Cimini: Jets defense has “raw” feelings towards Zach

[maury77]

18 minutes ago, JiFields said:

lol, no.  Sign a veteran, I'm done with this team drafting QB's and the last few times I've participated in this type of debate, I was verbally abused and nobody has apologized after I was proven right yet again.

My bruises are hidden by my scars. 

Do both. 

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, maury77 said:

Do both. 

Fine but a late round flier.  No early investments 

[bla bla bla]

18 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Jimmy G is a horrible quarterback and Tom Brady is Hitler to this fanbase. Get a grip 

The only rational option is Gardner Minshew who is 27 years old and has a 4-1 career TD INT ratio 

I'd be totally fine with Minshew competing but I'd be lying if I said I wanted to hinge our next season on him.

[BigRy56]

Rightfully so. Zach has what, 7 games left to turn it around? He better get to work fast

[Stark]

15 minutes ago, JiFields said:

lol, no.  Sign a veteran, I'm done with this team drafting QB's and the last few times I've participated in this type of debate, I was verbally abused and nobody has apologized after I was proven right yet again.

My bruises are hidden by my scars. 

 

-----

 

 

 

[bla bla bla]

36 minutes ago, extmenace said:

His salary will hurt his trade value. Don’t think the packers can get a huge return for a declining qb making 50m a year. Maybe a first at most, but I have no idea what cap implications that may cause for the packers. Packers could be stuck with him.

His contract would cripple the Packers, it would be an easy contract for any team to take on thanks to the signing bonus

[BurntDice]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Carr just signed an extension with the Raiders.  (I don't care if he has an out clause after this year).

TB12 is the easiest plug-and-play fix if we're going for a veteran.

I want to win as much as anyone, but I 100% do NOT want Brady. Screw that guy. 

[Arsis]

1 hour ago, RevisIsland610 said:

Saleh is stubborn as sh*t. ZW will be starting next week and they will pretend he's not a terrible QB. 

Fire Saleh

[SR24]

I’d say the defense is pissed 

[bla bla bla]

2 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

I want to win as much as anyone, but I 100% do NOT want Brady. Screw that guy. 

I've always said the same. I'm not sure that's how I'd want to win a SB. That's purely a 1 year trial with a 46 year old QB. I think Brady will want to come here though and there is an argument that benching Wilson for a year to sit behind the goat is the only way that pick is salvaged.

[FidelioJet]

9 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

I'd be totally fine with Minshew competing but I'd be lying if I said I wanted to hinge our next season on him.

He's not the answer.  Not for next year.  He's a fine back up - but if you really have championship aspirations - you have to go all in to get someone better.

Give up 3 - 1st - spend $60mm a year etc...

If you believe the Jets defense is as good as what the fans seem to think

and 

You believe the Zach Wilson is as bad as what the fans seem to think 

Then that's the only play next year...

[doitny]

58 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

TB12 will be a UFA.  Rodgers would cost us (probably quite a bit).

TB12 HATES US. or do you only think Bill was the only Patriot that did?

if i remember right i think he was asked about going to the Jets when he was a FA a few years ago and he laughed and said no...no... 

there is a slight chance he would say yes if he hates Bill more than us to want to beat him 2 times a year. but i doubt that.

i cant imagine he went from freezing cold NE to nice sunny TB and want to go back to freezing again. its in the upper 70s this week in TB . he is probably going to relax in his pool after practice today. its going to be 42 today in NY. 

 

[WeCantDraftGoodQBs]

I especially wouldn’t blame the D-line after sacking the Pats 13 times during their 2 games for being pissed at Zach. I was lucky enough to have watched the famed New York Sack Exchange D-line of the early 80’s and let me tell you if they had 7 sacks against a team they always won that game. So the variable here is the play (or lack of) from our QB.

