Interesting Article Mike White Related

[Dunnie]

https://heavy.com/sports/new-york-jets/zach-wilson-mike-white-bears-vikings/
 
How much do you think White is worth in an extension 12 mill ?

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[Sonny Werblin]

Perhaps the Mike and Mike Show will be taken on the road? If Mike White continues to complete nearly 70% of his passes and leads the Jets to the playoffs and then continues to play well in the playoffs, watch out for a QB and coach needy team hiring Mike Lafleur and Signing Mike White to a big deal believing it will provide instant offensive success -- Panthers, Texans, Colts - I'd add the Broncos if they weren't in Russell Wilson Cap Hell.

[doitny]

your worth with someone is willing to pay. if he leads us to the playoffs i can see a team offering 20 mil for 2 years to see if he is the real deal. question is do we match that?

we better start showing him some love before that cause if he thinks there is a chance we want to start Zach next year cause its too soon not to give him another chance he will go to a team who is not forced to start a high draft pick. 

[doitny]

3 minutes ago, doitny said:

your worth with someone is willing to pay. if he leads us to the playoffs i can see a team offering 20 mil for 2 years to see if he is the real deal. question is do we match that?

we better start showing him some love before that cause if he thinks there is a chance we want to start Zach next year cause its too soon not to give him another chance he will go to a team who is not forced to start a high draft pick. 

then again i just looked up Jimmy G. and the paths is similar.

he was 26 when he got trade to the 49ers mid season. he went 5-0 67% comp 1560 yds 7 tds 5 ints

end of the year he sign a 5 year 137.5 million contract. the highest based on annual basis. 27 mil a year.

and before going to the 49ers he started only 2 games in NE.

now looking at this im not so sure. he could get the same as Jimmy G

[Fantasy Island]

1 hour ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Perhaps the Mike and Mike Show will be taken on the road? If Mike White continues to complete nearly 70% of his passes and leads the Jets to the playoffs and then continues to play well in the playoffs, watch out for a QB and coach needy team hiring Mike Lafleur and Signing Mike White to a big deal believing it will provide instant offensive success -- Panthers, Texans, Colts - I'd add the Broncos if they weren't in Russell Wilson Cap Hell.

Noooo, that leaves us with Father Time and the petulant ballerina.  We got to keep Mike White.

[RevisIsland610]

The Zach apologists still don't get it. I don't care if he was playing the Bears. There is no way ZW would have been even close to the polished and efficient manner in which White lead the offense. NO WAY!!! Wilson hasn't completed passes to 10 different receivers in 2 years. Mike White is by far the better QB. I hope when White throws for 300 yards against the Vikings this idiotic narrative will stop. 

[CanadienJetsFan]

I wish that we have this sort of problem in the off-season 

[football guy]

47 minutes ago, RevisIsland610 said:

The Zach apologists still don't get it. I don't care if he was playing the Bears. There is no way ZW would have been even close to the polished and efficient manner in which White lead the offense. NO WAY!!! Wilson hasn't completed passes to 10 different receivers in 2 years. Mike White is by far the better QB. I hope when White throws for 300 yards against the Vikings this idiotic narrative will stop. 

I don't think this is the argument.  The argument is that the Jets coaching staff is tasked with developing Zach Wilson into a polished and efficient quarterback.  I don't believe Zach would have played as efficiently as MW did, but I do think that he would've had a good performance given how bad the Bears defense was/how many times the first read was wide open.  Those who feel you need to play the player who gives you the best chance to win in the present are right to want Mike White at QB.  Those who feel that competitively developing Zach Wilson gives the team the best chance to win long-term are right to want Zach Wilson at QB. 

My personal opinion is and has been that the Jets had two really bad screw ups through Zach's development thus far: 

1. They should have never started Zach day 1.  I'm very much against anointing rookie QBs as day 1 starters; I would rather sit a talented player and allow them to develop at a more methodical pace, even if it means sitting the player for 1+ seasons.  I think they rationalized starting him because he was familiar enough with the offense and playbook to make it work, but I feel it was egregious to start him day 1 when you consider he was trying to make the jump from BYU to NFL and had clear issues with his footwork early last year. 
2. The lack veteran coaching on offense. Greg Knapp was hired specifically to assist with developing Zach Wilson the player and Rob Calabrese the coach. The intent of hiring Calabrese in the first place was because the staff identified him as an up-and-coming talent who could eventually become a passing game coordinator/offensive coordinator. As most of us know, Knapp tragically passed right before training camp. They waited until training camp was over to hire his replacement in Matt Cavanaugh.  Then they hired John Beck midseason to help be more hands-on with Zach Wilson fundamentally.  They had an opportunity to bring in a veteran coach this past offseason and they declined to do so.  I believe that was a glaring misstep by the organization considering how "raw" of a coach Calabrese is. 

