QB is NOT the biggest problem with this team

[Maxman]

2 hours ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Lefleur is a moron 

how many times is this guy going to run on 2nd and 1

he has no feel for the game or his players 

 

Wait, how many times has he run on 2nd and 1? Did that happen today?

Are the Jets consistently getting 9 yards on first down and I am somehow missing it?

[ZachStepdad]

WHO EVER IS THE MIND BEHIND HAVING BERRIOS ON THE FIELD RUNNING ROUTES SHOULD BE FIRED YESTERDAY…. I THINK THIS IS LAFLEURS CALL AND THIS GUY COST US A WIN AT MIN AND DROPS TODAY…. ONE OF MANY MLF FUK UPS

[Maxman]

51 minutes ago, football guy said:

That’s my biggest complaint. Why can’t he be a little more flexible. I felt the same way about Mims last year… You have a 6’3” freak with great speed and top-notch contested catch ability. Why not give him a small package of plays to run the routes he’s good at? Why can’t you develop the guy in the background/on the fly while also maximizing their talent real time by incorporating plays that suit their strengths? 

I have yet to get a rationale, straight-forward answer on this. And I think the reason comes down to exactly what you’re alluding to: the coordinator is convicted that his system works, and if the players can’t play within the timing and rhythm of it then it’s a they problem not a he problem. Different personalities, different scheme, but very Gasian in this respect.

Josh Johnson looked really good in this system. Mike White looks like Kurt Warner.

Zach was okay today but if he completed over 60% of his passes the Jets win and his game would have been great.

His accuracy is a huge concern. Mechanics were better today, made some really nice throws. But dam still missed more than you want.

[HighPitch]

How is mlf to blame when zach is constantly throwing dirt balls and missing targets by 10 feet?

[Hex]

Zach has an issue of recovering from mistakes. Once he makes one he’s bound to make 30 more. It’s frustrating in every way

That said, the one thing Zach has done well forever is rollouts and he was successful on the 3 or 4 plays that LaFleur called with those. Why MLF didn’t call it more is beyond me. I wouldn’t be sad to see both gone but I would rather LaFleur get canned over Zach at this point.

[HighPitch]

Omg running on 2-1 how unusual ?????

[SuicidalSince98]

10 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Wait, how many times has he run on 2nd and 1? Did that happen today?

Are the Jets consistently getting 9 yards on first down and I am somehow missing it?

I happens every week. 2nd and short run, football 101 says to take a shot in that situation 

[Maxman]

4 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

I happens every week. 2nd and short run, football 101 says to take a shot in that situation 

It has happened every week this year? 

• The Jets got 9 yards on 1st down.
• The Jets ran on 2nd down and didn't get the first down.

This is a big trend that I am missing. I don't remember that many 9 year first down plays.

I assume they didn't get it on 3rd and short either, thus your outrage.

Not sure if you saw my other post. I am trying to offer you a way out. Do you want the other user name back? We have to wind this one down, it isn't working.

[Maxman]

16 minutes ago, Hex said:

Zach has an issue of recovering from mistakes. Once he makes one he’s bound to make 30 more. It’s frustrating in every way

That said, the one thing Zach has done well forever is rollouts and he was successful on the 3 or 4 plays that LaFleur called with those. Why MLF didn’t call it more is beyond me. I wouldn’t be sad to see both gone but I would rather LaFleur get canned over Zach at this point.

He is streaky. Like a wrestler, I want to see Zach slapping himself in the face before he throws a pass. Needs to pump himself up lol.

[Maxman]

23 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Omg running on 2-1 how unusual ?????

It is happening 14 - 17 times a week though. The Jets first down offense is a machine.

Zach drop back completes a pass for 9 years.

Then LaFleur runs on 2nd and 1 and 3rd and 1. They got stopped and punt.

THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM.

Why are they only calling the good plays on 1st down? All those 9 yard gains on first down, even though I can't remember any of them LOL!!!!!

[SuicidalSince98]

13 minutes ago, Maxman said:

It has happened every week this year? 

