There is no reasonable argument to start Z.Wilson

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Looking at the Jets options, Zach has proven to be the best so far. 

Lets draw this out. 

Apart from the fact the team won (credit for which is not due solely to Zach), what specifically makes Zach the "best" so far?

[Biggs]

18 minutes ago, OCCH23 said:

And what if he doesn't win?  He puts up the same exact stats but loses?  You're still happy?  You wouldn't have expected more from a competent QB?

Zack best traits that day is he didn't make us lose.  But those stats aren't going to win many games either . . .

Most teams that win games have less pass attempts and less passing yards than teams that lose.  If we lose I expect MW to have more attempts and more yards.  If we lose and he has worse stats you should be very concerned.  

[Xtina]

11 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

what flacco and White have done. It crazy but I think we are a point where you can't eve

Srsly?

why even include him in this conversation 

1-2 this season E

[Stark]

11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Lets draw this out. 

Apart from the fact the team won (credit for which is not due solely to Zach), what specifically makes Zach the "best" so far?

Zach has been horrible there is no Zachenberg is the "best" at anything. well except for making bad throws, piroutteing and running backward with a hint of pressure. The best at not showing any sign of top QB play in 20 games. just a middling to bottom tier QB and no one should use the well, Josh Allen.... 

Zachenberg lacks toughness and can't make simple plays consistently after 2 years, now he's in "fundamental camp"

 

Is Mike White the guy? I don't know. But I know that in 25% of the games that Zach has played he seems more "ready" and while he's got a lot to learn, because he basically is a rookie... he does stuff Zach can't seem to do. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

24 minutes ago, Xtina said:

 

 

[JiF]

39 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

The red zone and late drives are why I think Zach won more games.  Zach fell apart against the Pats obviously, but he was doing what was asked for the most part otherwise.  
 

I have questions about MiLF.  His red zone sucks and he tried to save himself for not having a red zone offense with end arounds and trick plays.  Those are fine and fun but you need to have an effective offense without them.  

Won more games than, who?  He's started 7 vs. 2 and 3.  lmfao  The films shows Zach missing guys all over the field.  Multiple games, just leaving huge opportunities, easy first reads, some TD's on the field.  Not even pulling the trigger, etc.  While I agree that he made some big 4th quarter plays, I dont think he was doing what they "asked" of him or he wouldnt be inactive every week now.  lol

I like Lil Mikey, I think he's a fantastic OC who has been held back by a very bad QB.  Proof has been in the production of every other QB and offensive out put when Zach is on the bench.  That said, I agree, he seems to get cute in the RZ, and I dont know why when you have 2 huge TE's, Davis, Mims, big bodied receivers who can go up and get it.  He calls a lot of plays behind the LOS, which I hate.  So I agree, that would be more strongest negative critique of Lil Mikey but I trust him to adjust.  I think he's a great coach. 

 

[OCCH23]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

Here’s the thing Douglas and Saleh don’t care what you or anyone else on this board thinks.   Moore and Mims suck.   They still get snaps.   Becton will be on the team next year.   We have consistently lined up trash on the OL because of injuries.  

Zach is probably going to get a shot at some point again unless MW is actually real good against decent NFL defenses.
 

 

First of all, Moore, Mims and Becton are all light-years ahead of Zack as far as showing what they can do for this team.  If they "suck" that only pushes Zack further down the "suck" scale.

I cannot imagine a scenario where Zack gets a shot as long as we're in playoff contention.  The worst version of Mike White is still better than the best version we've seen of Zack.  If/when we're eliminated?  Then sure -- let's see if the kid learned anything during his break.  But outside of injury, I don't see how White could possibly play bad enough for the CS to decide Wilson gives us a better chance to win . . .

 

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I would be more than happy if MW plays like ZW did against the Bills and wins.

Hate all we want, Zach played well in that win.  I don’t care about yardage 

Saleh was on Seattles staff when they won with D and running the ball down people's throat and with SF who did the same thing.   Seattle won the SB  with Wilson passing for a total of 524 yards in 3 games.   In SF SB run they won the first two playoff games with a total of 208 passing yards.  In last years playoff run the won their first 2 games with a total of 303 passing yards.

The Jets are being modeled to win by controlling TOP, field position and using the passing games for chunk yards to change field position.   

Games where the QB is throwing for over 300 yards against a good team is almost always going to be because we had to and are probably lossing in the second half of games. 

