A Pragmatic Mike White Thread

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Well that is pretty damn good. I don't think White has that much of a better arm.

Then Chad? 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

You just never know.

Once upon a time, Kurt Warner was bagging groceries at Safeway.

Draft stock doesn’t mean sh-t once they get on the field.

And at a bare freaking minimum, MFW has shown he’s more than capable of running an NFL offense.

Meanwhile, I doubt Zach Wilson could run a lemonade stand.

[SoFlaJets]

12 hours ago, football guy said:

A better “football” arm; ability to make more throws from different arm angles and with a quicker release

Superior athlete 

Superior pocket mobility/escapability 

Elite field vision

Elite precision/placement 

Elite timing/anticipation 

Playmaking ability outside of structure 

What are you basing your analysis of White on Mister Football Guy? Wait, let me take a wild guess and answer my own question. The Bills game last year when the Jets we nothing like that team, first of all this Jets team doesn't look to me like the kind of a squad that is going to be down by 3 TDs and more after each pick. It was a case of a kid trying to do too much. He talked about that and how he has learned from those mistakes. Again, the Patriots blowout the Jets defense  THIS Jets defense isn't going to allow Mac Jones to score 54 points on them and if they do luck out and make it into the playoffs the Jets WILL get their revenge. 

Besides who frigging cares about any comparisons between White and the Bengals QB.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

11 hours ago, Asymmetrical said:

His arm is likely a limitation. He doesn't really seem eager to push it deep or into tighter windows, likely for that reason.  Refreshing change of pace from the limitation being "cannot complete a pass at all". 

I’ll keep saying it but did anyone catch the first pass to Moore yesterday.  Tight window, great throw.

Agree arm isn’t elite and these throws aren’t his preference, but that throw was a thing of beauty!

[talisaynon]

I mean guys, he had about 3 passes yesterday that were close to intercepted. Granted we still probably win -- but today were talking about a 24-23 type victory instead of the hurting we put on the bears yesterday.

Some of those passes could have gone the other way, he threw into double coverage about 2 times, he's clearly still got issues.

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, talisaynon said:

I mean guys, he had about 3 passes yesterday that were close to intercepted. Granted we still probably win -- but today were talking about a 24-23 type victory instead of the hurting we put on the bears yesterday.

Some of those passes could have gone the other way, he threw into double coverage about 2 times, he's clearly still got issues.

In the pouring rain he did amazing.  

[Dunnie]

- i should clarify .. pre destroyed wrist - Chad ... Watch Chad's college tape throwing to Randy Moss.

[#27TheDominator]

To me the biggest thing White does is get rid of the ball decisively.  He threw a couple of slants into coverage, but he got them off quickly.  I think what makes them work, more than the "tight window" sh*t we hear spouted all day, is that he throws them quick and on time.  The WR is ready and the DB is not.  It is much easier to catch when the ball is where you expect it, when you expect it.  A couple of the incompletions were throws like that to Davis.  Davis has not been playing and probably had less practice time than the others.

To me, that and the constantly resetting his feet were the most glaring differences with Wilson.  When White moved in the pocket, he reset his feet.  When he switched from looking deep to checking down, he reset his feet.  Wilson tended to act like his feet and arm were completely unconnected in any way.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

To me the biggest thing White does is get rid of the ball decisively.  He threw a couple of slants into coverage, but he got them off quickly.  I think what makes them work, more than the "tight window" sh*t we hear spouted all day, is that he throws them quick and on time.  The WR is ready and the DB is not.  It is much easier to catch when the ball is where you expect it, when you expect it.  A couple of the incompletions were throws like that to Davis.  Davis has not been playing and probably had less practice time than the others.

To me, that and the constantly resetting his feet were the most glaring differences with Wilson.  When White moved in the pocket, he reset his feet.  When he switched from looking deep to checking down, he reset his feet.  Wilson tended to act like his feet and arm were completely unconnected in any way.

Also white is more than willing to take a short completion rather than scramble aimlessly or chuck a ball into triple coverage.  He understands the risk/reward and will take 2nd and 8 if that’s the only play available. 

[TuscanyTile2]

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

I think we’re seeing what he is, but perhaps he can become a better version of it.  Reminds me of joe Montana, the smooth playing style, the way he get the ball out calmly with a spiral.  

Great call! The way MW throws accurate passes while rolling out is also very reminiscent of Montana. 

Obviously nobody is comparing MW to Montana overall.  Just that the style of play is similar.  