• The Jets got 9 yards on 1st down.
• The Jets ran on 2nd down and didn't get the first down.

This is a big trend that I am missing. I don't remember that many 9 year first down plays.

I assume they didn't get it on 3rd and short either, thus your outrage.

Not sure if you saw my other post. I am trying to offer you a way out. Do you want the other user name back? We have to wind this one down, it isn't working.

It happens every single week, 2nd and 1-3 yard run. Like 90% of the time we are in that position we run 

[Scotty Wooty Doo Doo]

To add  , how many running plays out of the shotgun have you seen ?

[HighPitch]

when we had our win streak there were NO MLF critics, just praise

[SR24]

He calls the same five running plays over and over again. It’s a run to the left for a gain of nothing or it’s a shotgun run up the middle for a gain of nothing. MLF has been so overrated by this fanbase it’s crazy he’s a train wreck 

[GreenFish]

The OL, the coaching, the WRs all look worse when Zach is in there. QB is the main problem. Hard to isolate the OC and not talk about White vs Zach when the QB drives the offense.

Main Problem: QB

Secondary Problems: OL

I don't know how we fix the QB situation next year though. 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

12 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

This has to be a candidate for most idiotic thread

Mike LaFleur’s biggest mistake was watching pre-draft tape on Zach Wilson and endorsing him as a #2 overall pick 

endorsing him? youre understating this. MLF was the guy who pressed for ZW, and he pressed hard for him. This has been, and continues to be THE biggest reason we continue to fail miserably at the QB position, we have nobody in the building who has a clue of what they are doing with the QB position. Identifying them, selecting them, developing them, or calling plays for what works for them. Until the Jets bring in someone who knows what the hell they are doing with QB's, we will continue to have bad QB play, its really not rocket science

[JustInFudge]

No, like, it's definitely the QB.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

12 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Thats not to say OCs never deserve any blame whatsoever.  But the BIGGER reason we just put up only 17 points of offense against a bottom 3 pass D is poor QB play. 

The next smart thing you say, may be your first. This offense with the immortal MW put up 22 points against the Vikings, who in the last 6 weeks, that 22 points was the lowest point total the Vikings gave up including giving up 33 this week to the awful colts. MLF stinks. His offense stinks, his o-line schemes stink, pretty much everything about him stinks. That doesnt make ZW any better at all, but bringing in Minshaw or whatever other JAG you want to bring in won't fix the fact that MLF stinks

[freestater]

6 minutes ago, JiFields said:

No, like, it's definitely the QB.

And the o-line. 

[Squirt]

Zack should play the rest of the season we have to see if he gets better in the next 3 games. Zach didn't loose the game yesterday even with his mistakes. Sala let 30 seconds run off the clock while the whole stadium was yelling TIME OUT! I was there and one of the ones yelling time out. With a young QB you need to call a time out to regroup. Also you sports writers in NY are blaming everything on Zack. The OL was terrible yesterday!!! I don't know if Zach is the answer but between NY sportswriters, Jets Fans, and Jet's players wearing Mike Fn White shirts going to games is not good for a young QB's development. Sala should have called out the players wearing those shirts by fining them for not being team players!! Those player's don't catch every ball thrown to them or always run the proper route. People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[maury77]

What system is going to work when the QB typically only flashes on roll out scramble plays and can’t complete passes under pressure?

[Flea Flicking Frank]

so whats the plan here to get a good QB? I'd love to hear it. We obviously can't identify a good one and develop one in the draft. This offense wasnt very good outside of the Bears game with Mike White, who I think is a mid level starting QB. ZW is obviously not the answer. What makes anyone think this offense is going to be any better with Minshaw, Garrapolo, Carr than it is with MW? So whats the plan guys to fix this problem, would love to hear it.

[Greensleeves]

12 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Not a thread to argue Zach was White. Any objective analysis would suggest that both are flawed enough that neither might be the long term solution.

I believe that the vast vast vast majority of the problem with this team is Mike LaFleur.

I would put forth that he is one of the worst OCs the Jets have ever had. And we have had so many complete stinkers as OC.