[peekskill68]

3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

I've always said the same. I'm not sure that's how I'd want to win a SB. That's purely a 1 year trial with a 46 year old QB. I think Brady will want to come here though and there is an argument that benching Wilson for a year to sit behind the goat is the only way that pick is salvaged.

I'm with @BurntDice.  Screw that guy. 

[TuscanyTile2]

2 minutes ago, doitny said:

TB12 HATES US. or do you only think Bill was the only Patriot that did?

if i remember right i think he was asked about going to the Jets when he was a FA a few years ago and he laughed and said no...no... 

there is a slight chance he would say yes if he hates Bill more than us to want to beat him 2 times a year. but i doubt that.

i cant imagine he went from freezing cold NE to nice sunny TB and want to go back to freezing again. its in the upper 70s this week in TB . he is probably going to relax in his pool after practice today. its going to be 42 today in NY. 

 

As far as cold weather, it's the NFL.  Even if you play your home games in Tampa, you still can play road games in cold weather.

As for TB12 hating us, he also loves football.  And if he wants to continue his career, he's going to go where he'll have the best chance to win another Super Bowl.  And of those limited options, the Jets might well have the best situation for him.  I don't think this is as far-fetched as some might think.

[dbatesman]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

He's not the answer.  Not for next year.  He's a fine back up - but if you really have championship aspirations - you have to go all in to get someone better.

Give up 3 - 1st - spend $60mm a year etc...

If you believe the Jets defense is as good as what the fans seem to think

and 

You believe the Zach Wilson is as bad as what the fans seem to think 

Then that's the only play next year...

You're inverting cause and effect. The reason to go get a QB isn't because the defense will be elite again next year; it's because it probably won't be. Defensive performance is very difficult to replicate year to year. The defense has enough talent that it won't fall off a cliff next year (barring a slew of injuries), but odds are it won't be a top-5 unit again. That's why the QB is key: passing offense tends to be very consistent year to year, so it serves as an insulator against the normal fluctuations in defense/ST/running game. I can't ******* believe we blew it again.

[Chrebetfan80]

1 hour ago, JiFields said:

The lack of awareness in this situation is alarming and I'd be offended too, G. Wilson said it wasnt good enough, Saleh called it dog sh*t and Zach was like nah, it was the wind.  He's the leader of the team and he took no accountability.  He just made Saleh's job that much harder, not sure how he smooths this over to be honest.  

 

This is the thing.. And this is the problem that this presents is not just that he stunk up the joint yesterday, but the stark lack of accountability is alarming. 

I can understand a bad game, even as bad as that, but there is no excuse for a lack of accountability.  And that is what is going to be the ultimate issue for this team going forward.  Saleh cant bench Zach right now, if you do, youre losing him for good and probably looking to trade him off for next to nothing. I don't think you can afford to do that even if it ultimately is the best move to make.  BUT if you keep starting him and he continues this downward spiral, you risk torpedoing your extremely promising (and frankly somewhat surprising) season and losing the entire locker room.  This is a delicate dance and one that will ultimately define the type of HC Saleh can become.  

As a coach, in this situation there is only one way to handle this.  Saleh, JD, Wilson, and all the leaders on the team need an in house meeting to air grievances and to make Zach understand the gravity of the situation and to discuss his lack of accountability.  From there, Zach must make a statement to the entire team both apologizing, and taking accountability for the loss.  

Once this is done, it is understood there is a short leash going forward.  He must continue to display the attributes of a leader, and perform at a level that is respectable to maintain his position, or make it understood that going forward if these are not met he will be sitting.  

That is the only way to handle it in my opinion.  Just flat out benching him, or flat out starting him and ignoring the issue will be catastrophic either way.  I understand fans opinion of just benching him because he's A) Awful right now, and B ) a complete prick with his statements, however it does no one any good to do that.  This needs to play out another week or two before a decision is made, because once one is, that decision must be stuck with for the rest of the year.  AND if that decision is to bench Zach, know that next year you are saying we are open business for a QB and have to go in search of a veteran to compete with Zach in camp.  

