A Pragmatic Mike White Thread

[PepPep]

16 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Please rename thread title to "Zach Wilson Fan Doing Mental Gymnastics"

 

How is any of this 'mental gymnastics'?? Stop trolling. 

Mike had an excellent game today ... made no mistakes .. was effective and efficient. This is 100% correct. He had an excellent game. He didn't break any records. He didn't do anything otherworldly. He played great, mistake free football. Efficient and effective. Can you pour on some more praise? Sure. Can you minimize his performance a bit more? Sure. But this is not mental gymnastics by some crazed Zach Wilson fan. 

Mike White played the Chicago Bears minus some important key pieces. This is 100% true. Anyone who is completely ignoring the fact that the Bears traded away R.Smith/Quinn, and had a starting safety, corner and LB out due to injury, then had Eddie Jackson go down in the game on top of that, has blinders on. This is not 'mental gymnastics'. I know injuries happen. But (as Jets fans know all too well) when they hit in a wave, they can do a lot of damage. The Bears looked like they couldn't stop a nosebleed.  

Mike has an opportunity in the next two weeks to silence the Critics. This is 100% correct. Beating the GOOD teams is how he will define his legacy. Not beating up on the 3-8 Bears with a bunch of injured starters and a backup QB. Kudos to Mike. He did a fantastic job against the Bears. I couldn't be happier. But this Vikings game is HUGE (as is the Bills game after that). And its how he plays in THESE games that will really matter and let us know if this is the kind of guy who can get us into the playoffs and make some noise once we are there.    

Mike White may solidify his legacy in these two coming weeks. See above. 

Is Mike White a viable long term answer ... its not out of the question ... but based on previous evaluations id say the likelihood is low. This is 100% correct. RIGHT NOW he is NOT the long term answer. He COULD be. He has that opportunity. Its his job to lose. But he hasn't done anything for Saleh nd JD to say to themselves- 'This is the guys from now on. He is long term solution at QB. He going to be our QB the rest of the year no matter what and he will be the starter in 2023.'   

Now you could argue that the likelihood is NOT low. You could argue that he will be great and take hold of this job into 2023. But nothing here suggests to me this is a Zach Wilson fan doing 'mental gymnastics'. 

[TheClashFan]

My only question is...can White stay on the field long term?  IIRC, wasn't he knocked out of games twice last year?  Hopefully he can this year!

 

[football guy]

3 minutes ago, David Harris said:

How about a Jimmy Garopolo comp.  The QB with limitations we were just drooling over.  A qb who just wins with a good supporting cast by making the right decisions with accuracy and decisiveness.  

Or maybe a maxed out Mac Jones - the guy Shanahan wanted to draft #3 overall to run his offense before the media crushed the possibility.

Zach's physical ability is off the charts, if he can learn the Mike White game while having that it's the best case scenario.  But his 20 game stats put him in Jamarcus Russell territory.  If ZW turns it around he'd be an outlier. 

I think Nick Foles/Matt Schaub/Tom Brady are the stylistic comps for Mike White. Whether he can be Foles or Schaub or Brady really comes down to how he is able to adjust his play opponent-to-opponent in order to sustain the same level of play despite defenses playing him differently, as well as his ability to "lift" the team up when things start to deteriorate around him (short and long term). 

As far as "theme" or narrative, the Garoppolo comp absolutely makes sense. He was our Garoppolo yesterday. In terms of their physical comps/playing styles, I would say that Garoppolo is more of an athlete with a better release, which allows him to throw with with better anticipation and makes it easier for him to handle pressure more consistently and make more plays outside of the pocket. 

On your point about Zach Wilson, nothing your saying is wrong, but "stats" or "trends" are not something the Jets put weight into. The goal they've always had is to mold him into Mike White or Jimmy Garoppolo or Kirk Cousins 80% of the time, while allowing him to be a playmaker the other 20%. I know fans don't want to hear it, especially after yesterday, but the Jets wholeheartedly believe that is still possible, if not likely. Whether it takes a temporary reset or 5 years on another team is what we don't know, but they think he has what it takes to marry the two. Its no different for Mike White: they feel like they know who he is and know who he can be; no great or poor statistical performance, trend, or comp is going to dramatically sway them one way or another, rather, they put more weight into the process and ability to execute certain kinds of plays, against certain kinds of coverages, one play at a time.

