What holds back the Mike White's of the league from being legit?

[TuscanyTile2]

1 hour ago, Maxman said:

The # 1 thing that holds them back is fans on message boards using the backup QB and 5th WR as their screen name. 

And you give these people a forum to spew their negativity.  Therefore YOU - @Maxman - are the #1 thing holding the Jets back as a franchise!!!

[Zachtomims47]

I think it depends on a few things. Are you winning because of him? Or losing because of him? 

Is he holding back the offense or making it thrive? And is he doing it consistently. 

[TuscanyTile2]

18 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

I think it depends on a few things. Are you winning because of him? Or losing because of him? 

Is he holding back the offense or making it thrive? And is he doing it consistently. 

Don't forget "Are you tying because of him?"

[Fantasy Island]

2 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Was thinking, what's stopping productive back ups like White and say, Jacoby Brisset from taking hold of their team and being a long term starter? or the Nick Folks of the world.  What are they lacking that even though winning, people say they can't be a long term starter. Is it just consistency? Can only win a handful of games? 

Even if Mike White went out and led the Jets to the playoffs with good stats, there would still be pause on naming him the starter next year. 

What gives? 

Draft position and GM's egos.

[Fantasy Island]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

ZW has the "higher ceiling" (due to physical skills) but MW is the one producing on the field.

[Larz]

Beat minny

and avoiding pass rush and beating tight deep coverage with a laser rocket arm 

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Was thinking, what's stopping productive back ups like White and say, Jacoby Brisset from taking hold of their team and being a long term starter? or the Nick Folks of the world.  What are they lacking that even though winning, people say they can't be a long term starter. Is it just consistency? Can only win a handful of games? 

Even if Mike White went out and led the Jets to the playoffs with good stats, there would still be pause on naming him the starter next year. 

What gives? 

There’s a ton of behavioral economics to be considered when discussing players as investment pieces. Sunk cost fallacy being the easiest to grasp. Zach had much higher sunk cost than White. It’s sad, but true that it’s just this simple.

[sackdance]

55 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

I can name 5 without even thinking.

Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, Jackson, Herbert

 

I'd say Jackson is an excellent QB and Herbert almost there - but great?

 

Do it in the post season.  

[ScarletKnight89]

They probably just don't get as many opportunities because of their draft status I guess. It's not really fair, but it is what it is.

Luckily for us, Mike White got a chance and is showing early on he might be able to be our QB.

Richard Sherman is on his podcast declaring Mike White a franchise QB FWIW.

[Morrissey]

Marginal arm strength and athleticism

[hawk]

3 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Was thinking, what's stopping productive back ups like White and say, Jacoby Brisset from taking hold of their team and being a long term starter? or the Nick Folks of the world.  What are they lacking that even though winning, people say they can't be a long term starter. Is it just consistency? Can only win a handful of games? 

Even if Mike White went out and led the Jets to the playoffs with good stats, there would still be pause on naming him the starter next year. 

What gives? 

Ego, plain and simple.

If a GM picks a player high, in this case #2, out of 250 some players, you want to force that round peg into a square hole.  Not to mention the money you paid that pick.  

Same goes for a Head Coach or any coach that plays the player over another, but to a lesser extent.

If draft status or money were the same between Zach and White, who do you think starts day 1?

Has Wilson done anything, really?  Has he shown any progress at all?

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

The only thing holding back Mike White is people’s pre-conceived notions

Cousins was a 4th round pick who got his opportunity early because of RG3’s injuries

White is a 5th round pick drafted in the same class as Sam Darnold

Is Cousins even better than Mike White?

We know Cousins chokes in prime time, shrinks in big moments.

MFW looks cool as freaking ice.

[Zachtomims47]

9 minutes ago, hawk said:

Ego, plain and simple.

If a GM picks a player high, in this case #2, out of 250 some players, you want to force that round peg into a square hole.  Not to mention the money you paid that pick.  

Same goes for a Head Coach or any coach that plays the player over another, but to a lesser extent.

If draft status or money were the same between Zach and White, who do you think starts day 1?

Has Wilson done anything, really?  Has he shown any progress at all?

I don't think it's ego so much as it is just waiting on a return with a major investment. A little easier to cut your losses if it's a 6th round pick and just move on.  Plus there's a reason said player was drafted incredibly high. You saw major potential in that player so you're willing to give it time. 

