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Will Mike White become the franchise QB of the NY Jets?


Will Mike White become the franchise QB of the NY Jets?  

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  1. 1. Will Mike White become the franchise QB of the NY Jets?


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  • Poll closed on 12/07/2022 at 12:00 AM

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1 hour ago, football guy said:

The NFL is overreaction szn. It’s never as good as it seems or as bad as it seems.

Mike White is most comparable to Nick Foles in terms of his strengths/weaknesses/playing style/ceiling. It’s a very easy comparison, and maybe even a generous one, but I feel good about it. 

In 2012, Nick Foles came in down the stretch of his rookie season and had some crazy production games which prompted Andy Reid to declare him starter over Vick for the remainder of the season. His TD numbers weren’t nuts and he didn’t win much, but he had the arm strength, the size, the production, the quick decisions, the poise, toughness, etc. It “looked good” as many fans would say. Andy Reid ultimately was fired and Chip Kelly was hired. Foles was demoted to backup behind Vick to begin 2013. Vick struggled to adapt to the scheme and was having a poor season. When he got hurt, Foles got another opportunity. He went on to have one of the most statistically productive seasons ever, as well as one of the best statistical games ever. He went 8-2 in his 10 starts, averaged 18.4/28.7 (64.11%), 264.5 yards (9.22 YPA), 2.4 TD:0.2 INT per game. He threw for over 400 yards twice (28 attempts and 48 attempts), otherwise never needed to throw the ball more than 34 times a game given the margin of victory. 

Some smart yet bold evaluators went on record to say that they didn’t believe Foles was a franchise QB. They were ridiculed for it, and you heard all his teammates and coaches come to his defense: leader, outstanding worker, excellent smarts, competitor, tough, moxxy, poised, etc. Everyone loved him throughout his career- which was all over his eagles scouting report as well.  He battled injuries and poor play the following season, yet despite going 14-4 as starter in 2013-14, he was traded away for Sam Bradford in 2015. Foles had better stats, better record, better everything, but the Eagles still were willing to mortgage him and high draft picks for Bradford, who had the projectable arm talent and anticipation that they felt was far superior to Foles’ and while Foles ran the offense extremely efficiently, they felt the talent and scheme around him were the primary reasons for his success and that he lacked the natural gifts which would put the team over the top/allow them to beat top-notch defenses when the scheme and talent weren’t enough. It did not go as planned and everything went south, but in hindsight many felt Chip Kelly’s reasoning was right, he just underestimated how quickly Bradford would adjust to the new team and how much injuries had taken a toll on him. Bradford was a franchise QB talent that just couldn’t stay healthy and was forced to retire early because of it. Foles would make the rounds back to PHI, replaced an injured Wentz, played extremely well, became the locker room favorite, won a Super Bowl MVP, and reached cult hero legendary status (“Big Dick Nick”, statue outside the stadium), yet he returned to being a backup. Every other team who convinced themselves he could be a franchise QB for them overpaid and paid the ultimate price of it blowing up in their faces. Now we’re finally back to accepting him as one of the better backup QBs in the NFL. 

So after all this, why isn’t Nick Foles a franchise QB?

He is a “see it throw it” QB who performs best in a certain systems which incorporate heavy RPO, play-action, and motion which helps identify who the “hot” receiver is. He doesn’t throw with top-end velocity despite his arm strength, and is most accurate as a “finesse” thrower because he loses accuracy when he taps into his arm. He can read the field and is able to progress through options but more often than not is locking onto the first read and predetermining his throws. His drop backs, throwing motion, release, and pocket movement are technically sound but very deliberate and elongated due to his heavy feet and lack of explosive traits, but still has enough talent to get the job done. From Greg Cosell: “He is a quarterback that needs the system to work for him and provide defined reads and good throws with the route concepts, just the whole system. He needs the system to work for him… because he’s not a quick-twitch guy, when he doesn’t feel comfortable making a throw he’ll start to look a little awkward because he’s not quick twitch.” When he’s on a talented football team with a good offensive scheme, he manages the game with great efficiency. He routinely knows where to go with the ball on-time, hits all the easy throws fairly consistently and has enough arm to throw into tighter windows. Having been said, his lack of anticipation leads him to struggle throwing against man/tight coverage consistently because while knowing where to go with the ball, he throws with inconsistent ball placement and tends to be late on horizontal routes/high on vertical routes in the intermediate-to-deep throws. He lacks the kind of arm talent and athletic skill that QBs who lack anticipation require to have sustainable success in the NFL, and he has virtually no upside when plays break down given his limited athleticism and inconsistent ability to throw on the run. He’ll get away with it against defenses who frequently play zone or who have weak pass defenses, but can not consistently overcome a top-end pass defense or tight man coverage, even with the most talented teams. He has had his share of “linsanity” moments, but does not have the level of skill required to consistently and sustainably be a “closer” and lift a team up when needed, especially one lacking talent. He’s a point-guard at QB, with his greatest trait being his decisiveness, and will likely always perform in smart offensive schemes that take advantage of defenses that lack speed and decisiveness, which result in wide-open looks and checkdowns. The problem is defenses always catch up, find ways to play you differently with faster personnel and their own improved  schemes, and when that happens the QB play falters unless the offense scheme can evolve again and do things that confuse defenses enough to regain that edge again. 