Also while we're here: comparing ZW to Russell has become popular but its totally unfair IMO. You can't compare the guy to Jamarcus Russell and fail to acknowledge additional context. Jamarcus Russell was a total headcase with horrible work habits and even worse off-the-field interests. It's fair to say that Zach has trended into bust territory, but he has a lot more going for him that others who also struggled early on did not (good work ethic, continuity, organizational infrastructure, talented supporting cast, etc.). If there's anyone to (negatively) compare Zach to as to say "how did it go wrong", it would be Kyle Boller. Boller had the right "stuff" both mentally and physically, was drafted by some of the best football executives in football history, was on a winning team with a strong infrastructure of coaching/scheme continuity, a good supporting cast, and a good culture, but could not make it work because of his inability to be accurate and stay healthy. Now Zach is more "naturally" accurate with the football- when he's fundamentally sound, Zach can place the ball in spots not many QB are able to do- but to this point its a very similar narrative. His problem is more so the consistent fundamentals under pressure, which also plagued Boller. Here's a good clip about what they felt went wrong for him: 

It's ironic because everything Billick mentions in this is kind of similar to what is happening to Zach right now, specifically as it relates to fundamentals under pressure, and its what people were fearful of out of Josh Allen as a draft prospect and in year 1-2. Again, I know people will continue to mock me and parade around on here like they know what they're talking about, but the truth of the matter is that the Jets still believe, right or wrong, that Zach could overcome these things. Whether they're right or wrong is up for debate. 

[Irish Jet]

3 minutes ago, football guy said:

I think Nick Foles/Matt Schaub/Tom Brady are the stylistic comps for Mike White. Whether he can be Foles or Schaub or Brady really comes down to how he is able to adjust his play opponent-to-opponent in order to sustain the same level of play despite defenses playing him differently, as well as his ability to "lift" the team up when things start to deteriorate around him (short and long term). 

As far as "theme" or narrative, the Garoppolo comp absolutely makes sense. He was our Garoppolo yesterday. In terms of their physical comps/playing styles, I would say that Garoppolo is more of an athlete with a better release, which allows him to throw with with better anticipation and makes it easier for him to handle pressure more consistently and make more plays outside of the pocket. 

On your point about Zach Wilson, nothing your saying is wrong, but "stats" or "trends" are not something the Jets put weight into. The goal they've always had is to mold him into Mike White or Jimmy Garoppolo or Kirk Cousins 80% of the time, while allowing him to be a playmaker the other 20%. I know fans don't want to hear it, especially after yesterday, but the Jets wholeheartedly believe that is still possible, if not likely. Whether it takes a temporary reset or 5 years on another team is what we don't know, but they think he has what it takes to marry the two. Its no different for Mike White: they feel like they know who he is and know who he can be; no great or poor statistical performance, trend, or comp is going to dramatically sway them one way or another, rather, they put more weight into the process and ability to execute certain kinds of plays, against certain kinds of coverages, one play at a time.

Also while we're here: comparing ZW to Russell has become popular but its totally unfair IMO. You can't compare the guy to Jamarcus Russell and fail to acknowledge additional context. Jamarcus Russell was a total headcase with horrible work habits and even worse off-the-field interests. It's fair to say that Zach has trended into bust territory, but he has a lot more going for him that others who also struggled early on did not (good work ethic, continuity, organizational infrastructure, talented supporting cast, etc.). If there's anyone to (negatively) compare Zach to as to say "how did it go wrong", it would be Kyle Boller. Boller had the right "stuff" both mentally and physically, was drafted by some of the best football executives in football history, was on a winning team with a strong infrastructure of coaching/scheme continuity, a good supporting cast, and a good culture, but could not make it work because of his inability to be accurate and stay healthy. Now Zach is more "naturally" accurate with the football- when he's fundamentally sound, Zach can place the ball in spots not many QB are able to do- but to this point its a very similar narrative. His problem is more so the consistent fundamentals under pressure, which also plagued Boller. Here's a good clip about what they felt went wrong for him: 

It's ironic because everything Billick mentions in this is kind of similar to what is happening to Zach right now, specifically as it relates to fundamentals under pressure, and its what people were fearful of out of Josh Allen as a draft prospect and in year 1-2. Again, I know people will continue to mock me and parade around on here like they know what they're talking about, but the truth of the matter is that the Jets still believe, right or wrong, that Zach could overcome these things. Whether they're right or wrong is up for debate. 