Although there are many issues (being maybe the worst play caller in the NFL is ignored here) the biggest one is:

Mike LaFleur wants to run his system PERIOD.

He believes that his system is essentially perfect and any breakdown in that system is not a function of a system fit, but a lack of execution. And that is completely and totally wrong.

Zach Wilson coming out of college was known to struggle/be weaker with certain types of plays in college. What were those? Dump off passes,. especially to the right and crossing patterns in the middle of the field and somewhat with quick slants.

Where Wilson was elite was in exploiting the width of the field with outs, come backs stick routs and sideline routes being exceptionally good at back shoulder throws and especially at exploiting the deep thirds of the field. He was excellent at throwing off of RPO motion and especially rolling both right and left and throwing down the field vertically. 

Because of his strengths, Wilson excelled in spread -wide formations and open splits and had uncanny ability to exploit defenses outside the numbers on the FAR hash.  Because of all the pressure he put on the edges he was exceptional at throwing up the seam and also middle screens.

So what does this loser of an OC do? Try to force Zach into his "system"

And his system is literally the worst possible fit for him as a QB.

In LaFleur's own words his version of the "Shanahan" offense is offense in a phone booth Literally a system designed to attack the fugging MIDDLE of the field between the numbers with short slants and crossing routes, timing routes, a running game focused between the tackles and to attack the edge with swing passes and screens and try to get YAC. Literally everything it tries to do is the exact opposite of what the guy is good at. And the plays that LaFleur runs are not quick developing plays and require multiple reads and very quick decisions and well our OL sucks.

And we saw it today. Zach was able to make quite a few plays outside the pocket and when attacking the deep third, but does LaFleur go with it? Not a chance. He stubbornly goes back to his "system" and Zach loses his mind and really struggles the third quarter. Then when it matters in the 4th Zach is allowed to do what he is decent at and makes some plays.

So in the end it was a mediocre outing. But you are literally asking the guy to do what he is literally not good at. Over and over and over.

Take Mac Jones. He sucks. He is not as good of a QB as Zach but he can do some things reasonably well. He can throw screens and pick plays and plays in the middle of the field, screens and hand off the ball a lot. So the NE offense is entirely that.

Make no mistake Zach would be a MUCH better QB with competent coaching. He would be successful in San Diego's system and Bruce Arians and Sean Payton would LOVE him.

But LaFleur is too stubborn to adjust for Zach. Zach struggles he gets emotional and amped up and loses his mind. 

I am not sure Zach can ever be successful under this guy. White is not very good btw, but he is better at the core LaFleur principles so the offense is slightly more effective, but White has no off schedule ability and to be honest is not very clutch.

Then add in the fact that LaFleur is a HORRIBLE play caller and clearly has no idea how to script opening drives and it is just a mess

LaFleur is the brother of his best friend so he will never do anything, but LaFleur should be gone. BTW under Shanahan Zach would be successful because he adapts for the strengths and weaknesses of his players something LaFleur abjectly refuses to do.

How anyone can dislike your post proves some Jets fans are the worst. This is a logical explanation that contains plain facts and is a great post. I would add that Lafleur perhaps knows no other way and has no experience or idea on how to develop a young QB. He is learning every bit as much as Zach is on the job and it shows.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

3 minutes ago, Greensleeves said:

How anyone can dislike your post proves some Jets fans are the worst. This is a logical explanation that contains plain facts and is a great post. I would add that Lafleur perhaps knows no other way and has no experience or idea on how to develop a young QB. He is learning every bit as much as Zach is on the job and it shows.

Because many hated ZW before he was even drafted, and hate him even more now. And because of this, anything other than blaming ZW for every problem we have is going to be an unpopular opinion.

But the post was spot on, as was yours.

