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For context, Zach is the 2nd youngest QB in the league


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6 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Well his age also means he is a second year QB. I mean thats what are we talking about here. 

I just don't understand how Jet fans can't step back and see that this is a 2nd year QB with 19 actual games under his belt. It astounds me how quick fans are ready to throw in the towel on this kid and make arguments liek 'age isn't a factor' and 'he won't get better' etc., etc.

Just take a step back. 

Zach Wilson. Drafted last year. One full season in the league. This is his second season and we are less than half way through. He has PLENTY of time.  

You are fighting against an argument that isn't being made.  I don't think anybody in this thread said WIlson cannot improve.  We said him being the "2nd youngest starting QB" in the NFL is not really relevant - in addition to not being true.  Basically, all it means is that the 2022 class blows.  We all knew that.  He's older than Lance and Lawrence.  Is he young and can improve?  Of course.  Is his age some disadvantage he is courageously overcoming?  Certainly no more than Lawrence, who is actually younger.

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1 hour ago, derp said:

Was the point that…he’s young? On a Jets forum? Like everyone doesn’t know? He’s a second year player, was an early entry, and is the most talked about player on the board.

On top of that weren’t any meaningful quarterbacks in the rookie class, which we all know 

The only part of the post that would’ve been interesting him being he’s the second youngest quarterback in the league, and it’s in the title. But he’s not.

None of that takes away him being young, but no kidding he’s young.

I think the OP can explain better but you can read the tea leaves on this one. Zach is one of the youngest starting QBs in the league and impatient Jet fans who are ready to cast him off or assume he can't or won't get better should probably chill out and have a little more patience as some QBs take longer to develop than others. 

I'm guessing this is the general point of the thread. Not trying to prove exactly how many days or months younger or older he is compared to the other few starting QBs from his draft class. That is all I was trying to say in my reply. No sense in arguing that Lawrence was born on October 6th and Zach was born on August 3rd- so technically, Lawrence is younger. Like, that is not the point here. 

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From The Athletic:

”This season, Wilson has completed 21 percent of his passes under pressure, which ranks last out of 32 qualified QBs and is nearly 17 points lower than the next-worst quarterback, Kirk Cousins.”

Still hopeful Wilson is the real deal. He’s coming off a “solid” performance vs the Bills.  Playing the Pats up in NE is the next big test.  
Will he take another step forward or a step back?

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6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

"2nd youngest starting QB" in the NFL is not really relevant

Thats the thing. IT IS RELEVANT. My whole point. And dang, I have to make it again. Is QBs sometimes (often) take time to develop. So it DOES matter that he is young. It does matter that he is only in his second year. Its silly to assume that the whole 2022 class 'blows' because all these guys are still young and currently in their 2nd year. Some have only started a handful of games. 

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54 minutes ago, Greg555 said:

From The Athletic:

”This season, Wilson has completed 21 percent of his passes under pressure, which ranks last out of 32 qualified QBs and is nearly 17 points lower than the next-worst quarterback, Kirk Cousins.”

Still hopeful Wilson is the real deal. He’s coming off a “solid” performance vs the Bills.  Playing the Pats up in NE is the next big test.  
Will he take another step forward or a step back?

Mahomes destroys teams who blitz.  He also kills it even when the other team gets home without blitzing.  It's unreal.

Wilson will never be a franchise QB if he can't win from a muddy pocket.

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28 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Mahomes destroys teams who blitz.  He also kills it even when the other team gets home without blitzing.  It's unreal.

Wilson will never be a franchise QB if he can't win from a muddy pocket.

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Can we stop comparing Zach Wilson to Mahomes. 

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2 hours ago, PepPep said:

Huh? There are tons of examples of QBs who were thrust into action as rookies and played poorly (or I should say, underperformed and made lots of mistakes, etc., etc.) then developed into very good or even SB winning QBs.

And there are many more that did not. 

2 hours ago, PepPep said:

Alex Smith and Jameis Winston? How about BOTH of the Manning brothers, how about Brees, I mean those three guys might be extremes- and they threw for more yards and TDs than Zach did his rookie year, but they also threw a lot of INTs and they did not lead their teams to wins.

For every Manning, there are 10 who fail. Again, cherry picking only successes ignores the majority of outcomes.  For every Alex Smith, there are a dozen Sam Darnolds. 

2 hours ago, PepPep said:

How about Geno???

What about him?  Don’t see the relevance to this topic.

2 hours ago, PepPep said:

Just saying...Zach will develop into what he will develop. He will either remain the inconsistent QB he is right now, or he will end up a JAG manager type, or he will ascend to a higher level. We will see, its truly too early to tell, and to be honest will probably be too early to tell by the end of the year. He's only had one full season under his belt and now he's battling through his sophomore year. Including missed games due to injuries, etc. 