 

I know fans don’t want to hear it, but this is to an extent who Mike White is. It’s who the Jets think Mike White is/can be. By no means is that a criticism. Can this player start in the NFL? Yes. Can they perform in the NFL? Yes. Can this player be good enough to complete for a championship on a high quality team? Yes. Having been said, these QBs tend to not be the most sustainably good; their play craters when things aren’t going right around them whether it be against very skilled/fast defenses who can play man coverage and rush the passer or do to the scheme/talent around them regressing. Hypothetically speaking this kind of player can be a long-term QB if the offensive staff remains intact? the scheme keeps evolving every year, and the talent is consistently being replenished, but chances are that situation is unlikely, and the coach will eventually get tired of having to scheme everything perfectly for production, will hit walls when facing a tough defense, little chance of winning a shootout, which results in them seeking the opposite: a guy who has all the traits and arm talent that they can mold into an efficient QB with playmaking ability (see Jimmy G vs. Trey Lance). 
 

I know this is a long response and one a lot of you guys will hate. It is what it is. Just try to enjoy the ride without having to worry about whether Mike White is the long-term answer or not. Maybe he reverts to being a backup, maybe he signs with another team who tries to make him a long-term QB, maybe he makes a deal with the devil or joins the TB12 method and miraculously develops inherinet qualities that he currently doesn’t possess- I don’t know. But at the end of the day just hope that he wins and can keep the playoff hopes alive. If not, we’ll see what next week brings. 

if your right so be it, but this team needs to know Zach isnt the guy.

what pisses me off is that they must know the odds of Zach turning it around are slim. if they had to bet real money on it they never would. yet because FA know they want to give him a try next year we wont get anyone good to compete in a rigged competition. and really why should they care. if they get fired they will just get another job somewhere else. Carolina thought they were smarter than everybody else too with Sam Darnold and failed. Rhule gets fired and is sitting home collecting the remainder of his nice contract. he will be a HC again in college. and Joe Brady gets fired and now is the QB coach for the Bills. he will be and OC again too. its the Carolina fans who suffered in the end, just like we will be when they try to give Zach another shot next year.

then when it fails and it will they all get fired for blowing up the season on Zach. Saleh after his contract runs out will be a DC again and MLF will get demoted to QB coach for a year or 2 then back to OC. but if they looked at stats or history, they would know they have a better chance of hitting lotto than making Zach Wilson a FQB. 

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7 minutes ago, doitny said:

if your right so be it, but this team needs to know Zach isnt the guy.

what pisses me off is that they must know the odds of Zach turning it around are slim. if they had to bet real money on it they never would. yet because FA know they want to give him a try next year we wont get anyone good to compete in a rigged competition. and really why should they care. if they get fired they will just get another job somewhere else. Carolina thought they were smarter than everybody else too with Sam Darnold and failed. Rhule gets fired and is sitting home collecting the remainder of his nice contract. he will be a HC again in college. and Joe Brady gets fired and now is the QB coach for the Bills. he will be and OC again too. its the Carolina fans who suffered in the end, just like we will be when they try to give Zach another shot next year.

then when it fails and it will they all get fired for blowing up the season on Zach. Saleh after his contract runs out will be a DC again and MLF will get demoted to QB coach for a year or 2 then back to OC. but if they looked at stats or history, they would know they have a better chance of hitting lotto than making Zach Wilson a FQB. 