[T0mShane]

48 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

The key to being a great QB or even a good QB is not just in the hands of the QB sometimes your receivers have got to bail you out. That's why you see the great QB's have a relationship with their great receivers. Manning/Harrison come to mind Rodgers/Adams come to mind (theres many others) you know that guy who is obviously covered but the QB trusts them enough to win the Battle for the football. White will develop that trust with someone on this team soon enough and that's when you will see more growth.

White has to be afforded the same chance to grow as Zach Wilson, not because of where he was drafted but because he went out and earned it . Whites going to deal with the same things every QB in this league deals with, even the greats, he's gonna throw an Int and he's gonna have a tough game here and there and he will learn from both just like he said he learned from the Bills game last year. He can't just be tossed aside like he was last year for one bad outing or some bad plays. Last year it was Obvious why Zach got back in there. This year ? Not so much

I think what we’ve learned from everything coming out about Mike White, including the on-field performance, is that the benching of him after last year’s Bills game was entirely political, and done in deference to Zach Wilson’s feelings. 

[Warfish]

44 minutes ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

I’ll keep saying it but did anyone catch the first pass to Moore yesterday.  Tight window, great throw.

Agree arm isn’t elite and these throws aren’t his preference, but that throw was a thing of beauty!

Joe Montana didn't have an elite arm either.  And yes, it was a great throw!

Mike White, like Chad Pennington (pre-injury) and like Joe Montana in this aspect, has enough arm to be a good NFL QB...if he is exceptional in other areas.  Like timing, decision making, field vision, etc.   Which he has been pretty darn good now several times. 

You do not need an elite arm to be a great NFL QB.  Just ask Jeff George or the many other bazooka-arm'ed guys who weren't so great.

The obsession (in this modern era) with "elite physical measurables" and those silly draft scores everyone gets all worked up over, instead of actual on-field production is part of the problem.  White produces.  But lacks some measurables.  Zach doesn't produce, but that "elite arm talent" makes some fans swoon anyway.  

The strongest arm =/= the best QB.

[Gastineau Lives]

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

 Reminds me of joe Montana, 

Holy shmanolies

[Augustiniak]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think what we’ve learned from everything coming out about Mike White, including the on-field performance, is that the benching of him after last year’s Bills game was entirely political, and done in deference to Zach Wilson’s feelings. 

I think increasingly the qb decisions here have been political with the gm hoping that ZW would grow into the role, but the players always knew MW was better so this week was a real vindication for LAF and the wrs in particular.  ZW was able to hide behind the defense and breece hall but the 2 NE games left the coaches no choice.  For the first time the jets have a gm and hc in lockstep so saleh is going to try to pump up guys like becton and zW more than a guy like gase

[y2k8]

10 hours ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

mike whites ceiling is Chad Pennington with a better arm

Zach Wilson's ceiling is Browning Nagle with better cheek bones.

[talisaynon]

BTW Bears reddit forum is laughing at us celebrating White over Wilson knowing they have a historically bad defense.

[y2k8]

3 minutes ago, talisaynon said:

BTW Bears reddit forum is laughing at us celebrating White over Wilson knowing they have a historically bad defense.

Yeah, well, we're 7-4 and they are nowhere, so.. HA HA HA

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, talisaynon said:

BTW Bears reddit forum is laughing at us celebrating White over Wilson knowing they have a historically bad defense.

Reminds of every single game that Brady and NE beat us the past 15 years yet still celebrated their a**** off.

[Warfish]

8 minutes ago, talisaynon said:

BTW Bears reddit forum is laughing at us celebrating White over Wilson knowing they have a historically bad defense.

You went to/follow Bears Reddit just to find reasons not to be happy about yesterday?  That seems odd.

[#27TheDominator]

17 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I think increasingly the qb decisions here have been political with the gm hoping that ZW would grow into the role, but the players always knew MW was better so this week was a real vindication for LAF and the wrs in particular.  ZW was able to hide behind the defense and breece hall but the 2 NE games left the coaches no choice.  For the first time the jets have a gm and hc in lockstep so saleh is going to try to pump up guys like becton and zW more than a guy like gase

I think it makes sense there is some political and "mental health" aspects to the QB decision.   They have to think long term and WIlson was quite an asset to give up on.  The saving grace from where I sit is that LaFleur supposedly was behind this switch and is team Mike White.  I don't like backbiting or dissension among coaches, but at least when we sit there wondering how the coaches can't see how obvious this switch was, the OC should be the one with the best finger on it and he doesn't seem clueless.

[JiF]

27 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

To me the biggest thing White does is get rid of the ball decisively.  He threw a couple of slants into coverage, but he got them off quickly.  I think what makes them work, more than the "tight window" sh*t we hear spouted all day, is that he throws them quick and on time.  The WR is ready and the DB is not.  It is much easier to catch when the ball is where you expect it, when you expect it.  A couple of the incompletions were throws like that to Davis.  Davis has not been playing and probably had less practice time than the others.