We will see.

2 hours ago, PepPep said:

What I know is he clearly has the ceiling to be a very good QB, good enough to take us all the way. And that's enough to give him a chance and stick with him until proven otherwise. 

If you say so. It’ll be hard to argue for an uncontested third year as starter, competition free, if he again finishes as the lowest producing QB in the NFL this year. Winning lord of games is, of course, the wildcard for that. As above, we shall see.

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I agree completely.  I have been spouting this for ages. I think Douglas and Saleh seriously considered sticking with Darnold, but did not like the uncertainty of whether he was worth the 5th year option.  I read somewhere that Derek Carr was the cut-off.  They felt if you were worse than Carr, not 2nd contract.  I don't think they loved Wilson so much as they felt WIlson cheap for 21, 22, 23, 24 with an option on 25 + a 2nd rounder > Darnold for 21, on the expensive 5th year option for 2022 + #2 overall.  I don't know that I would argue with that, plus I think having a rookie QB gives some built in install time for their system. 

I always say the important thing is the years of the contract, not the age of the player.  A guy like Duane Brown?  Sure it matters how old he is, but it is only a year or two deal.  For rookies, I used to not care about age since even the old ones will be under 30 when their first contract expires.  OTOH, where that throws me off is that there are some metrics that show that young prospects that dominate turn out to be better pros than older guys.  I think it matters more at the top of the 1st considering guys like Johnson, than in for later guys like Clemons and Shepherd.  Both based on the level of asset given up for the risk and the one less year of contract.  Of course putting too much emphasis on age sometimes means you are selecting Amobi Okoye in the top 10.

Yeah I think for draft picks age matters to the extent you’ve got somebody physically dominating because he’s fully grown and playing against kids. Definitely matters more early. If it’s young guys they need to be young and good, not just young.

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2 hours ago, PepPep said:

I think the OP can explain better but you can read the tea leaves on this one. Zach is one of the youngest starting QBs in the league and impatient Jet fans who are ready to cast him off or assume he can't or won't get better should probably chill out and have a little more patience as some QBs take longer to develop than others. 

I'm guessing this is the general point of the thread. Not trying to prove exactly how many days or months younger or older he is compared to the other few starting QBs from his draft class. That is all I was trying to say in my reply. No sense in arguing that Lawrence was born on October 6th and Zach was born on August 3rd- so technically, Lawrence is younger. Like, that is not the point here. 

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Again, I just don’t think is a point worth making. We all know Wilson is young. I could make a thread saying Duane Brown is old so he’s probably not the left tackle of the future, we all know that too.

I saw you gave another poster examples from quite some time ago of quarterbacks who took time to develop. The new rookie wage scale changes things. Having a cost controlled young QB means you can build a really good team around him, which it seems the Jets have done. Lately more quarterbacks have been productive on rookie deals and turned out to not be franchise QB's than slow to develop and ended up being franchise QB's. And when you have the surrounding team to be a competitor it also speeds up the clock.

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22 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Wilson literally just fumbled on Sunday, a play which could have easily cost them the game 

I was in Denver when he had that ridiculous fumble where he ran ass backwards first and looked a drunk guy falling down but got bailed out when the refs ruled him down

Fields just played a clean game on Sunday with 4 TDs and 0 TOs

Fields needs to work on his ball security in the pocket and as a runner.  Those things can be fixed with technique and habit.

Wilson literally just gave the ball to NE 3 times less than 10 days ago.

You can’t teach Fields’ all-world ability as a rusher.

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24 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

There are 16 quarterbacks in the NFL that are 24 or younger.  What material difference is there between a 24 year old and a 23 year old?

Threads like this make my head hurt.  Years of experience is much more relevant than "age."

Agreed. 

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5 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

Your breakdown is more dissecting than mine with the pass attempts but would you not agree that Zach for the most part had been shield by the running game of Hall and now Carter? Look at the last drive against the Bills. I know the run was working but what was that, 8 straight running plays? Who besides maybe the Titans does that? There are also some plays called that I think show the Jets are just not willing to let Zach throw the ball down field. There was a third and 5 I think against the Bills where they called a WR screen to GW. I thought that was a horrible call and Zach got crunched on the play and didn't  pickup the first down. That play looked like they didn't  trust Zach to throw in that situation or at least throw down field. I haven't  watched Fields enough either to know if he is being handled like this but it doesn't  appear that way. It think they are willing to take more chances with Fields which is making the pick numbers higher.

 

5 hours ago, nycdan said:

Not sure what the future holds, but I could see both Wilson and Fields developing into very good QBs.  Fields already shows Lamar-like potential and I think he can become a very good passer as well.  We saw the arm in the OSU-Clemson game.  Certainly he can become good enough to give the Bears a real shot if they can address their weak-ass roster. 