I don’t mean to come off sounding like a know-it-all, but teams really don’t approach things the way fans and media assume they do. They don’t say “oh, it didn’t work for these players so we should bail now and accept .” The good teams don’t make faulty generalizations, they don’t use proof by example, and they very rarely jump to conclusions unless they are absolutely sure they need to move on. That much is consistent. What’s inconsistent is how general managers approach team building and developing talent. Many do fall for the sunk cost fallacy for different reasons whether it be investment in a player, job security, ego, etc. Others have embraced sunk cost logic (think Rams). There’s not a lot of proof as to whose right one way or another. If you look at the Rams, their embracing of sunk cost has lead to some big-time successes but also failures. They’ve cut/trade a number of young players who didn’t develop quick enough that went on to become really good professionals (JFM is one that’s local to us), and they very well may have ruined any chance at sustainable success by selling out for the championship last year.

Now flip over to Joe Douglas. Joe is the opposite of this, specifically as it relates to his investment in talent. For better or for worse, Joe Douglas believes that the players he identifies have what it takes to be developed into good pros. It may happen immediately or it may take 5 years, but he’s going to want to stick the course with his guys until the point of no return (injury, ineffectiveness, character fit). Even if they’re not starting, he’ll emphasize the need for depth and competition at every position (note how teams who tend to give up on players quickly also lack depth). Every player is his own story, own situation, own context. This is why you never hear him give up on guys like Becton or Mims or Davis or Moore despite all the heat they have gotten from fans, media, etc… every media outlet told you Mims was getting cut or traded, they all claimed Douglas’s praise was merely to increase his trade value, and what happened?  What has happened with Moore? They’re not going to move these guys because they’re going to keep nurturing them, keep developing them, and when their time comes they will get their chance. That’s just how Douglas and Saleh see things. 

So in regards to Wilson specifically: I advise everyone to “take receipts” as coach says. You got about 95% of the media and fans claiming that he’ll never play another snap here again let alone another game this season, he’s gone next year, he’s a sure fire bust, etc. These same people will pretend they never made such knee jerk declarations or they’ll make up stories trying to tell you what changed. Nothing has changed. Zach’s going to get another opportunity; maybe he sinks, maybe he swims, but they’re not going to move on just yet. The problem in the NFL is time, and teams don’t always have the time to develop players whom they invested highly in at their own pace without something significant changing along the way which disrupts said development (coaching changes, scheme changes, regime changes, etc.). This is the very reason why I myself am nervous; if you eek into the playoffs or miss them this year, the expectations next year are going to be that much greater, and the probability of the Jets making a significant splash at QB are very low. If you go into next year with White or Zach or someone else competing for QB and the team falls short of those lofty expectations, someone is getting axed, which would be a black eye for our already battered franchise because I think JD and RS are building something special here. 

 

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4 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Your just going to keep saying this ? Because ?

White had no one open and receivers ran the wrong routes. The OL could not get us a half yard more than one time running the ball yet somehow Mike White was supposed to "Will" us to victory ? Maybe next time White can toss it to one of our WR's and run the damn route himself. 

The facts are our OL failed, our Running game failed, and our receivers dropped balls the entire damn game. If this was Zach playing it would have been considered the best game he ever played and I personally think White has played much better than this in his 5 starts for us. That being said he did his job and his receivers let him down. I don't expect as many close calls in future games and I also don't expect our offense to fail on so many levels inside the ten yard line as we saw on Sunday. 

Zach took his lumps from the fans because he outright sucked this does not have to be passed on to Mike White because Mike White knows how to play the position and gave us every chance to win yesterday. 

I never said mike white can’t play qb or that zach wilson would have done any better or that white rather than other players on the jets was the reason we lost.

Mike White’s done a great job. The jets did not win a very winnable game vs the vikings. My personable observation of sports from afar and within is that there are some players that no matter what else is happening around them, if winning a game is within their grasp they always seem to find a way to win, and that mike white does not seem to be one of those guys. There are not a lot of those guys and there is no shame in not being one of those guys. 

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On 12/5/2022 at 4:56 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm happy to donate regardless of an outcome, but I'm not wagering anything after 2 weeks of him starting.

If he keeps this up yes he's getting >$12MM/yr.

 

 

 

Easily. Wouldn't be surprised if its 15 mil. If not from us than one of the many teams that will be looking for a QB upgrade this offseason.

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10 hours ago, football guy said:

The NFL is overreaction szn. It’s never as good as it seems or as bad as it seems.

Mike White is most comparable to Nick Foles in terms of his strengths/weaknesses/playing style/ceiling. It’s a very easy comparison, and maybe even a generous one, but I feel good about it. 