[Rhg1084]

another guy who didn’t “mean” to like a anti Zach tweet lol

[FidelioJet]

23 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

You're inverting cause and effect. The reason to go get a QB isn't because the defense will be elite again next year; it's because it probably won't be. Defensive performance is very difficult to replicate year to year. The defense has enough talent that it won't fall off a cliff next year (barring a slew of injuries), but odds are it won't be a top-5 unit again. That's why the QB is key: passing offense tends to be very consistent year to year, so it serves as an insulator against the normal fluctuations in defense/ST/running game. I can't ******* believe we blew it again.

I mostly don't disagree with what you're saying - All I was saying is Gardner Minschew is the answer to the consistent offense problems.

Where I do disagree is the Jets have a very small window where they can keep this defense together and afford to do so.

With Q, Sauce, Reed, JJ, Lawson, Huff etc - all young, all cheap...

This D should absolutely be expected to be top tier again next year.  

Either way though - Mindschew isn't the answer if you do have a top defense next year, Mindschew isn't the answer if you don't have a top defense next year.

The only way Mindschew should be on the team next year is if he comes in as the #2 QB.

 

[bla bla bla]

Just now, Rhg1084 said:

another guy who didn’t “mean” to like a anti Zach tweet lol

[Biggs]

46 minutes ago, JiFields said:

lol, no.  Sign a veteran, I'm done with this team drafting QB's and the last few times I've participated in this type of debate, I was verbally abused and nobody has apologized after I was proven right yet again.

My bruises are hidden by my scars. 

I think you should seek a restraining order.  

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Rhg1084 said:

 

The Jets D just put up an amazing performance.  Keeping the Pats to 3 points.

And we still lost.  

There are days where I truly feel we're all stuck in a Twilight Zone episode, where we're stuck repeating the same things over, and over, and over....

It feels like we've been poor at Offense forever now.  And that while we're often pretty good (even great at times) on Defense over the years, we're rarely ever any good at offense, gaining yards, or scoring points.

And he we are again, 22/28 in points/yards.  And we're still 6-4, almost all on the back of the Defense and Breece Hall (pre-injury).

Our supposed Franchise QB?  Worse that all the previous failed drafted wanna-be Franchise QB's.

Completion Percentage?  Dead last in the NFL at 55.6%
TD Pass %?  2nd to last at 2.1%.  Only Pickett is worse.
Passing Yards per Game?  31st, at 182.7 YPG.
QB Rating?  34th, at 71.8.  Again, only Pickett is worse.

You cannot be worse at producing at QB than Zach Wilson has been since he first arrived.  Let me repeat that till is sinks in for some folks:  You cannot be worse at producing at QB than Zach Wilson has been since he arrived. 

Think of all the busts so many of you said "sucked".  Almost every one of them was more productive at QB than Zach Wilson.  Including Sam Darnold, Geno Smith and Mark Sanchez.

I'm done with dreams of "if we have patience, he'll be Josh Allen".  There is nothing similar between those two players.   

Something has to change, or we're going to waste a year (in 2022) that should be a post-season year, and maybe worse, we're going to burn 2023 yet again "seeing what we got" in Zach f'ing Wilson.

Great teams see their mistakes early and change course.  

It's time we start looking at changing course.

[Grandy]

Just now, Rhg1084 said:

another guy who didn’t “mean” to like a anti Zach tweet lol

Sauce and JFM are amongst the most respected on the team. This has been such a terrible look for Wilson. It's gonna unravel soon unless things inexplicably take a 180.

[Biggs]

I think Douglas should quietly hire Shawn Payton as a consultant to evaluate Zach, Lefleur and what the best option is moving forward.  

[Ex-Rex]

1 hour ago, VJphillyfan said:

Signing Brady is maybe the one chance I will ever have of seeing this Godforsaken franchise winning a super bowl.