 

[peebag]

10 hours ago, Larz said:

Don’t blame me, we’ve all thought this, but could this get “Jetsy?” with White regressing or the thing I won’t even post?

 

hey battered jets fan syndrome is real 

It's not "battered" Jets fan syndrome.  It's just being a Jets fan.

It is what it is.

[OCCH23]

45 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Most teams that win games have less pass attempts and less passing yards than teams that lose.  If we lose I expect MW to have more attempts and more yards.  If we lose and he has worse stats you should be very concerned.  

Not sure why you're moving the goalposts?  The question wasn't if he loses with stats WORSE than Zack's, just equal to.  I mean, that was a "very good game" by Zack, right?  If Josh Allen moved his team down the field in those final few minutes and pulled out a win, would Zack's stats have magically changed?

There's no comparison between what White currently brings to the table vs. Zack.  If you think there is, I guess we'll agree to disagree . . .

[Biggs]

5 minutes ago, OCCH23 said:

Not sure why you're moving the goalposts?  The question wasn't if he loses with stats WORSE than Zack's, just equal to.  I mean, that was a "very good game" by Zack, right?  If Josh Allen moved his team down the field in those final few minutes and pulled out a win, would Zack's stats have magically changed?

There's no comparison between what White currently brings to the table vs. Zack.  If you think there is, I guess we'll agree to disagree . . .

I haven't moved the goal post.  You think passing yards and TD passes a  QB stats are important to winning.  I think you have it ass backwards.  That's not how the NY Jets are being built. 

The Bills didn't move the ball right down the field because the Jets had pinned them in bad field position and have a good defense.  That's part of the equation.  

Lets pretend the Jets D sucks and our special teams give up tons of field position and we are trailing by double digits in every game.  I would expect huge stats from the QB position. 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, OCCH23 said:

And what if he doesn't win?  He puts up the same exact stats but loses?  You're still happy?  You wouldn't have expected more from a competent QB?

Zack best traits that day is he didn't make us lose.  But those stats aren't going to win many games either . . .

I want a win, you’re spinning this.  Point was he needs to play a clean game.  Like Zach did.  It’s not a MW v ZW spin

[Jets Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, JiFields said:

Zach's ability to scramble is definitely beneficial in the red zone but there seems to be a struggle in general in this dept. as no Jets QB has performed particularly well the redzone this year, though Wilson has been the best of the 3 and truthfully, pretty good if we're being honest abou the situation.  He does do a really good job of protecting the ball down there.

Flacco: 9-23, 39%, 4/1, 2 sacks 

White: 7-19, 37%, 1/1, 1 rushing, 0 sacks

Wilson: 7-15, 50%, 4/0, 1 rushing, 1 receiving, 4 sacks, 1 fumble loss

Would be wonky AF to do this though...

 

Feels like this is where not having a consistent TE threat, big body WR, a healthy O-line, and a power back is hurting us.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Just curious, Taylor Heineicke is currently 5-1-1 (better record as starter than Zach) and has better stats/production than Zach in pretty much every single category, playing on a worse team.

Given your stated logic above, would you then agree that the undrafted ODU Taylor Heineicke is a better QB than Zach Wilson?

Just curious if you're being consist, logic wise, with your arguments focusing on team W/L record in games started.

Do they play for the same team, with the same players, same coaches against the same teams?  
No.  The comparison doesn’t work.

Zach vs White does

[Long Island Leprechaun]

10 hours ago, BurntDice said:

White loses to the Bills. He’s now 1-2. Playoffs are in jeopardy. Bring back the qb who actually wins games and comes in clutch in the big moments. 
 

kidding…kind of. Depending on how bad White looks against his first decent D. 

Depends on how he loses, of course. 

[Jet Nut]

13 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Saleh was on Seattles staff when they won with D and running the ball down people's throat and with SF who did the same thing.   Seattle won the SB  with Wilson passing for a total of 524 yards in 3 games.   In SF SB run they won the first two playoff games with a total of 208 passing yards.  In last years playoff run the won their first 2 games with a total of 303 passing yards.

The Jets are being modeled to win by controlling TOP, field position and using the passing games for chunk yards to change field position.   

Games where the QB is throwing for over 300 yards against a good team is almost always going to be because we had to and are probably lossing in the second half of games. 