In 2012, Nick Foles came in down the stretch of his rookie season and had some crazy production games which prompted Andy Reid to declare him starter over Vick for the remainder of the season. His TD numbers weren’t nuts and he didn’t win much, but he had the arm strength, the size, the production, the quick decisions, the poise, toughness, etc. It “looked good” as many fans would say. Andy Reid ultimately was fired and Chip Kelly was hired. Foles was demoted to backup behind Vick to begin 2013. Vick struggled to adapt to the scheme and was having a poor season. When he got hurt, Foles got another opportunity. He went on to have one of the most statistically productive seasons ever, as well as one of the best statistical games ever. He went 8-2 in his 10 starts, averaged 18.4/28.7 (64.11%), 264.5 yards (9.22 YPA), 2.4 TD:0.2 INT per game. He threw for over 400 yards twice (28 attempts and 48 attempts), otherwise never needed to throw the ball more than 34 times a game given the margin of victory. 

Some smart yet bold evaluators went on record to say that they didn’t believe Foles was a franchise QB. They were ridiculed for it, and you heard all his teammates and coaches come to his defense: leader, outstanding worker, excellent smarts, competitor, tough, moxxy, poised, etc. Everyone loved him throughout his career- which was all over his eagles scouting report as well.  He battled injuries and poor play the following season, yet despite going 14-4 as starter in 2013-14, he was traded away for Sam Bradford in 2015. Foles had better stats, better record, better everything, but the Eagles still were willing to mortgage him and high draft picks for Bradford, who had the projectable arm talent and anticipation that they felt was far superior to Foles’ and while Foles ran the offense extremely efficiently, they felt the talent and scheme around him were the primary reasons for his success and that he lacked the natural gifts which would put the team over the top/allow them to beat top-notch defenses when the scheme and talent weren’t enough. It did not go as planned and everything went south, but in hindsight many felt Chip Kelly’s reasoning was right, he just underestimated how quickly Bradford would adjust to the new team and how much injuries had taken a toll on him. Bradford was a franchise QB talent that just couldn’t stay healthy and was forced to retire early because of it. Foles would make the rounds back to PHI, replaced an injured Wentz, played extremely well, became the locker room favorite, won a Super Bowl MVP, and reached cult hero legendary status (“Big Dick Nick”, statue outside the stadium), yet he returned to being a backup. Every other team who convinced themselves he could be a franchise QB for them overpaid and paid the ultimate price of it blowing up in their faces. Now we’re finally back to accepting him as one of the better backup QBs in the NFL. 

So after all this, why isn’t Nick Foles a franchise QB?

He is a “see it throw it” QB who performs best in a certain systems which incorporate heavy RPO, play-action, and motion which helps identify who the “hot” receiver is. He doesn’t throw with top-end velocity despite his arm strength, and is most accurate as a “finesse” thrower because he loses accuracy when he taps into his arm. He can read the field and is able to progress through options but more often than not is locking onto the first read and predetermining his throws. His drop backs, throwing motion, release, and pocket movement are technically sound but very deliberate and elongated due to his heavy feet and lack of explosive traits, but still has enough talent to get the job done. From Greg Cosell: “He is a quarterback that needs the system to work for him and provide defined reads and good throws with the route concepts, just the whole system. He needs the system to work for him… because he’s not a quick-twitch guy, when he doesn’t feel comfortable making a throw he’ll start to look a little awkward because he’s not quick twitch.” When he’s on a talented football team with a good offensive scheme, he manages the game with great efficiency. He routinely knows where to go with the ball on-time, hits all the easy throws fairly consistently and has enough arm to throw into tighter windows. Having been said, his lack of anticipation leads him to struggle throwing against man/tight coverage consistently because while knowing where to go with the ball, he throws with inconsistent ball placement and tends to be late on horizontal routes/high on vertical routes in the intermediate-to-deep throws. He lacks the kind of arm talent and athletic skill that QBs who lack anticipation require to have sustainable success in the NFL, and he has virtually no upside when plays break down given his limited athleticism and inconsistent ability to throw on the run. He’ll get away with it against defenses who frequently play zone or who have weak pass defenses, but can not consistently overcome a top-end pass defense or tight man coverage, even with the most talented teams. He has had his share of “linsanity” moments, but does not have the level of skill required to consistently and sustainably be a “closer” and lift a team up when needed, especially one lacking talent. He’s a point-guard at QB, with his greatest trait being his decisiveness, and will likely always perform in smart offensive schemes that take advantage of defenses that lack speed and decisiveness, which result in wide-open looks and checkdowns. The problem is defenses always catch up, find ways to play you differently with faster personnel and their own improved  schemes, and when that happens the QB play falters unless the offense scheme can evolve again and do things that confuse defenses enough to regain that edge again. 

