What holds back the Mike White's of the league from being legit?

[bitonti]

10 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I am no QB expert, but I don't know if I am buying any Zach Wilson, Geno Smith comparisons.  Geno has an NFL arm, but Wilson's release is lightning quick by comparison.  

It's a comparison because like Geno it will take Zach another 7 years to become decent 

he's got that much to learn about being a QB and a leader

 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, bitonti said:

It's a comparison because like Geno it will take Zach another 7 years to become decent 

he's got that much to learn about being a QB and a leader

 

The biggest hurdle with ZW is his immaturity and that’s not an easy fix.  Now they’re dealing with a sulking kid.  But, if the team is winning and mike white is good, maybe, just maybe, he’ll see the light sooner.

[bitonti]

10 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The biggest hurdle with ZW is his immaturity and that’s not an easy fix.  Now they’re dealing with a sulking kid.  But, if the team is winning and mike white is good, maybe, just maybe, he’ll see the light sooner.

Zach Wilson is like that meme with Seymour Skinner.

No it is the children who are wrong.

Everyone is wrong but Zach. I'm still floored by "why me, why now" it's like he doesn't have a realistic sense of how he's even doing? 

[Dunnie]

He's the starting NY Jets QB on a QB roster of mediocrity/the suck. How does he not have your full support right now?

My post was poorly worded.. of course he gets my full support as the starting QB of the Jets... He will earn my confidence by beating The Vikes and The Bills. Show Me.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[T0mShane]

35 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Exactly.  I get kind of exhausted hearing people rant about dropping long bombs "in stride."  Those are always in stride because the receiver and adjust.  It is those short ones and slants that have to be dead on the money.  

FWIW, I have read a few people (pre-draft) talking about White throwing the tightest spiral in the class.  That is probably a big help in the rain.  I know we hate PFF, but here is what they said:

"For him, a lot of (the positive) is the exposure, for scouts and coaches to be able to see him in person," said ProFootballFocus.com's analyst Zac Robinson, a former Senior Bowl quarterback himself. "They can see how the ball comes out of his hand in person and get to know the kind of guy he is and those types of things. He's had a successful career, so it's about scouts seeing the production on the field and matching it up with their eyes and getting to know him on a personal level."
 
Robinson, who now develops quarterbacks including current Cleveland Browns quarterback DeShone Kizer, a disciple of WKU head coach Mike Sanford, said that White is a "great in-between the numbers, down-field thrower. He's a great down-the-field thrower. He's always graded well for us on deep throws and 20-plus yard throws."

Before you apes get all pissy about the guy being from PFF and working with DeShone Kizer, Robinson has been with the Rams staff since 2019 and was their QB coach last year, when he got a ring.

White, this preseason, ripped a throw for a TD against the Falcons that was on a line and I remember thinking that I didn’t think he had that kind of juice. Maybe he does and we’ll see more of it as he gets more reps, but I haven’t really seen much of it yet, and I’m basically a Mike White groupie

[LionelRichie]

6 hours ago, GreenFish said:

Specific for Mike White, it comes down to opportunity. Not being drafted on day 1 or 2 limits your opportunity.

Mike White looked good to me. He has a strong/accurate arm and makes good decisions. Based on yesterday, he knows when to push it down field and when to take the easy throw. His super power is that he makes quick decisions. He has the ability to be a franchise QB.

Everyone wants Mahomes/Rodgers. Those guys are rare. Plus, 95% time, the best play doesn't come unscripted.

I think playing high level QB (top 1/3) is just hard regardless of draft position.   You see high picks like Zack, Akili Smith, Leaf, Trubiski, etc.. bust on a regular basis.    You see guys like Dak/Russel W who are mid-rd picks but start early while the closest comparison to White is probably Romo.  

The thing you have to remember is that for every Mike White there are 3 Petty's, McElroy's, and Morgans who just can't play at the NFL level.   

[jNYC1]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Obviously I love Mike White, but the arm strength issue is very real and can be overcome (as in the examples you stated) by him developing into a psychic-level anticipator. He’s not there yet, but it *could* materialize if he gets enough snaps. There’s still a little too much see it/throw it to his game, which is where the near-picks (and, eventually, picks) will come from. I’ll know Mike White has ascended when he starts dropping nine-routes over Mims’s and Garrett Wilson’s shoulders in live action.

Deep passing is an over blown concern AND

Arm strength required for deep passing is overrated...

On point 1 - True 9 routes are low percentage and infrequent... and easiest to complete when the offense is humming and there are breakdowns in the defense.  (More likely to get explosive plays by hitting players in stride, and letting them go the distance.)  It also key to have players that can win the matchup, and to be a good enough QB processor to identify the opportunities and pull the trigger before protection breaks down.  (Josh Allen and Mahomes are complete anomalies - and chasing that prototype will have a low hit rate)

On point 2 - Zach has the arm strength in theory to drop nine-routes over the shoulder in live action.  Sadly it never translated in games... He did have a few completed deep passes over his 20 starts...but we can count them on one hand (2 at the most) in over 550 career passing attempts.  Most of his long completions were YAC with a few notable exceptions - Titans and?)