 

Seattle and SF then went on to lose SBs they should have won because they turned to the pass late in their games.  If they stayed committed to the run they own rings

[JiF]

39 minutes ago, JiFields said:

Won more games than, who?  He's started 7 vs. 2 and 3.  lmfao  The films shows Zach missing guys all over the field.  Multiple games, just leaving huge opportunities, easy first reads, some TD's on the field.  Not even pulling the trigger, etc.  While I agree that he made some big 4th quarter plays, I dont think he was doing what they "asked" of him or he wouldnt be inactive every week now.  lol

I like Lil Mikey, I think he's a fantastic OC who has been held back by a very bad QB.  Proof has been in the production of every other QB and offensive out put when Zach is on the bench.  That said, I agree, he seems to get cute in the RZ, and I dont know why when you have 2 huge TE's, Davis, Mims, big bodied receivers who can go up and get it.  He calls a lot of plays behind the LOS, which I hate.  So I agree, that would be more strongest negative critique of Lil Mikey but I trust him to adjust.  I think he's a great coach. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

Feels like this is where not having a consistent TE threat, big body WR, a healthy O-line, and a power back is hurting us.

[OCCH23]

24 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I haven't moved the goal post.  You think passing yards and TD passes a  QB stats are important to winning.  I think you have it ass backwards.  That's not how the NY Jets are being built. 

The Bills didn't move the ball right down the field because the Jets had pinned them in bad field position and have a good defense.  That's part of the equation.  

Lets pretend the Jets D sucks and our special teams give up tons of field position and we are trailing by double digits in every game.  I would expect huge stats from the QB position. 

Yet you won't answer the question?  If White puts up the same numbers as Zack did and loses, will you say he played a "very good game"?

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, OCCH23 said:

Yet you won't answer the question?  If White puts up the same numbers as Zack did and loses, will you say he played a "very good game"?

I thought it was a rhetorical question without relevance?

[OCCH23]

25 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I want a win, you’re spinning this.  Point was he needs to play a clean game.  Like Zach did.  It’s not a MW v ZW spin

Um, the title of this thread is "there's no logical argument to start Z. Wilson".   It's ridiculous to say a "win" determines who should be the starter, or even who the better QB is.

Mike White can play lights out and still lose.  Zack Wilson can (and has) play horribly and still win.

If you're saying you'd be content with White putting up a carbon copy of what Zack did, but in a losing effort, then fine.  But the final result shouldn't skew your opinion (unless you think Zack is better than every other QB who hasn't gone 5-2 over his last seven games) . . .

[OCCH23]

2 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I thought it was a rhetorical question without relevance?

To a thread titled "there's no logical argument to starting Z. Wilson", and you try to provide one?

[Biggs]

5 minutes ago, OCCH23 said:

To a thread titled "there's no logical argument to starting Z. Wilson", and you try to provide one?

Are you saying it wasn't rhetorical or you don't know what rhetorical means?  (Could be a trick rhetorical question)

[shawn306]

The only way you will see Zach again this year is if White gets hurt. I think at some point he will move to second string. 

The kid right now is all kinds of messed up. Going to take alot to put him back together again.

[bitonti]

12 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

Where do you find people still making that argument?

Utah

[Jet Nut]

49 minutes ago, OCCH23 said:

Um, the title of this thread is "there's no logical argument to start Z. Wilson".   It's ridiculous to say a "win" determines who should be the starter, or even who the better QB is.

Mike White can play lights out and still lose.  Zack Wilson can (and has) play horribly and still win.

If you're saying you'd be content with White putting up a carbon copy of what Zack did, but in a losing effort, then fine.  But the final result shouldn't skew your opinion (unless you think Zack is better than every other QB who hasn't gone 5-2 over his last seven games) . . .

You do understand I responded to a discussion on Whites numbers and I said if his numbers are ZW like (low yardage) and he wins I’m good with it.  Have no idea what you’re arguing

[OCCH23]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

Are you saying it wasn't rhetorical or you don't know what rhetorical means?  (Could be a trick rhetorical question)

If it was rhetorical I wouldn't be asking for an answer, would I?

Like if I said "you aren't being sincere in this discussion, are you?  You're just providing strawman arguments to defend your baby boy, aren't you?"  Now, THAT would be rhetorical, since the answer is already clear for all to see . . .

[Jetsplayer21]

14 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

5-2 with Zach 

2-3 without Zach 

5-0 in that span with white or Flacco playing against the pats. But since we had the very worst qb in the NFL we are 7-5 instead of easily being top of division at 9-3. 