Did you not hear Brady a few years ago say "I hate the Jets" so you think he's coming here? 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

I don’t blame these guys like Sauce or JFM at all 

How would you feel if you had a playoff defense but your blind HC insists on playing blond Jamarcus Russell

 

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

This is the thing.. And this is the problem that this presents is not just that he stunk up the joint yesterday, but the stark lack of accountability is alarming. 

I can understand a bad game, even as bad as that, but there is no excuse for a lack of accountability.  And that is what is going to be the ultimate issue for this team going forward.  Saleh cant bench Zach right now, if you do, youre losing him for good and probably looking to trade him off for next to nothing. I don't think you can afford to do that even if it ultimately is the best move to make.  BUT if you keep starting him and he continues this downward spiral, you risk torpedoing your extremely promising (and frankly somewhat surprising) season and losing the entire locker room.  This is a delicate dance and one that will ultimately define the type of HC Saleh can become.  

As a coach, in this situation there is only one way to handle this.  Saleh, JD, Wilson, and all the leaders on the team need an in house meeting to air grievances and to make Zach understand the gravity of the situation and to discuss his lack of accountability.  From there, Zach must make a statement to the entire team both apologizing, and taking accountability for the loss.  

Once this is done, it is understood there is a short leash going forward.  He must continue to display the attributes of a leader, and perform at a level that is respectable to maintain his position, or make it understood that going forward if these are not met he will be sitting.  

That is the only way to handle it in my opinion.  Just flat out benching him, or flat out starting him and ignoring the issue will be catastrophic either way.  I understand fans opinion of just benching him because he's A) Awful right now, and B ) a complete prick with his statements, however it does no one any good to do that.  This needs to play out another week or two before a decision is made, because once one is, that decision must be stuck with for the rest of the year.  AND if that decision is to bench Zach, know that next year you are saying we are open business for a QB and have to go in search of a veteran to compete with Zach in camp.  

I'm going to try and put a little nuance into this without this coming across as me making excuses for Zach....But I think it's more than just - Zach you sucked so it's your fault.

Saleh has be preaching and Zach repeating - over and over again that Zach was just a small piece of the puzzle.  The "What we're trying to do"....

Zach was asked to play safe, Zach was asked to not take chances, Zach was asked to not lose the game...

I'm sure Saleh's been in his ear all season - you don't let the team down - let the team carry you (we'll pick you up, you don't have to pick us up)

So when Zach buys into this - and does what he's asked....you can't just turn around and now say - It's all your F-ing fault.

The running game was supposed to be what carries this team...the running game was as bad as the passing game.

With that said - of course Zach should step up and say - Yes, I take responsibility - it's on me - I need to be better.  No sure why he didn't.  Not saying Zach wasn't bad he was.  Not saying Zach doesn't deserve the blame - he does.

Just saying their more nuance here than we're recognizing.

[Ex-Rex]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The Jets D just put up an amazing performance.  Keeping the Pats to 3 points.

And we still lost.  

There are days where I truly feel we're all stuck in a Twilight Zone episode, where we're stuck repeating the same things over, and over, and over....

It feels like we've been poor at Offense forever now.  And that while we're often pretty good (even great at times) on Defense over the years, we're rarely ever any good at offense, gaining yards, or scoring points.

And he we are again, 22/28 in points/yards.  And we're still 6-4, almost all on the back of the Defense and Breece Hall (pre-injury).

Our supposed Franchise QB?  Worse that all the previous failed drafted wanna-be Franchise QB's.

Completion Percentage?  Dead last in the NFL at 55.6%
TD Pass %?  2nd to last at 2.1%.  Only Pickett is worse.
Passing Yards per Game?  31st, at 182.7 YPG.
QB Rating?  34th, at 71.8.  Again, only Pickett is worse.

You cannot be worse at producing at QB than Zach Wilson has been since he first arrived.  Let me repeat that till is sinks in for some folks:  You cannot be worse at producing at QB than Zach Wilson has been since he arrived. 