The Russell comparison is because their stats are basically a mirror image and they were both top two picks. They're compared because Zach isn't just entering bust territory - He's entering all time bust territory. 

Boller is definitely a more accurate comparison in terms of where Zach is now as a player but he was taken 19th overall - The investment and expectation isn't quite the same. 

I have no issue with the Jets giving Zach time to get ready but at this point, with this team they can't bank on it. The odds of him turning into a decent QB, let alone what they expected pre-draft, are just way too high to commit to. 

[David Harris]

43 minutes ago, football guy said:

I think Nick Foles/Matt Schaub/Tom Brady are the stylistic comps for Mike White. Whether he can be Foles or Schaub or Brady really comes down to how he is able to adjust his play opponent-to-opponent in order to sustain the same level of play despite defenses playing him differently, as well as his ability to "lift" the team up when things start to deteriorate around him (short and long term). 

As far as "theme" or narrative, the Garoppolo comp absolutely makes sense. He was our Garoppolo yesterday. In terms of their physical comps/playing styles, I would say that Garoppolo is more of an athlete with a better release, which allows him to throw with with better anticipation and makes it easier for him to handle pressure more consistently and make more plays outside of the pocket. 

On your point about Zach Wilson, nothing your saying is wrong, but "stats" or "trends" are not something the Jets put weight into. The goal they've always had is to mold him into Mike White or Jimmy Garoppolo or Kirk Cousins 80% of the time, while allowing him to be a playmaker the other 20%. I know fans don't want to hear it, especially after yesterday, but the Jets wholeheartedly believe that is still possible, if not likely. Whether it takes a temporary reset or 5 years on another team is what we don't know, but they think he has what it takes to marry the two. Its no different for Mike White: they feel like they know who he is and know who he can be; no great or poor statistical performance, trend, or comp is going to dramatically sway them one way or another, rather, they put more weight into the process and ability to execute certain kinds of plays, against certain kinds of coverages, one play at a time.

Also while we're here: comparing ZW to Russell has become popular but its totally unfair IMO. You can't compare the guy to Jamarcus Russell and fail to acknowledge additional context. Jamarcus Russell was a total headcase with horrible work habits and even worse off-the-field interests. It's fair to say that Zach has trended into bust territory, but he has a lot more going for him that others who also struggled early on did not (good work ethic, continuity, organizational infrastructure, talented supporting cast, etc.). If there's anyone to (negatively) compare Zach to as to say "how did it go wrong", it would be Kyle Boller. Boller had the right "stuff" both mentally and physically, was drafted by some of the best football executives in football history, was on a winning team with a strong infrastructure of coaching/scheme continuity, a good supporting cast, and a good culture, but could not make it work because of his inability to be accurate and stay healthy. Now Zach is more "naturally" accurate with the football- when he's fundamentally sound, Zach can place the ball in spots not many QB are able to do- but to this point its a very similar narrative. His problem is more so the consistent fundamentals under pressure, which also plagued Boller. Here's a good clip about what they felt went wrong for him: 

It's ironic because everything Billick mentions in this is kind of similar to what is happening to Zach right now, specifically as it relates to fundamentals under pressure, and its what people were fearful of out of Josh Allen as a draft prospect and in year 1-2. Again, I know people will continue to mock me and parade around on here like they know what they're talking about, but the truth of the matter is that the Jets still believe, right or wrong, that Zach could overcome these things. Whether they're right or wrong is up for debate. 

I'm relieved the org feels that way about Zach and isn't ready to turn the page - gives me some hope.  All the talent is there, and you almost feel if he was guaranteed to start every game the next 3 years that the light would come on at some point but no team in the NFL has that much rope to give a player.