[Trotter]

Any consideration to bringing Norv Turner in next year to work specifically with the Qb's?

I know he is a coordinator with the panthers and most likely they are cleaning house.

Always respected the guy and his work with qb's seems to be admired thru the league. He would certainly be a positive teacher for Zach if the plans are keep him around in 2023 and if Mike White continues to be the starter, would be an asset to him as well.  

[doitny]

10 minutes ago, football guy said:

I don't think this is the argument.  The argument is that the Jets coaching staff is tasked with developing Zach Wilson into a polished and efficient quarterback.  I don't believe Zach would have played as efficiently as MW did, but I do think that he would've had a good performance given how bad the Bears defense was/how many times the first read was wide open.  Those who feel you need to play the player who gives you the best chance to win in the present are right to want Mike White at QB.  Those who feel that competitively developing Zach Wilson gives the team the best chance to win long-term are right to want Zach Wilson at QB. 

My personal opinion is and has been that the Jets had two really bad screw ups through Zach's development thus far: 

1. They should have never started Zach day 1.  I'm very much against anointing rookie QBs as day 1 starters; I would rather sit a talented player and allow them to develop at a more methodical pace, even if it means sitting the player for 1+ seasons.  I think they rationalized starting him because he was familiar enough with the offense and playbook to make it work, but I feel it was egregious to start him day 1 when you consider he was trying to make the jump from BYU to NFL and had clear issues with his footwork early last year. 
2. The lack veteran coaching on offense. Greg Knapp was hired specifically to assist with developing Zach Wilson the player and Rob Calabrese the coach. The intent of hiring Calabrese in the first place was because the staff identified him as an up-and-coming talent who could eventually become a passing game coordinator/offensive coordinator. As most of us know, Knapp tragically passed right before training camp. They waited until training camp was over to hire his replacement in Matt Cavanaugh.  Then they hired John Beck midseason to help be more hands-on with Zach Wilson fundamentally.  They had an opportunity to bring in a veteran coach this past offseason and they declined to do so.  I believe that was a glaring misstep by the organization considering how "raw" of a coach Calabrese is. 

fair post. i just disagree with starting Zach day 1. if you can't start the #2 pick on day 1 he should never been the pick.

then you watch Lawerance, and Mac, start week 1. Fields started week 3 but playing a little in both weeks before. Mills who wasnt a 1st rd pick started week 3. only Lance who had Jimmy G didnt play.

they just dont do that anymore to high draft picks unless someone really good is ahead of them. the media would have killed them for picking someone so raw that he is the only one without a SB QB ahead of them thats not playing. 

[slimjasi]

34 minutes ago, football guy said:

Those who feel you need to play the player who gives you the best chance to win in the present are right to want Mike White at QB.  

When you haven't made the playoffs in 12 years, it's hard to do anything but this. 

[JoeFan]

You make valid points.  However, I wonder about Zach’s skills in a couple of areas being somewhat difficult to improve, even with the best, most experienced coaching.  Most importantly, I don’t think that he sees the field well.  I believe that this skill can improve over time,  but some people are slower readers than others, whether we are talking about a book or a defense.

Secondly, I don’t know if he can be coached out of his inclination to retreat from the pocket, rather than climbing forward .  It seems to me that he may have gotten gun shy as a result of how bad the offensive line was last year and any game in which Van Roten and Feeney had to play.  As soon as I saw that Feeney was playing against New England, I felt that we were in trouble… The mystery to me is that Zach did step up in the pocket against Pittsburgh and Buffalo.  
As for the egregiously inaccurate throws, I thought he had fixed that earlier this season.  I have no idea why that problem reappeared.

