SackExchangeNYJ Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 3 hours ago, MR.GANGGREEN28 said: Zach made enough plays to win the game. What the hell was that time management at the end? After that big play to GW, call a timeout and reset. The OL did no favors today in the running game and when it mattered most the protection was dogsh*t. In general, I would agree. However, for the past month, any time White's stats have been compared favorably to Wilson's, the response has been that it's all about wins and losses, often followed with the comment "5-2." So, is the QB responsible for wins and losses, or isn't he? It can't work both ways depending on what fits yours narrative. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 1 minute ago, SackExchangeNYJ said: In general, I would agree. However, for the past month, any time White's stats have been compared favorably to Wilson's, the response has been that it's all about wins and losses, often followed with the comment "5-2." So, is the QB responsible for wins and losses, or isn't he? It can't work both ways depending on what fits yours narrative. It's the degree to which these arguments are being made. You hear Mike White was great, he should take no responsibility for the loss Then you year Zach was terrible and he's entirely responsible for the loss. The reality is QB's are responsible for wins and losses --- but typically not solely. Mikes' been up and down, Zach was up and down today. Neither are fully responsible for the losses. Both should take some responsibility for them. it's the QB's job to help their team win - Zach didn't get it done today. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origen Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 6 minutes ago, ausman said: In the sense that he got them to 17-13 with under 2:00 to play, you’re right. But he also threw a bad INT that produced the ultimate 3 point margin. He had an horrendous 3rd Q where better play would have given the Jets more room for error. However, it’s a team game and special teams gave up 7 points and the D uncharacteristically and inexplicably had a defensive set that allowed a 5 yard pass to turn into a 50 yard TD late. The coaching staff misused the 3 TOs at the end forcing a low percentage 57 yard FG attempt for a tie and OT. The Jets play fiercely and well but make unfortunate mistakes at key times. That’s what teams and players not quite ready for prime time do. The Jets are closer than they have been for a long time, but may not be there just yet. The next 3 games will be telling. Yes, this is something people aren't seeing. Yes, the entire team struggled but it's still just year 2 of being the youngest team in the league! At the beginning of the season people were convinced we were shoe-ins for a top 5 pick and now they are bitching if we miss the playoffs after giving us the most competitive season of football I have seen out of this team is years. Yeah, I want the playoffs, I want a Super Bowl, but this year we were still supposed to suck. This coming offseason the draft is going to be all about filling in spots, not dire needs. We have cap money to spend on real impact players who are seeing what it looks like to win in NY and will want a taste of it. For every guy who complains about NY taxes effecting contract you set him up with a commercial agent so he has so many endorsements in the city he's making more as a pitchman than a player. That's whats coming... I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 14 minutes ago, JetsYanks13 said: Defeated Mike White head to head a few weeks ago. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Awesome, another poster who agrees we should’ve drafted Mac Jones over our guy! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsYanks13 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 In general, I would agree. However, for the past month, any time White's stats have been compared favorably to Wilson's, the response has been that it's all about wins and losses, often followed with the comment "5-2." So, is the QB responsible for wins and losses, or isn't he? It can't work both ways depending on what fits yours narrative.QB’s win and losses is an official stat, fortunately and unfortunately according to your opinion I guess. Tons of things take place in a game to effect a win/loss. Generational guys like Brady, Bree’s, elway have contributed significantly to their W-L record, Elway led “the drive” And I agree, if Zach gets blame for losses, then he gets credit for wins and the same applies to White. Zach’s an easy guy to dump and I don’t think his future is long here, but let’s be fair White didn’t hold a lead in the last 2 games and lost both games. You hold both guys accountable. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsYanks13 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Awesome, another poster who agrees we should’ve drafted Mac Jones over our guy! When did I say that? What is it with some of you posters? I never wanted Mac Jones! To be honest, I wasn’t wild about the Zach pick as well. Not a Cousins guy, but he did in fact beat White and he led the greatest comeback in NFL history. Like him or not, both those statements are true. Just curious, where do you rank mike white amongst starting NFL QB’s? Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Just now, JetsYanks13 said: When did I say that? What is it with some of you posters? I never wanted Mac Jones! To be honest, I wasn’t wild about the Zach pick as well. Not a Cousins guy, but he did in fact beat White and he led the greatest comeback in NFL history. Like him or not, both those statements are true. Just curious, where do you rank mike white amongst starting NFL QB’s? Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Well, if head-to-head records between QBs is your evaluation method, then the conclusion was only natural. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