31 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

They probably just don't get as many opportunities because of their draft status I guess. It's not really fair, but it is what it is.

Luckily for us, Mike White got a chance and is showing early on he might be able to be our QB.

Richard Sherman is on his podcast declaring Mike White a franchise QB FWIW.

Mostly this. Plus consistency. Don't always need elite arm talent. Just opportunity, smart play, be able to lead your team. 

[BroadwayJoe12]

Where does the lack of arm-talent come from? Dude was a former pitcher who topped 90pmh and you have his scouting reports (i.e Matt Miller, NBCscout etc.) all saying arm-talent, while note a Vick / Rodgers / Herbert / Mahomes, was one of his strengths. In fact, one of his weaknesses was cited as believing in his arm too much. It's plenty strong enough.

[The Crusher]

5 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Was thinking, what's stopping productive back ups like White and say, Jacoby Brisset from taking hold of their team and being a long term starter? or the Nick Folks of the world.  What are they lacking that even though winning, people say they can't be a long term starter. Is it just consistency? Can only win a handful of games? 

Even if Mike White went out and led the Jets to the playoffs with good stats, there would still be pause on naming him the starter next year. 

What gives? 

Haters. 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

The real test will be when the book is out on Mike White and teams make adjustments. Hes going to be tested with heavy blitzes at some point, and he will also be tested by forcing him to throw the ball over the top of the defense. Hes going to have to be able to beat those adjustments and be consistent. If he can do that, the sky is the limit for him on this team. The O line should only get better, and we have very good weapons. 

If he can't do those things, we are probably looking for a new QB in the offseason.

[bitonti]

When Riggins and I did draft daddy we got to know a father of a qb prospect. Kind of a Mike white type. The bottom line is that qb is a hugely political position. It's not based on merit. All this guy wanted was his son to get a chance. He hung around as a number 3 type for a couple of years but he never got that chance 

Meanwhile a guy like Zach or Josh Rosen gets like infinite chances. 

It's not a fair system and we should be happy that Saleh cut through the bs otherwise we'd still be watching Zach lose most likely 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

9 minutes ago, bitonti said:

When Riggins and I did draft daddy we got to know a father of a qb prospect. Kind of a Mike white type. The bottom line is that qb is a hugely political position. It's not based on merit. All this guy wanted was his son to get a chance. He hung around as a number 3 type for a couple of years but he never got that chance 

Meanwhile a guy like Zach or Josh Rosen gets like infinite chances. 

It's not a fair system and we should be happy that Saleh cut through the bs otherwise we'd still be watching Zach lose most likely 

Not so sure I agree with this. Generally speaking its arm talent that gives a guy multiple chances, and its usually arm talent that gets guys drafted high in the draft. 

Look at Geno Smith. You talk about a million chances, he got it. And he was an immature player when he was young and not well liked. But he had arm talent.

[T0mShane]

13 minutes ago, BroadwayJoe12 said:

Dude was a former pitcher who topped 90pmh and you have his scouting reports (i.e Matt Miller, NBCscout etc.) all saying arm-talent,

Fwiw, Matt Miller (as Matt Miller does) cribbed the “big arm!” thing from Lance Zeirlein, who had put it in his crappy NFL.com draft bios thing that he rushes to paste together every February, and even that was based on White’s career as a pitcher. 

[CanadaSteve]

It will help him immensely if JD keeps on this upward trend as a GM.  That he keeps constantly finding depth so that the team can stay competitive when some of these players need paydays.  It is eventually going to happen, but for every Garrett Wilson you need 4-5 Zonovan Knights, Nate Herbigs, Ty Johnsons, Denzel Mims, and Cedric Ogbuehis.

[BroadwayJoe12]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Fwiw, Matt Miller (as Matt Miller does) cribbed the “big arm!” thing from Lance Zeirlein, who had put it in his crappy NFL.com draft bios thing that he rushes to paste together every February, and even that was based on White’s career as a pitcher. 