Zach is still very boom-or-bust to me, but I see enough glimmers of growth this season to think that he can continue the trend, and turn into a strength of the team next season.  The roster is set up for him to be successful, so it's really just about him shoring up his weaknesses (and not by turning dirt-balls into air-balls please).  After seeing the bashing of so many here (JD, Saleh, Ulbrich, Quinnen, Mosley, AVT, Davis, the list goes on....) I'm pretty much ignoring the negativity and reserving judgment. 

To be honest, how he plays up in NE next week is going to be a big test for me.  Show me 250 yards and 2 TDs and a win, and I will do the snoopy dance.

Yeah I could answer the same to both of these, which is that there are plenty of ways to rationalize past performance to infer what's to come in the future. I don't have a dog in this race other than the obvious, that I want Wilson to develop into a reliable + dangerous FQB. But I mean I wasn't pining for the Jets to draft one or the other on draft day. Lawrence was more or less the top pick straight through, and for a while it was Lawrence vs. Fields, then Fields faded (draft value-wise) and Wilson climbed.

Sometimes that happens and in hindsight that's how it should've been - see Rosen, who similarly was flirting with draft "experts" going back & forth on who should be the top pick between him & Darnold. Then he drops to become the 4th one taken and - while 2 of the other 3 still kinda sucked - was easily the worst of the 4 (Jackson never really being in the discussion at that stage iirc). 

What does all this mean? Nothing really, except that I type a lot. 

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5 hours ago, Warfish said:

And there are many more that did not. 

Aren't you clever. 

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For every Manning, there are 10 who fail. Again, cherry picking only successes ignores the majority of outcomes.  For every Alex Smith, there are a dozen Sam Darnolds. 

Not really. I would argue MOST QBs take a year or two to acclimate to the league and do end up getting better. Sure my examples are extremes, guys who ended up winning Superbowls. But nearly every rookie QB, just like most rookies, need time to develop and typically become better players over time. OBVIOUSLY not everybody. But a lot of players do. Theres nothing controversial about that.  

What about him?  Don’t see the relevance to this topic.

The relevance is that Geno was a QB who took time to develop. He always had the talent it just took time for the 'light to go on' as they say. And I brought him up in particular because it took him a loooong time.  

We will see. Yeah. And thats kind of my point. Lets see. 

If you say so. It’ll be hard to argue for an uncontested third year as starter, competition free, if he again finishes as the lowest producing QB in the NFL this year. Winning lord of games is, of course, the wildcard for that. As above, we shall see. Yeah. Let's see. You don't mess with a good thing. If the Jets are winning games, Zach WILL remain starter and the Jets won't spend extra cash bringing in legitimate competition. If the Jets take a nosedive, sure, bring in some competition. I'm not against that. Let's see the kid compete. Let's see him get benched if he's not up to the task.   

 

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16 minutes ago, PepPep said:

 

Yeah. Let's see. You don't mess with a good thing. If the Jets are winning games, Zach WILL remain starter and the Jets won't spend extra cash bringing in legitimate competition. If the Jets take a nosedive, sure, bring in some competition. I'm not against that. Let's see the kid compete. Let's see him get benched if he's not up to the task.    s

I'm not so sure.  These guys came from San Francisco who have been dying to move on from Jimmy G despite the fact that he keeps winning games.  That is after SF previously moved on from Alex Smith for Kaepernick and the Chiefs who were 50-26 moved on from Alex Smith who was coming off a 4000 (in 15 games) yard 26/5 67% season.

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37 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Aren't you clever. 

Not particularly on this.  It's pretty basic.

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I would argue MOST QBs take a year or two to acclimate to the league and do end up getting better. Sure my examples are extremes, guys who ended up winning Superbowls. But nearly every rookie QB, just like most rookies, need time to develop and typically become better players over time. OBVIOUSLY not everybody. But a lot of players do. Theres nothing controversial about that.  

You've moved the goalposts.  We not talking about just "improving".  We're talking about moving from the lowest producing QB in the NFL (Zach, at current) to be amongst guys YOU cited like Manning et al.   

Most young QB's fail to become great.  Even less produce at this low a level of passing production, and then become great.

A very small few do, so it's possible.  Just not likely or common. 

As we've agreed, we'll have to see if Zach is one of the very rare exceptions.  

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The relevance is that Geno was a QB who took time to develop. He always had the talent it just took time for the 'light to go on' as they say. And I brought him up in particular because it took him a loooong time.

Yeah, the extreme outlier than is Geno Smith has no real bearing on a "Zach is only 23, we need to give him more time" thread.  Sorry.