football guy Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 14 minutes ago, SackExchangeNYJ said: In general, I would agree. However, for the past month, any time White's stats have been compared favorably to Wilson's, the response has been that it's all about wins and losses, often followed with the comment "5-2." So, is the QB responsible for wins and losses, or isn't he? It can't work both ways depending on what fits yours narrative. He’s absolutely responsible. I think the point is trying to pin the loss solely on him, or acting like he played poorly, or persuading oneself that the result would’ve been much different with another QB is ludicrous though. It’s a disappointing loss and had the QB converted on 2 or 3 more throws we probably win the game. For that you fault him because he didn’t execute. But if you come away from this game thinking that Zach Wilson doesn’t have what it takes to be a good QB now or in the future than I can’t help you 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 1 minute ago, football guy said: But if you come away from this game thinking that Zach Wilson doesn’t have what it takes to be a good QB now or in the future than I can’t help you What if we went into the game thinking that? Can you help us then? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsYanks13 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Well, if head-to-head records between QBs is your evaluation method, then the conclusion was only natural.Wins and losses assigned to QB’s is an official stat, not my method, it’s the NFL’s method. As I mentioned earlier, not everyone agrees, but it is in fact an official stat. Years ago, the shows always built up Brady vs Manning and their head to head to head records. It’s part of the game. Also, as I asked earlier: Where do rank Mike White in relation to other starting NFL QB’s? Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 3 minutes ago, JetsYanks13 said: Wins and losses assigned to QB’s is an official stat, not my method, it’s the NFL’s method. As I mentioned earlier, not everyone agrees, but it is in fact an official stat. Years ago, the shows always built up Brady vs Manning and their head to head to head records. It’s part of the game. Also, as I asked earlier: Where do rank Mike White in relation to other starting NFL QB’s? Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Mike White is a bottom quartile starter but sadly represents a significant upgraded over BYU who probably ranks about in the middle of the league’s backups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 14 minutes ago, football guy said: But if you come away from this game thinking that Zach Wilson doesn’t have what it takes to be a good QB now or in the future than I can’t help you Precisely what this garbage organization is gonna try to sell to the fans for another year and an half until the moment they select another QB in the draft in 2024 and we potentially do this sh*t all over again. It never. F***king. Ends. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
football guy Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, jgb said: What if we went into the game thinking that? Can you help us then? Questions of how he would play coming into today were fair. We’ve seen situations like this before where the QB got benched comes back and lost all of his confidence, plays like sh*t, etc. I did not see that today… I saw a player who learned their lesson, was confident and collected, and put his high ceiling talent on display. He needs to get better down to down and needs to be more consistently accurate, but I am by no means discouraged with what I saw today. Anyone who takes the time to watch the all-22 this week should come away impressed or encouraged. No one was running wide open and the lions did a great job of eliminating the layups; aside from the Carter catch (nightmare by the way), there were no fluky completions This Zach is the player we all wanted prior to the season when we didn’t expect to be a playoff team. I think people’s recency bias + heightened expectations for the team are the reasons for pessimism. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsYanks13 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Mike White is a bottom quartile starter but sadly represents a significant upgraded over BYU who probably ranks about in the middle of the league’s backups.I don’t even have him that high to be honest. It just begs the question, a guy you have ranked that low is the same guy who would of led this team to 4 straight wins? He’s a decent player, spot starter, accurate at times. But too many dump offs, lacks arm strength and can’t go over the top of a defense, hence why he couldn’t drive the team down the field at the end of the Bills game. I will say, he seems like a super nice kid and very like able, but in this league you play for pay! You have to win and continue to win. Ribs aside, the O line has been a turnstile, he would of got crushed today. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuicidalSince98 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 20 minutes ago, football guy said: He’s absolutely responsible. I think the point is trying to pin the loss solely on him, or acting like he played poorly, or persuading oneself that the result would’ve been much different with another QB is ludicrous though. It’s a disappointing loss and had the QB converted on 2 or 3 more throws we probably win the game. For that you fault him because he didn’t execute. But if you come away from this game thinking that Zach Wilson doesn’t have what it takes to be a good QB now or in the future than I can’t help you The #1 most important skill any elite QB needs to have is accuracy. Wilson is the least accurate QB I’ve ever seen. I am not sure you can fix that. I did not expect him to look any better today because he needs to completely rebuild himself as a thrower, that is going to take months not weeks. His accuracy is as bad as it’s ever been today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 1 minute ago, football guy said: Questions of how he would play coming into today were fair. We’ve seen situations like this before where the QB got benched comes back and lost all of his confidence, plays like sh*t, etc. I did not see that today… I saw a player who learned their lesson, was confident and collected, and put his high ceiling talent on display. He needs to get better down to down and needs to be more consistently accurate, but I am by no means discouraged with what I saw today. Anyone who takes the time to watch the all-22 this week should come away impressed or encouraged. No one was running wide open and the lions did a great job of eliminating the layups; aside from the Carter catch (nightmare by the way), there were no fluky completions This Zach is the player we all wanted prior to the