zach is holding them back. Salah will have no choice but to bench him soon.

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29 minutes ago, doitny said:

btw i love the research you did on the above post. 

he has all those YAC yards cause of short dumps to Hall where he broke it for big gains. or like Sunday where he shovel passed it 2 yards to GW who broke off a big gain. imagine how good he could be if he could throw a 7 yd slant on target and lead his receiver all the YAC yards they could get. instead of making them dive or twisted to catch it that kills any YAC.

Zach is forcing Lafluer to call all those shotguns cause he runs at the 1st sign of pressure. Lafluer was passing coordinator for Jimmy G for 4 years and went to SB with him. but now he doesnt know what he is doing? no, its cause his QB Zach is limited and he cant scheme the way he wants to.

Tanny was on TMKS and killed Zach. he said what we all say, the players and coaches know that Zach is holding them back. Salah will have no choice but to bench him soon.

Disagree.  You want David Mills.  That’s not good enough to be a great team.  Zach still has flashes and that’s good enough for now. He gets the full season at least.  
 

You working yourself up and into something that isn’t there.  

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7 hours ago, Warfish said:

Football is a team game.  

Wins and Losses is one way to look at a QB, but it's not a great one, as a QB can suck, and the team win, or be very good, and the team lose.  

I prefer to focus on the production of the QB himself compared to how other NFL QB's compete.

Doesn't mean they don't get credit for leading and producing in key moments to help or drive wins.  But W/L is not the best way to look at QB's, that's more a Head Coach stat IMO.

I think all stats are useless because like other posters mentioned, its a team game with so many variables and factors. The only thing I trust is the eye test.

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18 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Disagree.  You want David Mills.  That’s not good enough to be a great team.  Zach still has flashes and that’s good enough for now. He gets the full season at least.  
 

You working yourself up and into something that isn’t there.  

Zach Wilson isn’t getting you to greatness either buddy.  This wonderful ceiling we keep getting promised just doesn’t exist.

So, yes, if it’s between Mills or Wilson I’ll take Mills, and continue look to find someone better than Mills.  At least I’m the process of finding a true FQB, Mills won’t lose you games like Wilson did last week. 

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6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Zach Wilson isn’t getting you to greatness either buddy.  This wonderful ceiling we keep getting promised just doesn’t exist.

So, yes, if it’s between Mills or Wilson I’ll take Mills, and continue look to find someone better than Mills.  At least I’m the process of finding a true FQB, Mills won’t lose you games like Wilson did last week. 

Wrong.  Zach can be great.   He played really well and took what was given the entire first half last week.  He made a number of extremely high level plays. 

You want a shortcut.  That’s not the Jets plan right now.  They want to win Superbowls and Zach can be that guy. 
 

Zach is getting better.  It’s nonsense to deny the possibility he cuts down on the bad plays.

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20 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So the only thing you trust is the most subjective option possible.  

Got it.

Lmao I know how it sounds, but stats can be deceiving especially with QBs. I don't like to rely on anything else to make my judgment other than watching full games. This applies to sports in general, especially those that are heavily team oriented. If you want to see whether a guy sucks or has the IT factor just watch the games.

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15 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Wrong.  Zach can be great.   He played really well and took what was given the entire first half last week.  He made a number of extremely high level plays. 

You want a shortcut.  That’s not the Jets plan right now.  They want to win Superbowls and Zach can be that guy. 
 

Zach is getting better.  It’s nonsense to deny the possibility he cuts down on the bad plays.


Stop telling me Zach can be great or shows signs of future greatness with zero evidence to support that this is the case or could be.  

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6 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Disagree.  You want David Mills.  That’s not good enough to be a great team.  Zach still has flashes and that’s good enough for now. He gets the full season at least.  
 

You working yourself up and into something that isn’t there.  

for now i would like a QB who can complete passes at a higher rate like over 60%. 

Zach is 1-2 bad games away for being benched. Saleh will say he is still the starter but he needs a game to clear his head. then its up to Mike White to whether Zach plays again for us. there is no way they let him kill this season for the rest of the team.

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13 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And on that front, here's how the 2 stack up across a multitude of categories in 2022 (rankings are out of 35 qualifying QBs):

Completion %

  • Lawrence:  27th (62.5)
  • Wilson:  34th (54.9)

QB Rating

  • Lawrence:  22nd (84.8)
  • Wilson:  34th (71.0)

QBR

  • Lawrence:  22nd (45.6)
  • Wilson:  24th (41.7)

Yards per Attempt

  • Lawrence:  25th (6.6)
  • Wilson:  14th (7.4)

Yards per Game

  • Lawrence:  20th (230.0)
  • Wilson:  22nd (209.6)

TD %

  • Lawrence:  20th (3.6)
  • Wilson:  34th (2.1)

INT %

  • Lawrence:  20th (2.2)
  • Wilson:  31st (3.5)

Sack %

  • Lawrence:  6th (4.2)
  • Wilson:  16th (6.6)

Air Yards per Attempt

  • Lawrence:  22nd (6.4)
  • Wilson:  24th (6.2)

Intended Air Yards per Attempt

  • Lawrence:  18th (7.7)
  • Wilson:  13th (8.1)

Completed Air Yards per Attempt

  • Lawrence:  t-22nd (3.4)
  • Wilson:  25th (3.3)

YAC per Completion

  • Lawrence:  Lawrence:  21st (5.3)
  • Wilson:  35th (7.4)

Drop %

  • Lawrence:  10th (6.3)
  • Wilson:  7th (7.0)

Bad Throw %

  • Lawrence:  27th (19.0)
  • Wilson:  35th (22.7)

On Target %

  • Lawrence:  18th (75.0)
  • Wilson:  26th (71.9)

Play Action Yardage per Game

  • Lawrence:  14th (55.5)
  • Wilson:  25th (42.2)

Ok so are basically the same

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10 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So the only thing you trust is the most subjective option possible.  

Got it.

Statistics don’t tell the entire story. Trust my eyes and what I’ve experienced over the years more than numbers which can be manipulated any way a person wants them to say. 
Don’t need numbers to tell me Zach is not playing anywhere near an average QB 

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45 minutes ago, CSNY said:

Statistics don’t tell the entire story. Trust my eyes and what I’ve experienced over the years more than numbers which can be manipulated any way a person wants them to say. 
Don’t need numbers to tell me Zach is not playing anywhere near an average QB 

Glad you’re a strong QB evaluator who can see that.  Now tell that to the folks whose eye tests say Wilson is playing fine and is secretly a future elite FQB.

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Glad you’re a strong QB evaluator who can see that.  Now tell that to the folks whose eye tests say Wilson is playing fine and is secretly a future elite FQB.

I am no QB evaluator by any means but anyone can plainly see he is not playing well. That is not to say he doesn’t have potential to be a very good QB, the talent is obviously there   just holding out hope the light goes on sooner rather than when Geno Smiths light went on

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