That's fair, and not terribly surprising as none of those guys truly evaluate the late-round picks. Fans just tend to fall into this dichotomized thinking of either you're Rodgers / Vick / Mahomes / Hebert etc. or you're at best, Kirk Cousins, based solely off arm-talent. Who know what will happen, but I saw post-shoulder Brees and late-career Manning orchestrate elite NFL offenses based on reading a defense, anticipation and throwing a catchable ball. Nobody has been higher on him than yourself, and I don't think he's shown us any reason he couldn't be here for the long-term.

[T0mShane]

14 minutes ago, BroadwayJoe12 said:

That's fair, and not terribly surprising as none of those guys truly evaluate the late-round picks. Fans just tend to fall into this dichotomized thinking of either you're Rodgers / Vick / Mahomes / Hebert etc. or you're at best, Kirk Cousins, based solely off arm-talent. Who know what will happen, but I saw post-shoulder Brees and late-career Manning orchestrate elite NFL offenses based on reading a defense, anticipation and throwing a catchable ball. Nobody has been higher on him than yourself, and I don't think he's shown us any reason he couldn't be here for the long-term.

Obviously I love Mike White, but the arm strength issue is very real and can be overcome (as in the examples you stated) by him developing into a psychic-level anticipator. He’s not there yet, but it *could* materialize if he gets enough snaps. There’s still a little too much see it/throw it to his game, which is where the near-picks (and, eventually, picks) will come from. I’ll know Mike White has ascended when he starts dropping nine-routes over Mims’s and Garrett Wilson’s shoulders in live action.

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Obviously I love Mike White, but the arm strength issue is very real and can be overcome (as in the examples you stated) by him developing into a psychic-level anticipator. He’s not there yet, but it *could* materialize if he gets enough snaps. There’s still a little too much see it/throw it to his game, which is where the near-picks (and, eventually, picks) will come from. I’ll know Mike White has ascended when he starts dropping nine-routes over Mims’s and Garrett Wilson’s shoulders in live action.

I don't think White's arm strength is a huge issue. I think his arm is fine, but not the 90 mph fastball I was promised pre-draft.  If anybody can find it, there is a review of him from the senior bowl practices where they discussed his arm strength. IIRC, he was good over the middle but was a concern driving it outside the hashes deep. 

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, Maxman said:

He had a shot or two downfield that he passed on, I think there was just one play (short dump off for two yards) that stood out for me.  But the All 22 is going to tell a great story for White. Hung in the pocket, was so accurate and made amazing decisions. When your completion % os around 80% and the score is over 30, that's a pretty great day.

+1000

Watched how he stepped up in the pocket all game, stayed tall and delivered accurate passes all game.  

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Obviously I love Mike White, but the arm strength issue is very real and can be overcome (as in the examples you stated) by him developing into a psychic-level anticipator. He’s not there yet, but it *could* materialize if he gets enough snaps. There’s still a little too much see it/throw it to his game, which is where the near-picks (and, eventually, picks) will come from. I’ll know Mike White has ascended when he starts dropping nine-routes over Mims’s and Garrett Wilson’s shoulders in live action.

He was fine in the pouring rain with that arm.  And how do we know he can’t throw harder, but chooses not to b/c it makes the ball more uncatchable

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't think White's arm strength is a huge issue. I think his arm is fine, but not the 90 mph fastball I was promised pre-draft.  If anybody can find it, there is a review of him from the senior bowl practices where they discussed his arm strength. IIRC, he was good over the middle but was a concern driving it outside the hashes deep. 

In a given game there’s only maybe 3 passes that travel 40+ yards in the air.  Most throws are 20 yards and in.  If you are good from 20 and in, you’re going to have a career in the nfl.  

[T0mShane]

20 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't think White's arm strength is a huge issue. I think his arm is fine, but not the 90 mph fastball I was promised pre-draft.  If anybody can find it, there is a review of him from the senior bowl practices where they discussed his arm strength. IIRC, he was good over the middle but was a concern driving it outside the hashes deep. 

 

19 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

He was fine in the pouring rain with that arm.  And how do we know he can’t throw harder, but chooses not to b/c it makes the ball more uncatchable

I don’t think the arm is disqualifying, but it’s clearly bottom-third among starting QBs right now. 

[T0mShane]

19 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

In a given game there’s only maybe 3 passes that travel 40+ yards in the air.  Most throws are 20 yards and in.  If you are good from 20 and in, you’re going to have a career in the nfl.  