In general, I do think that it was a terrible idea to have a rookie head coach and other rookie coaches at the same time.  I also think that it was a terrible idea to bring in John Beck.  At the time, I wondered if that would turn off Zach’s teammates.

 

[football guy]

3 minutes ago, doitny said:

fair post. i just disagree with starting Zach day 1. if you can't start the #2 pick on day 1 he should never been the pick.

then you watch Lawerance, and Mac, start week 1. Fields started week 3 but playing a little in both weeks before. Mills who wasnt a 1st rd pick started week 3. only Lance who had Jimmy G didnt play.

they just dont do that anymore to high draft picks unless someone really good is ahead of them. the media would have killed them for picking someone so raw that he is the only one without a SB QB ahead of them thats not playing. 

Also fair perspective, but drafting a QB in the top 10 is different than other positions. You're drafting that player high because you know he has rare talent, and the organization has the intent/hope to develop that talent into an elite QB who can be your QB for 10+ years. If that's the end result, sacrificing a few games or even 1-2 seasons should mean very little in the grand scheme of things. It used to be commonplace to have your "franchise" QB begin his career as a 2nd/3rd string until Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco showed teams could still find success with rookie QBs. 

Every player grows at a different pace, and the most common talent comparison for Wilson was two of the game's best QBs in Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Rodgers for a reason. Like both of them, he was a raw prospect that had his fair share of fundamental/decision making flaws but stylistically resembled the play-making ability and arm talent both players had in college, which transitioned to the pros. Rodgers fell to 24 because of them, Mahomes to 10. I don't think enough people realize how awful Mahomes fundamentals were when he was entering the league (far worse than Zach's), but the talent was so tantalizing that I personally wanted the Jets to draft him at 6 and develop him behind Fitzpatrick. He was so reminiscent of Favre/Rodgers, and I think the same feeling was/is shared for Zach among some of the most well respected talent evaluators around. 

I get that Rodgers was behind Favre and Mahomes behind Alex Smith, but if teams re-drafted and started either player day 1, they're most likely not becoming the player they are today. But if you told San Francisco (or Chicago) that they can draft Mahomes, sit him for a year, and get something close to that now they sign up for it 100/100 times. I personally felt the Jets did not do enough to bring back Joe Flacco, who they could've had begin the season as starter whether it was for 1 game or several, then turn it over to Zach. 

[C Mart]

1 hour ago, RevisIsland610 said:

The Zach apologists still don't get it. I don't care if he was playing the Bears. There is no way ZW would have been even close to the polished and efficient manner in which White lead the offense. NO WAY!!! Wilson hasn't completed passes to 10 different receivers in 2 years. Mike White is by far the better QB. I hope when White throws for 300 yards against the Vikings this idiotic narrative will stop. 

Here’s a question that we don’t know the answer to. How would have 2nd yr Mike White looked Sunday vs the Bears. 

[JohnnyLV]

35 minutes ago, JoeFan said:

You make valid points.  However, I wonder about Zach’s skills in a couple of areas being somewhat difficult to improve, even with the best, most experienced coaching.  Most importantly, I don’t think that he sees the field well.  I believe that this skill can improve over time,  but some people are slower readers than others, whether we are talking about a book or a defense.

 

 

I don't agree with this. I think Zach's issues are on the mental side. I think so much focus was placed on not making mistakes that he does that at all costs, and we KNOW he is an emotional player and needs to get in a rhythm and gain confidence. It is something that is tough to fix but I think intellectually Zach is really advanced. He was coached poorly and not in a way to build his confidence. Also he has played at most 5 games with the same WR and OL group. I think we roll with White for now, but he is not a slam dunk to even resign. We will need to see how he plays the next few weeks. I hope he plays well but Zach is still likely the future at least as it concerns next year.

[hotrodcharlie]

1 hour ago, Trotter said:

Any consideration to bringing Norv Turner in next year to work specifically with the Qb's?

I know he is a coordinator with the panthers and most likely they are cleaning house.

Always respected the guy and his work with qb's seems to be admired thru the league. He would certainly be a positive teacher for Zach if the plans are keep him around in 2023 and if Mike White continues to be the starter, would be an asset to him as well.  

Too old

the guy is 70+ and will have been out of the game for 5 years. 