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You don't mess with a good thing. If the Jets are winning games, Zach WILL remain starter and the Jets won't spend extra cash bringing in legitimate competition.

I think that's a fair prediction.  If we finish the year and go, say, 4-4 the rest of the way, finishing 10-7, sure, Zach likely goes into 2023 as the uncontested starter again, even if he is still dead last in the NFL in passing production.  It'll be a risk, but one JD is likely to accept. 

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If the Jets take a nosedive, sure, bring in some competition. I'm not against that. Let's see the kid compete. Let's see him get benched if he's not up to the task. 

The real challenge is defining a "nosedive".  Zach could play/produce exactly as we have, and we could go 0-8 the rest of the way out.  He's really not the driver of our winning, the Defense and running game are first and foremost.  Turnovers would be the one way Zach COULD really move the needle on wins/losses, with New England game #1 being a great example.  No turnovers that game, we likely win.  With three, our D and RB's almost could have pulled it out. 

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7 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Mahomes destroys teams who blitz.  He also kills it even when the other team gets home without blitzing.  It's unreal.

Wilson will never be a franchise QB if he can't win from a muddy pocket.

He threw 68 times?! Good lord. And Malik Willis threw 16 times lol. 

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From Ted Nguyen’s article in the The Athletic:

“This season, Wilson has completed 21 percent of his passes under pressure, which ranks last out of 32 qualified QBs and is nearly 17 points lower than the next-worst quarterback, Kirk Cousins. One of Wilson’s best traits is his ability to throw off-platform, but he relies on this ability too often, at times unnecessarily so.”

 

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On 11/8/2022 at 2:11 PM, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

There’s more hope than there was a week ago with Wilson

But still lingering durability questions

And it’s just painful because Fields’ talent was so obvious and he got shafted by the weird predraft “process”

I mean he’s like Lamar Jackson except a better, more proven collegiate passer

Disagree. Hated him out of college. Had a horrible last game, and once they figure out his accuracy is not good, good defenses will stop the run and he will be worse than the others. His arm is not there. He is fast, but very likely to get injured with the types of plays he is making.

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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Wilson is getting far too much blame for the Jets offensive problems. 

Couple of things: 

1) It’s a weird year where passing is way down across the league. 

2) He’s played an absolute brutal schedule 

3) Jets have a lot of offensive problems beyond Wilson. Young talent they drafted on this side of the ball is either hurt (Hall, AVT, Becton) or underperforming (Mims and Moore). 
 

Wilson hasn’t been good and if the Jets are going to make the playoffs they will clearly need to get more out of their passing game. I just hate the narrative that an average QB makes this a top offense. 

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8 hours ago, JETS SB said:

Disagree. Hated him out of college. Had a horrible last game, and once they figure out his accuracy is not good, good defenses will stop the run and he will be worse than the others. His arm is not there. He is fast, but very likely to get injured with the types of plays he is making.

The knock on Lamar Jackson was he couldn’t throw, some some suggesting he should convert to TE or RB.

Justin Fields was one of the most accurate passers in the FBS and faced elite competition.

In order for “good defenses to stop the run” they have to stack the box, which opens up single coverage on the outside and deep shots with single high or even cover zero.

Lamar Jackson hasn’t been “figured out” in 5 years.  He is about to get a monster extension.

You can dislike whoever you want, but I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-chicago-bears-justin-fields-most-accurate-quarteback-ohio-state-pff-college-era

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2 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

The knock on Lamar Jackson was he couldn’t throw, some some suggesting he should convert to TE or RB.

Justin Fields was one of the most accurate passers in the FBS and faced elite competition.

In order for “good defenses to stop the run” they have to stack the box, which opens up single coverage on the outside and deep shots with single high or even cover zero.

Lamar Jackson hasn’t been “figured out” in 5 years.  He is about to get a monster extension.

You can dislike whoever you want, but I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-chicago-bears-justin-fields-most-accurate-quarteback-ohio-state-pff-college-era

Justin Fields will never be Lamar Jackson.

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5 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

LOL

 

2 and 3 are pretty impressive. First one really isn't, because Matthew Stafford is washed-up this year. He's not close to the same type of player. 

What Fields has done on a crappy Bears team this season though is nothing short of impressive. Hope we see something like this from Zach in the 2nd half of the season.

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On 11/9/2022 at 11:10 AM, #27TheDominator said:

You are fighting against an argument that isn't being made.  I don't think anybody in this thread said WIlson cannot improve.  We said him being the "2nd youngest starting QB" in the NFL is not really relevant - in addition to not being true.  Basically, all it means is that the 2022 class blows.  We all knew that.  He's older than Lance and Lawrence.  Is he young and can improve?  Of course.  Is his age some disadvantage he is courageously overcoming?  Certainly no more than Lawrence, who is actually younger.

2021

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