It’s not distance, it’s velocity.

[hotrodcharlie]

It is hard to stand out in practice, especially in this new CBA world of rules against practicing.

there’s very little time they get to spend on live action in general, and that’s reserved for who the coaches think is their starter.
 

A guy like White gets a couple plays here and there, how are you gonna stand out to a front office that’s so invested in someone else anyway.

I bet there are lots of guys that get overlooked in this league

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Not so sure I agree with this. Generally speaking its arm talent that gives a guy multiple chances, and its usually arm talent that gets guys drafted high in the draft. 

Look at Geno Smith. You talk about a million chances, he got it. And he was an immature player when he was young and not well liked. But he had arm talent.

Sure and what is "arm talent" defined as? this nebulous title given by scouts based on very little objective fact

Geno Smith is basically Zach Wilson if Zach Wilson was drafted where he was supposed to be drafted. Zach should have been a rd2 player based on character (ego) and fundamental flaws  

my point is these QB prospects are on scouts' radar for years it's very hard to be an NFL QB "from out of nowhere" like Tony Romo or Kurt Warner 

or Mike White even. 

Most of the time the Mike Whites of the world get a few reps in Preseason if they are lucky, then off to CFL if they want to keep going with it. But eventually every job is assigned by management (higher than HC) and many of them are situations with nepotism like the Mannings. Which in the case of the Mannings, fair enough. But it's not easy to make it as a QB "from out of nowhere" in fact it's almost impossible 

meanwhile any linebacker who can run a 4.5 gets a shot eventually 

[Orangejet88]

4 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Talent .. If he turns into Joe Montana and beats the Vikes and the Bills soundly ... I will alter my course and full my full support behind him.

He's the starting NY Jets QB on a QB roster of mediocrity/the suck. How does he not have your full support right now?

[RedBeardedSavage]

Eliminate those two "almost interceptions" from yesterday.

There was the G Wil touchdown one that easily could've been picked, and then the pass over the middle to the receiver coming towards the bottom of the screen and the Bears LB or Safety jumped it but failed to catch it.

Against better defenses, those two plays will kill us. Seems like, and this is entirely speculative, he doesn't see those 'robbers' in the middle of the field well.

That said, he's better than Zach right now, so Mike White has earned the job.

We'll find out quickly about this dude considering the next two games are not easy. 

[#27TheDominator]

25 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It’s not distance, it’s velocity.

Exactly.  I get kind of exhausted hearing people rant about dropping long bombs "in stride."  Those are always in stride because the receiver and adjust.  It is those short ones and slants that have to be dead on the money.  

FWIW, I have read a few people (pre-draft) talking about White throwing the tightest spiral in the class.  That is probably a big help in the rain.  I know we hate PFF, but here is what they said:

"For him, a lot of (the positive) is the exposure, for scouts and coaches to be able to see him in person," said ProFootballFocus.com's analyst Zac Robinson, a former Senior Bowl quarterback himself. "They can see how the ball comes out of his hand in person and get to know the kind of guy he is and those types of things. He's had a successful career, so it's about scouts seeing the production on the field and matching it up with their eyes and getting to know him on a personal level."
 
Robinson, who now develops quarterbacks including current Cleveland Browns quarterback DeShone Kizer, a disciple of WKU head coach Mike Sanford, said that White is a "great in-between the numbers, down-field thrower. He's a great down-the-field thrower. He's always graded well for us on deep throws and 20-plus yard throws."

Before you apes get all pissy about the guy being from PFF and working with DeShone Kizer, Robinson has been with the Rams staff since 2019 and was their QB coach last year, when he got a ring.

[Sonny Werblin]

6 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Was thinking, what's stopping productive back ups like White and say, Jacoby Brisset from taking hold of their team and being a long term starter? or the Nick Folks of the world.  What are they lacking that even though winning, people say they can't be a long term starter. Is it just consistency? Can only win a handful of games? 

Even if Mike White went out and led the Jets to the playoffs with good stats, there would still be pause on naming him the starter next year. 

What gives? 

This . . .

 

[#27TheDominator]

I am no QB expert, but I don't know if I am buying any Zach Wilson, Geno Smith comparisons.  Geno has an NFL arm, but Wilson's release is lightning quick by comparison.