 

[HighPitch]

How did this turn into a zach thread?

 

The question was IF MW plays strongly to finish the year, what is the number?

 

If he plays lights out for 5/6 next games, you pay him ANYTHING HE WANTS/franchise tag. This would be the easy. The hard part is what if he plays well, but not elite. IDK thats a tough call

[HighPitch]

and on another note.....the nfl has to make some kind of rule where a coach has to work for a team for 2 or 3 years before he can be swayed away even if its for a head coaching job. there is too much turnover and it is annoying as f

[hotrodcharlie]

9 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

I don't agree with this. I think Zach's issues are on the mental side. I think so much focus was placed on not making mistakes that he does that at all costs, and we KNOW he is an emotional player and needs to get in a rhythm and gain confidence. It is something that is tough to fix but I think intellectually Zach is really advanced. He was coached poorly and not in a way to build his confidence. Also he has played at most 5 games with the same WR and OL group. I think we roll with White for now, but he is not a slam dunk to even resign. We will need to see how he plays the next few weeks. I hope he plays well but Zach is still likely the future at least as it concerns next year.

Tired of hearing about his confidence. I disagree that he's "intellectually advanced." An intellectually advanced QB isn't an emotional player. They are calm, cool and collected.  I think Wilson is on the dumber side of NFL QBs

[hotrodcharlie]

3 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

How did this turn into a zach thread?

 

The question was IF MW plays strongly to finish the year, what is the number?

 

If he plays lights out for 5/6 next games, you pay him ANYTHING HE WANTS/franchise tag. This would be the easy. The hard part is what if he plays well, but not elite. IDK thats a tough call

Its kinda like impossible to answer at this point. Playing strongly or lights out is an opinion really so we'd have to know what that means first. 

[HighPitch]

Just now, hotrodcharlie said:

Its kinda like impossible to answer at this point. Playing strongly or lights out is an opinion really so we'd have to know what that means first. 

not really. If mike white plays lights out that means he goes

 

5-1 the rest of the way. Back up the brinks truck then

4-2, Im paying a lot

3-3 Im super interested, but very stressed and full of anxiety

[hotrodcharlie]

6 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

not really. If mike white plays lights out that means he goes

 

5-1 the rest of the way. Back up the brinks truck then

4-2, Im paying a lot

3-3 Im super interested, but very stressed and full of anxiety

as we've seen all year, a QB's win/loss record is not indicative of how well/poorly they are playing

[JohnnyLV]

17 minutes ago, hotrodcharlie said:

Tired of hearing about his confidence. I disagree that he's "intellectually advanced." An intellectually advanced QB isn't an emotional player. They are calm, cool and collected.  I think Wilson is on the dumber side of NFL QBs

You can think what you like but he is definitely not on the dumber side of QBs

[hotrodcharlie]

11 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

You can think what you like but he is definitely not on the dumber side of QBs

Yes he is. It's dumb to run backwards from the rush. (turning an easy 5 yard pass into a 15 yard pass)

It's dumb to not get the ball out quickly when you have as many playmakers as he has. And it is dumb to chuck the ball up for grabs into a group of New England Patriots defenders

Surely the Jets coaches or his expensive personal QB coaches or Flacco/White or Eli Moore have told him this multiple times

[LIJetsFan]

Just curious:

If MW walks and gets a super contract in FA is a 3rd the highest comp pick we'd get?  

[HighPitch]

8 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

Just curious:

If MW walks and gets a super contract in FA is a 3rd the highest comp pick we'd get?  

NOOOOOOOO bad juju

[HighPitch]

46 minutes ago, hotrodcharlie said:

as we've seen all year, a QB's win/loss record is not indicative of how well/poorly they are playing

Ok  lest say he goes 5-1 AND passes the eye test big time

[Beerfish]

Cut this turkey right now!

He is a Florida Panthers fan!

https://www.nhl.com/news/mike-white-joins-nhl-fantasy-on-ice-podcast/c-338254986?tid=277729150

 

[Adoni Beast]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

Also fair perspective, but drafting a QB in the top 10 is different than other positions. You're drafting that player high because you know he has rare talent, and the organization has the intent/hope to develop that talent into an elite QB who can be your QB for 10+ years. If that's the end result, sacrificing a few games or even 1-2 seasons should mean very little in the grand scheme of things. It used to be commonplace to have your "franchise" QB begin his career as a 2nd/3rd string until Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco showed teams could still find success with rookie QBs. 