I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see how NFL defenses will scheme Mike White once they get more tape on him and to see if he is good enough to adapt and adjust his game to win.  If he can really become our Jimmy G that would be good enough to make a run in the playoffs.

 

FTR- ignore the noisy minority of doubters.  I think I speak for the silent majority on this board who appreciate every post you make giving us the scoop and your own opinion.

[Barry McCockinner]

1 hour ago, PepPep said:

How is any of this 'mental gymnastics'?? Stop trolling. 

Mike had an excellent game today ... made no mistakes .. was effective and efficient. This is 100% correct. He had an excellent game. He didn't break any records. He didn't do anything otherworldly. He played great, mistake free football. Efficient and effective. Can you pour on some more praise? Sure. Can you minimize his performance a bit more? Sure. But this is not mental gymnastics by some crazed Zach Wilson fan. 

Mike White played the Chicago Bears minus some important key pieces. This is 100% true. Anyone who is completely ignoring the fact that the Bears traded away R.Smith/Quinn, and had a starting safety, corner and LB out due to injury, then had Eddie Jackson go down in the game on top of that, has blinders on. This is not 'mental gymnastics'. I know injuries happen. But (as Jets fans know all too well) when they hit in a wave, they can do a lot of damage. The Bears looked like they couldn't stop a nosebleed.  

Mike has an opportunity in the next two weeks to silence the Critics. This is 100% correct. Beating the GOOD teams is how he will define his legacy. Not beating up on the 3-8 Bears with a bunch of injured starters and a backup QB. Kudos to Mike. He did a fantastic job against the Bears. I couldn't be happier. But this Vikings game is HUGE (as is the Bills game after that). And its how he plays in THESE games that will really matter and let us know if this is the kind of guy who can get us into the playoffs and make some noise once we are there.    

Mike White may solidify his legacy in these two coming weeks. See above. 

Is Mike White a viable long term answer ... its not out of the question ... but based on previous evaluations id say the likelihood is low. This is 100% correct. RIGHT NOW he is NOT the long term answer. He COULD be. He has that opportunity. Its his job to lose. But he hasn't done anything for Saleh nd JD to say to themselves- 'This is the guys from now on. He is long term solution at QB. He going to be our QB the rest of the year no matter what and he will be the starter in 2023.'   

Now you could argue that the likelihood is NOT low. You could argue that he will be great and take hold of this job into 2023. But nothing here suggests to me this is a Zach Wilson fan doing 'mental gymnastics'. 

Zach fans are easy to identify because they are good at 2 things.

1) Making excuses about why Zach sucks.

2) Making excuses about why Mike White played good.

[David Harris]

54 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Zach fans are easy to identify because they are good at 2 things.

1) Making excuses about why Zach sucks.

2) Making excuses about why Mike White played good.

Our expectations have done a 180 this season. 
 

Mike White quarterbacked a perfect game keeping our spot in the playoffs (for the time being). Life is good.

[SuicidalSince98]

1 hour ago, Irish Jet said:

The Russell comparison is because their stats are basically a mirror image and they were both top two picks. They're compared because Zach isn't just entering bust territory - He's entering all time bust territory. 

Boller is definitely a more accurate comparison in terms of where Zach is now as a player but he was taken 19th overall - The investment and expectation isn't quite the same. 

I have no issue with the Jets giving Zach time to get ready but at this point, with this team they can't bank on it. The odds of him turning into a decent QB, let alone what they expected pre-draft, are just way too high to commit to. 

Jamarcus Russell isn’t an epic bust because of his stats, it was the awful work ethic and off field stuff. 

[shuler82]

2 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Jamarcus Russell isn’t an epic bust because of his stats, it was the awful work ethic and off field stuff. 

Oh I'm sure his stats certainly helped. 

[SoFlaJets]

2 hours ago, football guy said:

When you watch a football game, do you watch the players play or do you just yell and scream when good/bad things happen? Do you statsterbate or do you watch the players play?