Think of all the busts so many of you said "sucked".  Almost every one of them was more productive at QB than Zach Wilson.  Including Sam Darnold, Geno Smith and Mark Sanchez.

I'm done with dreams of "if we have patience, he'll be Josh Allen".  There is nothing similar between those two players.   

Something has to change, or we're going to waste a year (in 2022) that should be a post-season year, and maybe worse, we're going to burn 2023 yet again "seeing what we got" in Zach f'ing Wilson.

Great teams see their mistakes early and change course.  

It's time we start looking at changing course.

Robert Saleh does not seem to be a "change course" kind of guy. I think he will stick with the baby face loser of a QB until it costs him his reputation and job. Wilson may drag JD down as well. WTF did they see in this kid? Arm talent? IDK he isn't very accurate at all especially when he thinks he is Patrick Mahomes and throws sailing balls sidearm. The Jets cannot seem to identify the traits that make a good QB.

[Jet25]

[FidelioJet]

8 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The Jets D just put up an amazing performance.  Keeping the Pats to 3 points.

And we still lost.  

There are days where I truly feel we're all stuck in a Twilight Zone episode, where we're stuck repeating the same things over, and over, and over....

It feels like we've been poor at Offense forever now.  And that while we're often pretty good (even great at times) on Defense over the years, we're rarely ever any good at offense, gaining yards, or scoring points.

And he we are again, 22/28 in points/yards.  And we're still 6-4, almost all on the back of the Defense and Breece Hall (pre-injury).

Our supposed Franchise QB?  Worse that all the previous failed drafted wanna-be Franchise QB's.

Completion Percentage?  Dead last in the NFL at 55.6%
TD Pass %?  2nd to last at 2.1%.  Only Pickett is worse.
Passing Yards per Game?  31st, at 182.7 YPG.
QB Rating?  34th, at 71.8.  Again, only Pickett is worse.

You cannot be worse at producing at QB than Zach Wilson has been since he first arrived.  Let me repeat that till is sinks in for some folks:  You cannot be worse at producing at QB than Zach Wilson has been since he arrived. 

Think of all the busts so many of you said "sucked".  Almost every one of them was more productive at QB than Zach Wilson.  Including Sam Darnold, Geno Smith and Mark Sanchez.

I'm done with dreams of "if we have patience, he'll be Josh Allen".  There is nothing similar between those two players.   

Something has to change, or we're going to waste a year (in 2022) that should be a post-season year, and maybe worse, we're going to burn 2023 yet again "seeing what we got" in Zach f'ing Wilson.

Great teams see their mistakes early and change course.  

It's time we start looking at changing course.

Yup!

[ZachStepdad]

9 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

This is the thing.. And this is the problem that this presents is not just that he stunk up the joint yesterday, but the stark lack of accountability is alarming. 

I can understand a bad game, even as bad as that, but there is no excuse for a lack of accountability.  And that is what is going to be the ultimate issue for this team going forward.  Saleh cant bench Zach right now, if you do, youre losing him for good and probably looking to trade him off for next to nothing. I don't think you can afford to do that even if it ultimately is the best move to make.  BUT if you keep starting him and he continues this downward spiral, you risk torpedoing your extremely promising (and frankly somewhat surprising) season and losing the entire locker room.  This is a delicate dance and one that will ultimately define the type of HC Saleh can become.  

As a coach, in this situation there is only one way to handle this.  Saleh, JD, Wilson, and all the leaders on the team need an in house meeting to air grievances and to make Zach understand the gravity of the situation and to discuss his lack of accountability.  From there, Zach must make a statement to the entire team both apologizing, and taking accountability for the loss.  

Once this is done, it is understood there is a short leash going forward.  He must continue to display the attributes of a leader, and perform at a level that is respectable to maintain his position, or make it understood that going forward if these are not met he will be sitting.  