[Hal N of Provo]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Lets draw this out. 

Apart from the fact the team won (credit for which is not due solely to Zach), what specifically makes Zach the "best" so far?

What else matters? 
 

Zach was better in the redzone and late game drives.   Our OC is going to play himself into a hole with a defensive coaches game plan.  You need a guy who can shake off the chains when the time is right.  

[OCCH23]

33 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You do understand I responded to a discussion on Whites numbers and I said if his numbers are ZW like (low yardage) and he wins I’m good with it.  Have no idea what you’re arguing

Actually, you responded to me responding to someone who "joked" that we should bring back the "better" QB if White loses to the Bills.  You said you'd be fine if White put up Zack's numbers AND WON.  My question (which I don't think you've answered), is what if he put up those same numbers and lost?  What if he played a "clean game" but it wasn't enough?  Does Zack get some sort of extra credit because the rest of the team stepped up in a way they may not on Sunday?

This all becomes irrelevant after Sunday.  He'll either play well or he won't.  They'll either win or they won't.  But it's sad that I already have to brace myself for the possibility that the Zack worshippers (not saying you) will come out of the woodwork if White doesn't win, regardless of how he actually plays . . .

 

[Hal N of Provo]

Just now, OCCH23 said:

Actually, you responded to me responding to someone who "joked" that we should bring back the "better" QB if White loses to the Bills.  You said you'd be fine if White put up Zack's numbers AND WON.  My question (which I don't think you've answered), is what if he put up those same numbers and lost?  What if he played a "clean game" but it wasn't enough?  Does Zack get some sort of extra credit because the rest of the team stepped up in a way they may not on Sunday?

This all becomes irrelevant after Sunday.  He'll either play well or he won't.  They'll either win or they won't.  But it's sad that I already have to brace myself for the possibility that the Zack worshippers (not saying you) will come out of the woodwork if White doesn't win, regardless of how he actually plays . . .

 

You are missing the part where Zach converted on key 3rds and 4ths and the drives when needed most.  

[Jet Nut]

3 minutes ago, OCCH23 said:

Actually, you responded to me responding to someone who "joked" that we should bring back the "better" QB if White loses to the Bills.  You said you'd be fine if White put up Zack's numbers AND WON.  My question (which I don't think you've answered), is what if he put up those same numbers and lost?  What if he played a "clean game" but it wasn't enough?  Does Zack get some sort of extra credit because the rest of the team stepped up in a way they may not on Sunday?

This all becomes irrelevant after Sunday.  He'll either play well or he won't.  They'll either win or they won't.  But it's sad that I already have to brace myself for the possibility that the Zack worshippers (not saying you) will come out of the woodwork if White doesn't win, regardless of how he actually plays . . .

 

Of he plays well and loses nothing happens, why is it even a question.   Zach played well and won, playing well and losing isn’t a crime on the QB.  This isn’t a Zach b White thing

[OCCH23]

1 minute ago, Hal N of Provo said:

You are missing the part where Zach converted on key 3rds and 4ths and the drives when needed most.  

I don't think I'm missing them, I think Zack was.  Getting one highlight a game doesn't mean much when the rest of the game was such utter garbage that he's now on the scout team.

Maybe you forgot that we were a Berrios drop away from White being the hero?  That White still led 6 scoring drives that game?  How many games did it take Zack in total to do the same?

[OCCH23]

3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Of he plays well and loses nothing happens, why is it even a question.   Zach played well and won, playing well and losing isn’t a crime on the QB.  This isn’t a Zach b White thing

I don't know why it's a question.  That's my entire point.  I'm glad we agree, and I look forward to your support in the future if the Zack followers try to argue otherwise . . .

 

[Hal N of Provo]

1 minute ago, OCCH23 said:

I don't think I'm missing them, I think Zack was.  Getting one highlight a game doesn't mean much when the rest of the game was such utter garbage that he's now on the scout team.

Maybe you forgot that we were a Berrios drop away from White being the hero?  That White still led 6 scoring drives that game?  How many games did it take Zack in total to do the same?

White (and MiLF) sucked the entire first half. If the offense functions it’s an easy win.  

[OCCH23]

5 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

White (and MiLF) sucked the entire first half. If the offense functions it’s an easy win.  

As I said in a previous post, if you want to use the word "suck" for White's first half, I'd love to hear what you use to describes the vast majority of Zack's career . . .