To me, that and the constantly resetting his feet were the most glaring differences with Wilson.  When White moved in the pocket, he reset his feet.  When he switched from looking deep to checking down, he reset his feet.  Wilson tended to act like his feet and arm were completely unconnected in any way.

Agreed but also, just getting the drop backs right, not fading and drifting and bailing, keeps everything on time and actually allows the play to develop the way it was designed, which leads to getting the ball when you're expecting at the right time.  I think he anticipates very well which makes him very decisive in terms of not only getting it out fast but also, when to press the D downfield vs. take the check down, etc.  

What impressed me the most was his ball placement, in the pouring rain.  He was putting the ball on the spot, requiring very little effort and providing big YAC opportunity.

 

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think it makes sense there is some political and "mental health" aspects to the QB decision.   They have to think long term and WIlson was quite an asset to give up on.  The saving grace from where I sit is that LaFleur supposedly was behind this switch and is team Mike White.  I don't like backbiting or dissension among coaches, but at least when we sit there wondering how the coaches can't see how obvious this switch was, the OC should be the one with the best finger on it and he doesn't seem clueless.

The results are obvious.  In the rain yesterday, if we had to project how that game would have unfolded if ZW had played, it would have been closer, the jets likely would have had at least 1 turnover and they may not have won.  

I do think the coaches realized that once they made the switch, the change in production would be such that they would not be able to go back unless there’s an injury.  I also don’t think they would have changed qbs if the team were 3-7.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, JiFields said:

Agreed but also, just getting the drop backs right, not fading and drifting and bailing, keeps everything on time and actually allows the play to develop the way it was designed, which leads to getting the ball when you're expecting at the right time.  I think he anticipates very well which makes him very decisive in terms of not only getting it out fast but also, when to press the D downfield vs. take the check down, etc.  

What impressed me the most was his ball placement, in the pouring rain.  He was putting the ball on the spot, requiring very little effort and providing big YAC opportunity.

 

Watching white in the rain, you realize this is truly a qb friendly offense and that ZW’s performance in NE is hard to accomplish.  There’s definitely a maturity element holding ZW back, but now he’s clearly not the starter and if MW can get the team to the playoffs he’ll enter next season as the starter and wilson will be an afterthought.

[SoFlaJets]

51 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

To me the biggest thing White does is get rid of the ball decisively.  He threw a couple of slants into coverage, but he got them off quickly.  I think what makes them work, more than the "tight window" sh*t we hear spouted all day, is that he throws them quick and on time.  The WR is ready and the DB is not.  It is much easier to catch when the ball is where you expect it, when you expect it.  A couple of the incompletions were throws like that to Davis.  Davis has not been playing and probably had less practice time than the others.

To me, that and the constantly resetting his feet were the most glaring differences with Wilson.  When White moved in the pocket, he reset his feet.  When he switched from looking deep to checking down, he reset his feet.  Wilson tended to act like his feet and arm were completely unconnected in any way.

I saw a couple of plays that were 5 times worse than the Def PI call on Sauce and that second one to Davis was an unbelievably bad non call. the guys was ON HIS BACK pulling Davis' arms apart making it impossible for him catch it unless his belly button grew hands

[#27TheDominator]

17 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Watching white in the rain, you realize this is truly a qb friendly offense and that ZW’s performance in NE is hard to accomplish.  There’s definitely a maturity element holding ZW back, but now he’s clearly not the starter and if MW can get the team to the playoffs he’ll enter next season as the starter and wilson will be an afterthought.

I"m not so sure about this.  Garoppolo took the Niners to the postseason a few times and they seem like they have been dying to move on from him for years.  He is 37-17 there, 5-2 in the playoffs and they don't seem too attached.  I think these guys feel like the system works, so they just need somebody that can run it.  That is where the big frustration comes in with Wilson.

[Bruce Harper]

I love these threads started by the fun patrol.  "Don't enjoy yourselves too much, guys."

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I"m not so sure about this.  Garoppolo took the Niners to the postseason a few times and they seem like they have been dying to move on from him for years.  He is 37-17 there, 5-2 in the playoffs and they don't seem too attached.  I think these guys feel like the system works, so they just need somebody that can run it.  That is where the big frustration comes in with Wilson.

Remember that they lost a super bowl with him and may feel he just can’t get them over the hump.  The jets coaches are trying to take the worst team in the nfl to the playoffs and may gladly take an efficient game manager to accomplish this, and then worry about improving the position with either a reprogrammed wilson or someone else.  