The knock on Brady was his weak arm and ability to throw deep.  With good footwork, anticipation, and accuracy, a QB can improve on deep passes... Burrow doesnt have a cannon, neither does Tua... They make up for it with recognition, anticipation and accuracy (yes - along with uber talented receivers). 

I suspect Mike White has enough arm strength to complete deep passes.  Chad P managed to complete deep passes with a noodle arm. 

[T0mShane]

41 minutes ago, jNYC1 said:

Deep passing is an over blown concern AND

Arm strength required for deep passing is overrated...

On point 1 - True 9 routes are low percentage and infrequent... and easiest to complete when the offense is humming and there are breakdowns in the defense.  (More likely to get explosive plays by hitting players in stride, and letting them go the distance.)  It also key to have players that can win the matchup, and to be a good enough QB processor to identify the opportunities and pull the trigger before protection breaks down.  (Josh Allen and Mahomes are complete anomalies - and chasing that prototype will have a low hit rate)

On point 2 - Zach has the arm strength in theory to drop nine-routes over the shoulder in live action.  Sadly it never translated in games... He did have a few completed deep passes over his 20 starts...but we can count them on one hand (2 at the most) in over 550 career passing attempts.  Most of his long completions were YAC with a few notable exceptions - Titans and?)

The knock on Brady was his weak arm and ability to throw deep.  With good footwork, anticipation, and accuracy, a QB can improve on deep passes... Burrow doesnt have a cannon, neither does Tua... They make up for it with recognition, anticipation and accuracy (yes - along with uber talented receivers). 

I suspect Mike White has enough arm strength to complete deep passes.  Chad P managed to complete deep passes with a noodle arm. 

Brady has the median level of arm strength, and White has shown less than that. We’re going to see what White has in the Buffalo game, because what they did to him in the third quarter of last year’s demolition was compress their cover two and dare White to beat it over the top. White responded by throwing 3 of his 4 INTs. 

[CanadaSteve]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't think White's arm strength is a huge issue. I think his arm is fine, but not the 90 mph fastball I was promised pre-draft.  If anybody can find it, there is a review of him from the senior bowl practices where they discussed his arm strength. IIRC, he was good over the middle but was a concern driving it outside the hashes deep. 

I think his arm strength is fine.  I'd take his strength and accuracy over Zach's 100 mile an hour fastball over guys heads.

[Jet9]

8 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Perceived ceilings, pedigree, and human error bias. 

This, plus holy crap does draft position follow players around in football. 

[hawk]

5 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

I don't think it's ego so much as it is just waiting on a return with a major investment. A little easier to cut your losses if it's a 6th round pick and just move on.  Plus there's a reason said player was drafted incredibly high. You saw major potential in that player so you're willing to give it time. 

Mostly this. Plus consistency. Don't always need elite arm talent. Just opportunity, smart play, be able to lead your team. 

I don't disagree, however, these are trained professionals who understand when a player is showing those talents on the field, who they are taking coaching and ultimately when they are showing improvement. 

Ego, is when they ignore there knowledge and basically hope it will just click.

Obviously, JD and/or Saleh put theirs aside 

[TuscanyTile2]

Basically, this one pass:

[Orangejet88]

1 hour ago, Dunnie said:

My post was poorly worded.. of course he gets my full support as the starting QB of the Jets... He will earn my confidence by beating The Vikes and The Bills. Show Me.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

 

Fair enough...but he's clearly the best option right now. He may not be FQB material, but is probably their best chance to get to the playoffs. So I guess I don't get the "show me" mentality at this point. The Jets are short on options, and both ZW and Flacco have shown their limitations, and in ZW's case, downright detriment to the offense.

[choon328]

7 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

ZW has the "higher ceiling" (due to physical skills) but MW is the one producing on the field.

Wilson has played 20 games. His ceiling is much lower than it was the day he got drafted. How many teams would give up any day 1 pick for Wilson right now? None. 

[choon328]

7 hours ago, k-met57 said:

I can name 5 without even thinking.

Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, Jackson, Herbert

 

Sorry but Mahomes and Allen are in their own stratosphere. 

[choon328]

2 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

The biggest hurdle with ZW is his immaturity and that’s not an easy fix.  Now they’re dealing with a sulking kid.  But, if the team is winning and mike white is good, maybe, just maybe, he’ll see the light sooner.

The biggest hurdle he had is that he can't read a defense in real time. The attitude and lack of accountability is not holding his play back. 

[choon328]

22 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Basically, this one pass:

JaMarcus Russell laughs at that Zach Wilson throw. How'd his career go? Arm strength is the most overrated trait. There are very few times a year you need a QB to throw 60+ yds in the air. High football IQ, on field intelligence, anticipation and accuracy make a great QB. 

[k-met57]

6 hours ago, sackdance said:

I'd say Jackson is an excellent QB and Herbert almost there - but great?

 

Do it in the post season.  