Every player grows at a different pace, and the most common talent comparison for Wilson was two of the game's best QBs in Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Rodgers for a reason. Like both of them, he was a raw prospect that had his fair share of fundamental/decision making flaws but stylistically resembled the play-making ability and arm talent both players had in college, which transitioned to the pros. Rodgers fell to 24 because of them, Mahomes to 10. I don't think enough people realize how awful Mahomes fundamentals were when he was entering the league (far worse than Zach's), but the talent was so tantalizing that I personally wanted the Jets to draft him at 6 and develop him behind Fitzpatrick. He was so reminiscent of Favre/Rodgers, and I think the same feeling was/is shared for Zach among some of the most well respected talent evaluators around. 

I get that Rodgers was behind Favre and Mahomes behind Alex Smith, but if teams re-drafted and started either player day 1, they're most likely not becoming the player they are today. But if you told San Francisco (or Chicago) that they can draft Mahomes, sit him for a year, and get something close to that now they sign up for it 100/100 times. I personally felt the Jets did not do enough to bring back Joe Flacco, who they could've had begin the season as starter whether it was for 1 game or several, then turn it over to Zach. 

I for the life of me will never understand starting Zack Wilson Day 1 or even at all during the first season.

They really needed to have him sit and learn as you stated.

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, football guy said:

The argument is that the Jets coaching staff is tasked with developing Zach Wilson into a polished and efficient quarterback.

I would disagree with this premise.

• The Jets coaching staff is tasked with winning, first and foremost.
• The Jets coaching staff is tasked with identifying the best QB on the roster, second, and supporting them.
• The Jets coaching staff is tasked with developing the #2 and #3 QB as appropriate, third.

None of these require that it be Zach and only Zach.  

2 hours ago, football guy said:

I don't believe Zach would have played as efficiently as MW did, but I do think that he would've had a good performance given how bad the Bears defense was/how many times the first read was wide open.

Zach has played several equally poor defenses in his career to date.  He never looked as good as White looked Sunday.

2 hours ago, football guy said:

Those who feel you need to play the player who gives you the best chance to win in the present are right to want Mike White at QB. 

Obviously.  Even the most Zach-obsessed fan can no longer claim to the contrary.

2 hours ago, football guy said:

Those who feel that competitively developing Zach Wilson gives the team the best chance to win long-term are right to want Zach Wilson at QB.

There is a more than adequate argument that Zach is a bust, and will never "develop" into this elite franchise QB his most loyal fans think he will.  In which case playing him at all is wasted time better spent on other QB's who have yet to definitively prove they are busts.

2 hours ago, football guy said:

My personal opinion is and has been that the Jets had two really bad screw ups through Zach's development thus far: 

1. They should have never started Zach day 1.  I'm very much against anointing rookie QBs as day 1 starters; I would rather sit a talented player and allow them to develop at a more methodical pace, even if it means sitting the player for 1+ seasons.  I think they rationalized starting him because he was familiar enough with the offense and playbook to make it work, but I feel it was egregious to start him day 1 when you consider he was trying to make the jump from BYU to NFL and had clear issues with his footwork early last year

And yet, almost every Zach believer demanded he start Day 1.  And without any kind of competition.

People cannot have it both ways.  They cannot demand (as most fans did) he start day 1 and with limited other QB's on the roster, then claim the Jets made an error doing exactly what they were demanding.

The #2 overall pick SHOULD be capable of starting Day 1.  Zach simply wasn't.

2 hours ago, football guy said:

1. The lack veteran coaching on offense. Greg Knapp was hired specifically to assist with developing Zach Wilson the player and Rob Calabrese the coach. The intent of hiring Calabrese in the first place was because the staff identified him as an up-and-coming talent who could eventually become a passing game coordinator/offensive coordinator. As most of us know, Knapp tragically passed right before training camp. They waited until training camp was over to hire his replacement in Matt Cavanaugh.  Then they hired John Beck midseason to help be more hands-on with Zach Wilson fundamentally.  They had an opportunity to bring in a veteran coach this past offseason and they declined to do so.  I believe that was a glaring misstep by the organization considering how "raw" of a coach Calabrese is. 