[JiF]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Watching white in the rain, you realize this is truly a qb friendly offense and that ZW’s performance in NE is hard to accomplish.  There’s definitely a maturity element holding ZW back, but now he’s clearly not the starter and if MW can get the team to the playoffs he’ll enter next season as the starter and wilson will be an afterthought.

For sure, the film was very telling from that game.  Guys wide open all over the place, first read, elementary level and Zach scared to pull the trigger.  

[talisaynon]

48 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You went to/follow Bears Reddit just to find reasons not to be happy about yesterday?  That seems odd.

I go to opposing teams boards to see their opinion of our team when we win

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Remember that they lost a super bowl with him and may feel he just can’t get them over the hump.  The jets coaches are trying to take the worst team in the nfl to the playoffs and may gladly take an efficient game manager to accomplish this, and then worry about improving the position with either a reprogrammed wilson or someone else.  

Doesn't the bold directly contradict...

36 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Watching white in the rain, you realize this is truly a qb friendly offense and that ZW’s performance in NE is hard to accomplish.  There’s definitely a maturity element holding ZW back, but now he’s clearly not the starter and if MW can get the team to the playoffs he’ll enter next season as the starter and wilson will be an afterthought.

the bold?  This is what I was disputing.

[GreenReaper]

Does White get the Jets a W against Pats in foxboro?  IMO...yea.  Also in the that home game vs Pats too.  

Arm strength...mobility...efficiency = best chance for Jets to get a W.  

Zach Wilson could be done as NYJ QB rest of season.  And maybe forever.

Don't know if White is the long term answer.  But he answers the bell for remainder of this year for sure.

Mike White is a great story.  Hope it continues.

Goo White...goo Jets Baby!

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Doesn't the bold directly contradict...

the bold?  This is what I was disputing.

If white leads the jets to the playoffs, i believe it will be very difficult for wilson to unseat him as the starter, b/c he’d have to be decisively better.  In theory, they would prefer Wilson’s physical skill sets, but based on what we’ve seen, there’s a long way to go to reign in those skills to execute this offense.  

[Arsis]

10 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

If white leads the jets to the playoffs, i believe it will be very difficult for wilson to unseat him as the starter, b/c he’d have to be decisively better.  In theory, they would prefer Wilson’s physical skill sets, but based on what we’ve seen, there’s a long way to go to reign in those skills to execute this offense.  

What physical skill set? I've never seen a single impressive throw from Zack.

[David Harris]

13 hours ago, football guy said:

They’re vastly different players stylistically. His ceiling isn’t Tom Brady but that’s what his game resembles more of. 

If everything went right for him, I would say his ceiling is something closer to Matt Schaub. Again, not an insult either. Schaub had stellar years in a similar offense under Gary Kubiak from 2007-13 and they are very similar in terms of their playing style and talent. 

How about a Jimmy Garopolo comp.  The QB with limitations we were just drooling over.  A qb who just wins with a good supporting cast by making the right decisions with accuracy and decisiveness.  

Or maybe a maxed out Mac Jones - the guy Shanahan wanted to draft #3 overall to run his offense before the media crushed the possibility.

Zach's physical ability is off the charts, if he can learn the Mike White game while having that it's the best case scenario.  But his 20 game stats put him in Jamarcus Russell territory.  If ZW turns it around he'd be an outlier. 

[football guy]

2 hours ago, SoFlaJets said:

What are you basing your analysis of White on Mister Football Guy? Wait, let me take a wild guess and answer my own question. The Bills game last year when the Jets we nothing like that team, first of all this Jets team doesn't look to me like the kind of a squad that is going to be down by 3 TDs and more after each pick. It was a case of a kid trying to do too much. He talked about that and how he has learned from those mistakes. Again, the Patriots blowout the Jets defense  THIS Jets defense isn't going to allow Mac Jones to score 54 points on them and if they do luck out and make it into the playoffs the Jets WILL get their revenge. 

Besides who frigging cares about any comparisons between White and the Bengals QB.

When you watch a football game, do you watch the players play or do you just yell and scream when good/bad things happen? Do you statsterbate or do you watch the players play?

Mike White deserves plenty of praise. He does not deserve to be judged on his worst performance either. The reality is that he's a limited quarterback who has found comfort in the system we run. He "makes the easy look easy" as coach said. He's the best kind of backup QB anyone can ask for, and he may even be able to play his way into being a long-term starter if all goes right for him and around him. But please, for the love of god, can we just be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that Mike White is not Joe Burrow???

Mike White is likely Nick Foles. Nick Foles went on to win the Eagles a Superbowl. Lets hope White can do the same while acknowledging that he has limitations which will likely prevent him from being able to sustain elite-level success long-term.