That’s not the point, obviously you can argue mahomes and Allen are above the others. The point is there are a bunch of guys in the league that can be in a game where the rest of the team is playing like crap, and squeeze out a win.  I’d even put guys like Brady/Rodgers in there but obv this year is tough for them.

[Alentador31]

One of the best QBs ever to play the game (Brady) has built a career on doing the easy things at an elite level and being able to process everything at an elite level.

Not saying White is Brady or will ever be Brady, but I don't see why he can't be a franchise QB. Does he have to prove it? Absolutely.

Will he have a shorter leash while trying to prove it because of his career trajectory to date? Absolutely. 

Time will tell. But if he is able to perform well the rest of the season, I don't see how this isn't his job to lose. 

For now.....enjoy the ride fellas. 

[Jet9]

32 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Basically, this one pass:

'He ran a 4.15 40!'

Can he play football?

'18 bench reps at XXX pounds!'

Can he play football?

'#2 at his position in 3-cone drill!'

Can he play football?

 

The draft combine is a tremendous waste of time. 

 

 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

15 hours ago, bitonti said:

Sure and what is "arm talent" defined as? this nebulous title given by scouts based on very little objective fact

Geno Smith is basically Zach Wilson if Zach Wilson was drafted where he was supposed to be drafted. Zach should have been a rd2 player based on character (ego) and fundamental flaws  

my point is these QB prospects are on scouts' radar for years it's very hard to be an NFL QB "from out of nowhere" like Tony Romo or Kurt Warner 

or Mike White even. 

Most of the time the Mike Whites of the world get a few reps in Preseason if they are lucky, then off to CFL if they want to keep going with it. But eventually every job is assigned by management (higher than HC) and many of them are situations with nepotism like the Mannings. Which in the case of the Mannings, fair enough. But it's not easy to make it as a QB "from out of nowhere" in fact it's almost impossible 

meanwhile any linebacker who can run a 4.5 gets a shot eventually 

Yeah, and my point is arm talent is a strong arm and a quick release. And the guys who have it generally are on the scouts radar and given many more chances than the guys who don't. Its not political, its about who has a strong arm and who doesnt.

Geno is playing like a top 5 QB in the league right now, it took him many chances and many years to get here, but with his arm talent, when he matured he had a much higher chance of playing at that level than a guy with a weaker arm

[ACourseinMiracles]

We watched the answer to this question while Fitzpatrick was on the team.

[T0mShane]

14 hours ago, bitonti said:

Zach Wilson is like that meme with Seymour Skinner.

No it is the children who are wrong.

Everyone is wrong but Zach. I'm still floored by "why me, why now" it's like he doesn't have a realistic sense of how he's even doing? 

I will forever be confused by the people who are confused by the Jets moving on from Zach Wilson. This is an offense that is so remedial that street free agents can run it effectively, yet Zach Wilson has put up a first twenty starts that, statistically, rank at the bottom of literally every metric—not just the accounting stats (yards, TDs), but also the deep-state nerd numbers that might pick up on some foundational skills Wilson could build upon. We are talking an historically bad player in the Blaine Gabbert/Josh Rosen tier of failure. 

[T0mShane]

12 hours ago, choon328 said:

Wilson has played 20 games. His ceiling is much lower than it was the day he got drafted. How many teams would give up any day 1 pick for Wilson right now? None. 

Ehhhhhhhh, if you’re an offensive coach, who would you rather have tomorrow: CJ Stroud or Zach Wilson? Will Levis or Zach Wilson? I think it’d even be close between Bryce Young and Zach Wilson because Bryce Young is tiny-tiny. Zach would hold some value on the open market. 

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Ehhhhhhhh, if you’re an offensive coach, who would you rather have tomorrow: CJ Stroud or Zach Wilson? Will Levis or Zach Wilson? I think it’d even be close between Bryce Young and Zach Wilson because Bryce Young is tiny-tiny. Zach would hold some value on the open market. 

Those guys have leadership though. Zach is like a cancer in the locker room 

[Sonny Werblin]

9 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Those guys have leadership though. Zach is like a cancer in the locker room 

I don’t think he’s a cancer. I think he fell into the sam darnold one of the guys trope. In fairness, we don’t really know if White is a leader. We know he’s popular, but that’s different than leadership.

Right now Zach is on an island. Frankly that’s an ideal spot for him to learn to be a leader. Separated from the group, focused on what he needs to do, and what he must get his teammates to do, for him to succeed. He may never become a leader but he has a clearer path through the gauntlet he must navigate to become aleader than he was just one of the boys.

[Sonny Werblin]

Double post

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I don’t think he’s a cancer. I think he fell into the sam darnold one of the guys trope. In fairness, we don’t really know if White is a leader. We know he’s popular, but that’s different than leadership.

i agree.  i don't think wilson is like the geno smith situation.  i think the guys like wilson, but increasingly i think they resent wilson b/c he's been handed the starting gig when he didn't deserve it and the coaches continued to defend him as he continued to suck.  meanwhile, white was clearly the better option.  so i think the team is happy for white, b/c many of these guys had to fight for their nfl careers and didn't get drafted 2nd overall.