Dear lord, Knapp's death was tragic, but Zach has had more than enough coaching.  

I think some folks need to start considering that their rosy evaluations of Zach were flawed, and that he is in fact a bust.  Not because the Jets screwed him, but because he just wasn't and isn't NFL starter material.

[David Harris]

4 hours ago, doitny said:

your worth with someone is willing to pay. if he leads us to the playoffs i can see a team offering 20 mil for 2 years to see if he is the real deal. question is do we match that?

we better start showing him some love before that cause if he thinks there is a chance we want to start Zach next year cause its too soon not to give him another chance he will go to a team who is not forced to start a high draft pick. 

I think a lot of incentives based on starts. Similar to Jimmy G’s this year.

[Dunnie]

2 hours ago, HighPitch said:

not really. If mike white plays lights out that means he goes

 

5-1 the rest of the way. Back up the brinks truck then

4-2, Im paying a lot

3-3 Im super interested, but very stressed and full of anxiety

Problem is there is only 1 real defense in the last 6 games.

[Dunnie]

57 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I would disagree with this premise.

• The Jets coaching staff is tasked with winning, first and foremost.
• The Jets coaching staff is tasked with identifying the best QB on the roster, second, and supporting them.
• The Jets coaching staff is tasked with developing the #2 and #3 QB as appropriate, third.

None of these require that it be Zach and only Zach.  

Zach has played several equally poor defenses in his career to date.  He never looked as good as White looked Sunday.

Obviously.  Even the most Zach-obsessed fan can no longer claim to the contrary.

There is a more than adequate argument that Zach is a bust, and will never "develop" into this elite franchise QB his most loyal fans think he will.  In which case playing him at all is wasted time better spent on other QB's who have yet to definitively prove they are busts.

And yet, almost every Zach believer demanded he start Day 1.  And without any kind of competition.

People cannot have it both ways.  They cannot demand (as most fans did) he start day 1 and with limited other QB's on the roster, then claim the Jets made an error doing exactly what they were demanding.

The #2 overall pick SHOULD be capable of starting Day 1.  Zach simply wasn't.

Dear lord, Knapp's death was tragic, but Zach has had more than enough coaching.  

I think some folks need to start considering that their rosy evaluations of Zach were flawed, and that he is in fact a bust.  Not because the Jets screwed him, but because he just wasn't and isn't NFL starter material.

Fish .. I think your perspective is totally valid .. but I also think that we have seen enough to think that there maybe ELITE unharnessed talent in Zach that cannot be coached.  It is likely he will bust ... but if he turns into what those that see potential in him think he can be ... its a very uncommon thing.  Being Trent Dilfer is NOT uncommon .. and precisely what many believe Mike White is.  Hey if White starts I root for for him because he is the QB1 of the NYJ.  Doesn't mean I have to exaggerate his talent level with each post.

[Jet Nut]

6 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Perhaps the Mike and Mike Show will be taken on the road? If Mike White continues to complete nearly 70% of his passes and leads the Jets to the playoffs and then continues to play well in the playoffs, watch out for a QB and coach needy team hiring Mike Lafleur and Signing Mike White to a big deal believing it will provide instant offensive success -- Panthers, Texans, Colts - I'd add the Broncos if they weren't in Russell Wilson Cap Hell.

If he leads the Jets to the playoffs or just continues to play as he has no one is signing Mike White, the Jets are.

[rangerous]

4 hours ago, RevisIsland610 said:

The Zach apologists still don't get it. I don't care if he was playing the Bears. There is no way ZW would have been even close to the polished and efficient manner in which White lead the offense. NO WAY!!! Wilson hasn't completed passes to 10 different receivers in 2 years. Mike White is by far the better QB. I hope when White throws for 300 yards against the Vikings this idiotic narrative will stop. 

that's fine but let's see mike white do as well against the vikings and then the bills before putting him in the ring of honor.  go look at last years bills game.  you'll see a whole lot of mike white chucking and ducking.  he was throwing off balance because of the pass rush.  he's going to be seeing an awful lot of it on sunday.  i'm not saying he can't get the job done just that i'm from missouri.  show me.