Mike White deserves plenty of praise. He does not deserve to be judged on his worst performance either. The reality is that he's a limited quarterback who has found comfort in the system we run. He "makes the easy look easy" as coach said. He's the best kind of backup QB anyone can ask for, and he may even be able to play his way into being a long-term starter if all goes right for him and around him. But please, for the love of god, can we just be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that Mike White is not Joe Burrow???

Mike White is likely Nick Foles. Nick Foles went on to win the Eagles a Superbowl. Lets hope White can do the same while acknowledging that he has limitations which will likely prevent him from being able to sustain elite-level success long-term. 

I know you're mister football guy and all but personally I prefer to go by what a guy who actually PLAYED the game as a pro, at a very high level and take his words and his judgement over some guy who is pretending to be an expert-no offense, mind you but here's what Richard Sherman has to say about Mike White and Zach Wilson: slide over to about 7:55

 

[football guy]

1 hour ago, Irish Jet said:

The Russell comparison is because their stats are basically a mirror image and they were both top two picks. They're compared because Zach isn't just entering bust territory - He's entering all time bust territory. 

Boller is definitely a more accurate comparison in terms of where Zach is now as a player but he was taken 19th overall - The investment and expectation isn't quite the same. 

I have no issue with the Jets giving Zach time to get ready but at this point, with this team they can't bank on it. The odds of him turning into a decent QB, let alone what they expected pre-draft, are just way too high to commit to. 

That's the flaw in it though; there are only 37 quarterbacks who were drafted top 2 since the 1970 merger. When you compare with specific qualifiers you kind of pigeonhole things and can spin it however you like. Just playing devil's advocate here, but if I were to compare Zach Wilson's first 20 starts to John Elway's, Steve Young's, and Troy Aikman's, I'd rightly be discredited to the moon for leaving out important context, yet I can spin it as "his stats are similar, if not favorable, to 3 HOF QBs who were top 2 picks" and not be wrong. I think we agree that is a ridiculous statement. Similarly, you can find guys who had good statistical production in their initial 20 starts that correlated with some of the best QBs ever to play the game, yet went on to fall flat on their face for a variety of reasons (Mayfield, Trubisky, Wentz, Winston, Griffin...). 

At the end of the day, Zach Wilson is Zach Wilson. I get wanting to compare and project outcomes, but there's really little weight to that if we're being honest. The eye test is always going to be the top evaluation tool, and right now he hasn't passed it consistently enough to commit to long-term 

[football guy]

1 hour ago, SoFlaJets said:

I know you're mister football guy and all but personally I prefer to go by what a guy who actually PLAYED the game as a pro, at a very high level and take his words and his judgement over some guy who is pretending to be an expert-no offense, mind you but here's what Richard Sherman has to say about Mike White and Zach Wilson: slide over to about 7:55

 

For every Richard Sherman there are 30 former QBs who have the opposite take. What's your point?

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Jamarcus Russell isn’t an epic bust because of his stats, it was the awful work ethic and off field stuff. 

If he put up numbers, nobody would give a sh*t how much grape drank he had.

[SuicidalSince98]

4 minutes ago, football guy said:

For every Richard Sherman there are 30 former QBs who have the opposite take. What's your point?

Wilson needs to go back to the lab and rebuild himself as a thrower. I wouldn’t play him this year no matter what, and have him be the back up next year to mike white/minshew/carr/jimmy g. He doesn’t play a down until the starter gets hurt or benched next year or the year after 

[SoFlaJets]

1 minute ago, football guy said:

For every Richard Sherman there are 30 former QBs who have the opposite take. What's your point?

I'm thinking of changing my screenname from SoFlaJets to The Pigskin Expert-I'll answer your question afterwards- I think it'll add a little more  weight to the argument. Give it a little more legitimacy-stand by

[SuicidalSince98]

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If he put up numbers, nobody would give a sh*t how much grape drank he had.

Ok? That is irrelevant. If he was a hard worker he would have lasted a lot longer. 

[T0mShane]

Jamarcus isn’t the right comparison, imo. He ate and drank his way out of the league and refused to work. The better comp for Zach, statistically and otherwise, is Blaine Gabbert. Gabbert was likewise a tools guy with one year of production who got way overdrafted:

https://stathead.com/football/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=GabbBl00&player_id1=WilsZa00&sum=0&request=1