season when we didn’t expect to be a playoff team. I think people’s recency bias + heightened expectations for the team are the reasons for pessimism. I already said I was positively surprised by his performance today. His big gainers were mostly ducks or horribly under thrown but hey, he didn’t have a mega meltdown. Sad that’s where the bar is now but I guess that’s something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Brown Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 3 hours ago, Grandy said: I do think we have to change our scheme if White is out though. We consistently found success on rollouts. Do those. Wilson did good when just chucking it, but bad intermediate. Do more chucking. It's clear Wilson does not fit this scheme like White, and although that's probably his issue we just have to adapt to his strengths if he's gonna play. Also if he makes a mistake stop hiding him because that might be a reason behind why he shells up when he makes a mistake. Thank you..... Why is this so hard to UNDERSTAND!!! Play to your players' STRENGTHS!!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, JetsYanks13 said: I don’t even have him that high to be honest. It just begs the question, a guy you have ranked that low is the same guy who would of led this team to 4 straight wins? He’s a decent player, spot starter, accurate at times. But too many dump offs, lacks arm strength and can’t go over the top of a defense, hence why he couldn’t drive the team down the field at the end of the Bills game. I will say, he seems like a super nice kid and very like able, but in this league you play for pay! You have to win and continue to win. Ribs aside, the O line has been a turnstile, he would of got crushed today. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app I never said he would have win 4 in a row. Also his arm strength is grossly underestimated. But that aside, I’m just happy to have competent production and performance from the position. People may try to paint me (and others) as wild-eyed zealots for MW, but it’s just that he’s so much better than the other guy and those are our options this season so bring on more MW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
football guy Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Just now, jgb said: I already said I was positively surprised by his performance today. His big gainers were mostly ducks or horribly under thrown but hey, he didn’t have a mega meltdown. Sad that’s where the bar is now but I guess that’s something? Lol awful take. Jeff Smith completion yes, but to state that the rest of the big gainers were ducks or under thrown is a truly asinine take 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Just now, football guy said: Lol awful take. Jeff Smith completion yes, but to state that the rest of the big gainers were ducks or under thrown is a truly asinine take Oh, come on his TD to uzomah and that other long gainer to… can’t remember now were terrible underthrows. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 What positive came out of this game? - and made me feel better about Zach? We've heard for a long time - and rightfully so - that while Zach is athletic and has escapbabily - he never does anything with it. So all that talent is useless if you're not going to do anything. once you get outside the pocket. Two things happened today: 1) When he "escaped" he didn't turn his back - and mostly didn't run backwards but laterally. 2) Because he didn't turn his back he was able to keep his eyes down field...and because he wasn't running backwards he was able to make throws from the proper platform. What today showed is that he can do the off platform stuff - Chunk plays from broken plays are game changing moments. That's where a lot of Zach's success came from today... What Zach still struggled with - and what is most important - he still has very serous issues with accuracy from the pocket. He was, mostly, getting through reads today - - he was mostly fine on the outlets and swing passes The 10, 15, 20 yard ins, outs, slants etc (which is the crux of the offense)...He's just not steady enough with putting those balls where they need to be - and/or controlling the pace to make the ball more catchable. So, ultimately he's still not capable of running the offense efficiently and properly. .Can he figure it out? I have no idea. but the positive was - he showed today he can do the athletic things that can make him special - if he can figure out the basic - which so far he hasn't. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireJet Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 7 minutes ago, football guy said: Questions of how he would play coming into today were fair. We’ve seen situations like this before where the QB got benched comes back and lost all of his confidence, plays like sh*t, etc. I did not see that today… I saw a player who learned their lesson, was confident and collected, and put his high ceiling talent on display. He needs to get better down to down and needs to be more consistently accurate, but I am by no means discouraged with what I saw today. Anyone who takes the time to watch the all-22 this week should come away impressed or encouraged. No one was running wide open and the lions did a great job of eliminating the layups; aside from the Carter catch (nightmare by the way), there were no fluky completions This Zach is the player we all wanted prior to the season when we didn’t expect to be a playoff team. I think people’s recency bias + heightened expectations for the team are the reasons for pessimism. He looked good rolling out chucking the ball but didn’t show MW’s quality of throws within the offense. Too much off-schedule. Too random & not repeatable. The offense is a system. You don’t get to break the system unless you’re Pat Mahomes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Willie White Shoes Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 4 hours ago, JetPotato said: The defense gave up 13 points. Guys, please, think. The defense had no sacks and no turnovers. The Lions were 8-15 on 3rd and 4th down. The defense had the game in its hands and gave up a winning TD with under 2 minutes left on a 50 yard play on 4th and 1. That is never ever a good game by the defense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireJet Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said: Thank you..... Why is this so hard to UNDERSTAND!!! Play to your players' STRENGTHS!!!! Chucking it and hoping for the best is not a sustainable offense. It’s fun, though. Not gonna lie. Kinda like Madden on Sega. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 2 minutes ago, DireJet said: Chucking it and hoping for the best is not a sustainable offense. It’s fun, though. Not gonna lie. Kinda like Madden on Sega. He got very lucky that his prayer balls mostly broke the jets way today. Not sustainable but nonetheless I expected like 140 yards so credit where credit is due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymation Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 4 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said: If Mike White starts we win comfortably. So yeah, it’s on Wilson. Two things: White wasn't available because he got hurt; and he lost against the Vikes whose pass defense is just as bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 5 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said: Thank you..... Why is this so hard to UNDERSTAND!!! Play to your players' STRENGTHS!!!! I actually think it might be because they're trying to "develop" him. I think they want him to learn to play from the pocket. I think it's kinda silly - play to win - help your QB out...but it might just be an organizational deacons. Honesltly, it's hard for me to see why else they wouldn't be rolling him out more often? Could it be incompetence? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsYanks13 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 I never said he would have win 4 in a row. Also his arm strength is grossly underestimated. But that aside, I’m just happy to have competent production and performance from the position. People may try to paint me (and others) as wild-eyed zealots for MW, but it’s just that he’s so much better than the other guy and those are our options this season so bring on more MW.Zach’s no beauty what so ever, but he can go over the top of a defense effortlessly. I believe before the half, he had 28 seconds and even had a chance for a TD. White can not make those deep passes over the top, does not have the arm strength. Now, White at times when in rhythm is pinpoint accurate on intermediate routes. When teams play him, just like Pennington back in the day, he’s not beating you over the top, takes away a chunk of the field to defend. Both him and Zach are flawed for different reasons, unfortunately, they can’t combine their strengths into one player, then you would have a good player. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireJet Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Just now, jgb said: He got very lucky that his prayer balls mostly broke the jets way today. Not sustainable but nonetheless I expected like 140 yards so credit where credit is due. He didn’t play scared so that was encouraging. I thought he was gonna win it there in the 4th. I’d just like to see him master the easy sh*t and then we can all go nuts over the wild scrambles and bombs. Those plays will pop even more once he’s nailing every easy throw within the offensive system. He’s still missing too many of those but the Jets had to have seen some glimpses of talent in there. I think he’s gonna start from here on out. They need to know if he can get better on the easy stuff before cutting bait. It’s not what I want but it’s fair. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 14 minutes ago, football guy said: Lol awful take. Jeff Smith completion yes, but to state that the rest of the big gainers were ducks or under thrown is a truly asinine take Of course. They were very good throws. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I would think what he's looking for is single coverage where the DB has his back turned - and letting his WR got get it. QB's make a living on those throws. It's what half the long passes in the NFL look like. They're not prayer throws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 3 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said: The loss isn't on the backup QB who wasn't even allowed to dress the previous 3 weeks, especially if the team was up with under 2 minutes to go. Well I blame Braden Mann and not sarcasticly 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsYanks13 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Of course. They were very good throws. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I would think what he's looking for is single coverage where the DB has his back turned - and letting his WR got get it. QB's make a living on those throws. It's what half the long passes in the NFL look like.His deep play ability is what moved him up the boards, he’s got a canon for an arm. For better or worse, White can’t make those deep throws. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsYanks13 Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Well I blame Braden Mann and not sarcasticly Fair point, he’s been a train wreck this season and as of late, outside of Greg, specials have been a horror show. Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 Wilson has to go in the offseason. He's holding the team back - every game. He's never played a truly great game his entire NFL career. He doesnt execute the basic throws. And he hasnt gotten noticeably better at this. Plain and simple. Gotta go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted December 19, 2022 Share Posted December 19, 2022 5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said: Of course. They were very good throws. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I would think what he's looking for is single coverage where the DB has his back turned - and letting his WR got get it. QB's make a living on those throws. It's what half the long passes in the NFL look like. The Jeff Smith bomb Smith had to stop and come back 3 yards. The Carter sideline throw was a wounded duck. Watching the uzomah pass from the QB POV angle it didn’t look as bad as from the television default angle. Uzomah had a lot more lateral separation than it appeared live but a great throw still would’ve pushed more vertically and led an open uzomah to open daylight downfield. It was a good throw on re-watch though so mea culpa on that one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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