That is the only way to handle it in my opinion.  Just flat out benching him, or flat out starting him and ignoring the issue will be catastrophic either way.  I understand fans opinion of just benching him because he's A) Awful right now, and B ) a complete prick with his statements, however it does no one any good to do that.  This needs to play out another week or two before a decision is made, because once one is, that decision must be stuck with for the rest of the year.  AND if that decision is to bench Zach, know that next year you are saying we are open business for a QB and have to go in search of a veteran to compete with Zach in camp.  

There’s no problem with just benching Zach for a game or few, the greatest coach of all time in Belicheck just did that this season with jones and went back to him and pulling out wins …. I feel like people are overthinking this benching stuff and thinking if he’s benched it’s all over for him on this team

[peekskill68]

6 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I think Douglas should quietly hire Shawn Payton as a consultant to evaluate Zach, Lefleur and what the best option is moving forward.  

Not sure I understand the LaFleur hate that seems to be creeping in.  Seems pretty clear he was scheming guys open and Zach just didn't execute.  I'm sure Zach's struggles had to affect his play calling too

[TuscanyTile2]

59 minutes ago, JiFields said:

lol, no.  Sign a veteran, I'm done with this team drafting QB's and the last few times I've participated in this type of debate, I was verbally abused and nobody has apologized after I was proven right yet again.

My bruises are hidden by my scars. 

 

[Chrebetfan80]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm going to try and put a little nuance into this without this coming across as me making excuses for Zach....But I think it's more than just - Zach you sucked so it's your fault.

Saleh has be preaching and Zach repeating - over and over again that Zach was just a small piece of the puzzle.  The "What we're trying to do"....

Zach was asked to play safe, Zach was asked to not take chances, Zach was asked to not lose the game...

I'm sure Saleh's been in his ear all season - you don't let the team down - let the team carry you (we'll pick you up, you don't have to pick us up)

So when Zach buys into this - and does what he's asked....you can't just turn around and now say - It's all your F-ing fault.

The running game was supposed to be what carries this team...the running game was as bad as the passing game.

With that said - of course Zach should step up and say - Yes, I take responsibility - it's on me - I need to be better.  No sure why he didn't.  Not saying Zach wasn't bad he was.  Not saying Zach doesn't deserve the blame - he does.

Just saying their more nuance here than we're recognizing.

That's a really great point and something that shouldnt go as understated.  Now, I dont think he legitimately didnt take shots down field because he was playing it safe, he just flat out didnt see guys in his progressions.  There were a number of plays that he just flat out missed, either with awful throws (over and under) or just not going through progressions.  

But the point is well stated, the running game is going to be what carries this team, and there was a distinct shift in the running game yesterday that hurt us alot.  I've spoken to this before, but shifting to a gap scheme running attack is what opened this offense up a little.  Yesterday, not only were they terrible in the very few attempts to run any gap scheme runs (i blame no herbig on that, feeny is just not good enough) but they ran a lot more stretch and inside zone than they have been the last few weeks, and it reallllllly hurt the offensive approach in my opinion.  

Zach had a really bad game dont get me wrong.  Unsettled footwork, late decisions with the ball, missed reads in his progression, terrible ball placement on most throws.  Over and under throws that killed drive starters.  But also, the play design and calling this game left a lottttt to be desired.  I thought the gameplan going in was actually really not a great one overall.  

Theres a lot of blame to go around for this loss.  A ton falls on Zach, but it should be recognized that not all of it falls on him here.  

[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, RevisIsland610 said:

Saleh is stubborn as sh*t. ZW will be starting next week and they will pretend he's not a terrible QB. 

No next week Zach is going to have a serviceable game vs the worst defense in the NFL and its going to be considered a great game . I'm not sure the Jets can beat the Bears. 

I just hope to God we hear chants for Mike White loud and clear. 

Maybe Fireman Ed can start a new chant 

M-I-K-E -- White White White