The biggest problem with this team for a very long time has been, and continues to be, nobody in this building has a friggin clue of what they are doing with the QB position. Nobody in this building has been a part of identifying or building a succeful QB before. Its not impossible that someone who hasnt done it before, could acdtually do it, but its very rare. Its not a coincidence that guys like Andy Reid have really high success rates with their QB's. Its not luck

[xJayce]

I'm going to preface this by saying I don't care about the OC one way or another. He's a guy in a booth calling plays. You could replace him with a chicken, and it'd be fine with that if that chicken could call plays...

12 hours ago, johnnysd said:

He believes that his system is essentially perfect and any breakdown in that system is not a function of a system fit, but a lack of execution. And that is completely and totally wrong.

1 - I would certainly hope so... Why would anyone go into a game not thinking that they have built out anything less than the best game plan / system they can. "Hey Saleh, it's MFLF. Yeah, just wanted to let you know that my system is only 70% good, but honestly, that'll be good enough". What kind of OC would not be confident in his game plan?! Now, if you tell me "oh, he's not just confident, he's arrogant", I'm gonna call BS unless you actually have any form of evidence here.

2 - But there is a lack of execution. Big time. When your QB keeps missing open receivers, time and again, and comes in with sub 50% completion in the second half, doesn't matter how good of a play caller you are, it's gonna suck. Then, of course, you get the Berrios drops and the Conklin drops and the fumbles, and etc... Are saying fumbles, drops, and inaccurate QB throws to open receivers are on the OC?

Quote

Zach Wilson coming out of college was known to struggle/be weaker with certain types of plays in college. What were those? Dump off passes,. especially to the right and crossing patterns in the middle of the field and somewhat with quick slants.

Where Wilson was elite was in exploiting the width of the field with outs, come backs stick routs and sideline routes being exceptionally good at back shoulder throws and especially at exploiting the deep thirds of the field. He was excellent at throwing off of RPO motion and especially rolling both right and left and throwing down the field vertically. 

Because of his strengths, Wilson excelled in spread -wide formations and open splits and had uncanny ability to exploit defenses outside the numbers on the FAR hash.  Because of all the pressure he put on the edges he was exceptional at throwing up the seam and also middle screens.

So what does this loser of an OC do? Try to force Zach into his "system"

And his system is literally the worst possible fit for him as a QB.

Wait, our QB can't hit slants, crossers, OR dumpoffs (by extension, does that also include screens?)? That's like 80% of a standard playbook right there, and is bread and butter for bottom tier QBs in this league. If your QB can't hit an open guy because 'that's not his strength' or 'he's throwing in the middle of the field as opposed to the sideline', doesn't really matter who the OC is... Why? Because your opponent will watch film, see where most of the passes are completed, and simply flood the field with DBs at those points. May work for a game or two, but defenses are too good to limit your playbook that much. And from there... We're back to throwing the middle crosser that is always open, but where our QB can't hit a barn from 10 feet away. To me, there's an expectation that the QB can make basic throws, and his strengths help him set himself apart. From what you're saying, Zach cannot make basic throws, and requires a special playback to barely be competent.

Quote

In LaFleur's own words his version of the "Shanahan" offense is offense in a phone booth Literally a system designed to attack the fugging MIDDLE of the field between the numbers with short slants and crossing routes, timing routes, a running game focused between the tackles and to attack the edge with swing passes and screens and try to get YAC. Literally everything it tries to do is the exact opposite of what the guy is good at. And the plays that LaFleur runs are not quick developing plays and require multiple reads and very quick decisions and well our OL sucks.

To be fair, this is where our pass catchers excel. GW has been a monster with YAC, Conklin (when can catch the damn ball) runs so angry, he goes through guys. Breece has speed to simply break away on a short slant / crosser. The entirety of the team is set up to excel here... Other than the QB. Why do you think the receivers get so damn frustrated when the QB keeps missing them on basic throws. They know once they get the ball, they can do damage.

Quote

And we saw it today. Zach was able to make quite a few plays outside the pocket and when attacking the deep third, but does LaFleur go with it? Not a chance. He stubbornly goes back to his "system" and Zach loses his mind and really struggles the third quarter. Then when it matters in the 4th Zach is allowed to do what he is decent at and makes some plays.