 

I know fans don’t want to hear it, but this is to an extent who Mike White is. It’s who the Jets think Mike White is/can be. By no means is that a criticism. Can this player start in the NFL? Yes. Can they perform in the NFL? Yes. Can this player be good enough to complete for a championship on a high quality team? Yes. Having been said, these QBs tend to not be the most sustainably good; their play craters when things aren’t going right around them whether it be against very skilled/fast defenses who can play man coverage and rush the passer or do to the scheme/talent around them regressing. Hypothetically speaking this kind of player can be a long-term QB if the offensive staff remains intact? the scheme keeps evolving every year, and the talent is consistently being replenished, but chances are that situation is unlikely, and the coach will eventually get tired of having to scheme everything perfectly for production, will hit walls when facing a tough defense, little chance of winning a shootout, which results in them seeking the opposite: a guy who has all the traits and arm talent that they can mold into an efficient QB with playmaking ability (see Jimmy G vs. Trey Lance). 
 

I know this is a long response and one a lot of you guys will hate. It is what it is. Just try to enjoy the ride without having to worry about whether Mike White is the long-term answer or not. Maybe he reverts to being a backup, maybe he signs with another team who tries to make him a long-term QB, maybe he makes a deal with the devil or joins the TB12 method and miraculously develops inherinet qualities that he currently doesn’t possess- I don’t know. But at the end of the day just hope that he wins and can keep the playoff hopes alive. If not, we’ll see what next week brings. 

Foles is probably a fair comparison and I agree with some of your assessment regarding Mike White's limitations - but we need to be clear that there are two distinct issues here that should not be conflated: 1) Is Mike White a franchise QB? IMO, the only fair answer to this right now is "too early to tell."  2) Does Mike White give this team a better chance to win games than Zach Wilson? IMO, the only fair answer to this right now is "yes." 

I'm focused on issue #2 right now. 

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7 hours ago, football guy said:

I don’t mean to come off sounding like a know-it-all,

i didnt mean you, i know your just relaying messages. 

 

7 hours ago, football guy said:

but teams really don’t approach things the way fans and media assume they do. They don’t say “oh, it didn’t work for these players so we should bail now and accept .”

and thats why they get fired. their boss is a fan. Woody is going to see that Wilson is right now just as bad as Jamarcus Russell. that he is the worst QB right now of the last 3 Jet busts. that Josh Allen was the only one out of the last 22 1st rd picks to overcome such a bad start. god only knows what other stats of being this bad will come out next. Woody is going to say WTF is wrong with these guys. Cimini, Hughes.... every Tom, Dick and Harry on twitter knows how historically bad Zach is and you guys dont? bye

 

7 hours ago, football guy said:

They’ve cut/trade a number of young players who didn’t develop quick enough that went on to become really good professionals (JFM is one that’s local to us),

yeah but how many of those are QBs.? nobody can wait 10 years for Geno to figure it out.

 

8 hours ago, football guy said:

For better or for worse, Joe Douglas believes that the players he identifies have what it takes to be developed into good pros.

looking at JD history he got lucky with Joe Flacco starting and being a FQB from day 1. but as a scout in 2003 they drafted Kyle Boller 1-19. he put up some Zach Wilson numbers for 2 years and they start year 3 with him and Anthony Wright (2005) and won 6 games. so thats proof to your point that even though he wasnt the boss thats where he learned being a GM. and thats scary. 

next year they bring in 33 yr old Steve McNair and win 13 games. but Bollers not done. he comes back for year 5. starts 8 games in McNairs last year. its real scary to think we got to sit though Zach all this time before they bring in someone else. lets hope he learned from this.

8 hours ago, football guy said:

So in regards to Wilson specifically: I advise everyone to “take receipts”

thats cool. im down for that Zach Wilson is a bust.

 

8 hours ago, football guy said:

If you go into next year with White or Zach or someone else competing for QB and the team falls short of those lofty expectations, someone is getting axed, which would be a black eye for our already battered franchise because I think JD and RS are building something special here. 

i love what they did here so far. but your right. i think next year Zach starts with a short leash, White will come in to try to save the season somewhere around week 5-7 and if we miss the playoffs there gone. only thing that saves them is that if we make it this year with White and they start White next year and hes not the guy. they could say after a really good finish in 2022 we thought White could be the guy and was worth a chance considering nobody else was available. no way in gods green earth should Zach Wilson start next year.

did you hear anything on why that meeting went 2 hours later? some here think they were waiting for Woody to break a tie on whether to bench Zach. i find it hard to believe the CS wasnt 100% behind benching him after that horrible NE game.

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