So in the end it was a mediocre outing. But you are literally asking the guy to do what he is literally not good at. Over and over and over.

If this is simply "Zach can only throw if he rolls out", Ds will key on that and simply run a delayed rush towards an unprotected QB. We've seen it in the past, and this is where Zach would often back peddle and lose 15 yards. And, the bootleg / rollout often works better when there is a run game, which, with the current oline and RBs, appears to really be hit or miss unfortunately.

Quote

Take Mac Jones. He sucks. He is not as good of a QB as Zach but he can do some things reasonably well. He can throw screens and pick plays and plays in the middle of the field, screens and hand off the ball a lot. So the NE offense is entirely that.

What Mac Jones does is exactly what this often needs unfortunately. A limited QB with a high level of accuracy. I'm not sure how you go about saying Zach is better than him (or rather, he's not as good as Zach). They have very different skill sets. Zach is boom or best, the roller coaster, and Mac is more about boring football with rhythym, a more mobile White? I'm pretty sure that if we had White or Jones at QB all year, we're significantly better than a 500 team.
 

Quote

Make no mistake Zach would be a MUCH better QB with competent coaching. He would be successful in San Diego's system and Bruce Arians and Sean Payton would LOVE him.

But LaFleur is too stubborn to adjust for Zach. Zach struggles he gets emotional and amped up and loses his mind. 

I am not sure Zach can ever be successful under this guy.

I agree here, I think OCs and QBs have preferences and styles, and some mesh better than others. But at the very least, I'd expect the QB to hit open guys. White, on the other hand, the anti-Zach in most regards, does fit this offense much better.

Quote

White is not very good btw, but he is better at the core LaFleur principles so the offense is slightly more effective, but White has no off schedule ability and to be honest is not very clutch.

How are we qualifying White as not very good? What are we looking at to make that determination? At a minimum, he's a very good back-up. With 2 1/2 games under his belt, he's made a lot of very good throws, and been able to find the open man time and again. The team needs to work on finish though, and can't always settle for field goals. The Buffalo game was a bit tougher, but those were some terrible conditions. 

When you're a competent pocket passer, you don't need much of the off schedule ability because you're basically always playing on schedule.

As for clutch, hard to say. He was a Berrios drop away from winning against the Vikes, and was completely broken towards the end of the Buffalo game (lack of escapability will get you injured in this league unless you're made of iron; I don't think he is).

[xJayce]

12 hours ago, carlito1171 said:

Been saying this...

He hasn't even been that great with MW under center either....Breece Hall's play masked a ton of the issues with playcalling

Saleh made a huge mistake hiring such an inexperienced staff....Knapp's tragedy aside..

Wait... So having elite talent 'masks' issues, as opposed to an offense finding it's stride with an upcoming elite player, and when said player goes down to injury, along with half the oline, and the offense struggles without their best?

Sure...

[xJayce]

12 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

QBs get paid a lot more money than OCs for a reason.

Thats not to say OCs never deserve any blame whatsoever.  But the BIGGER reason we just put up only 17 points of offense against a bottom 3 pass D is poor QB play.

”Calling the good plays” will never get Zach Wilson to do simple things like completing a simple screen pass.  That’s up to him and he hasn’t proven he can do it over 2 seasons.  

I love how the OP also mentions 'it's not execution, it's the system failing' when a QB continuously misses open guys.

I mean, is the point of the system not to scheme guys open?? I don't understand... 

[xJayce]

12 hours ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

Your criticisms of Mike LaFluer get completely discredited by your comments on Zach.  What he did in college has ZERO to do with anything he does in the NFL.  Zero.

Zach would not be successful in San Diego's system.  Bruce Arians and Sean Payton would not love him.  You have no way of proving otherwise.  Zach would not be successful anywhere because he does not succeed in any area except for off schedule plays a few times a game.  You cannot sustain an offense that way.

Mike LaFluer is not a good OC imo, but we have seen the offense be manageable: when Zach is not the QB.

That's what's funny here... Both of these could be true.

• MLF may not be great at calling plays
• Zach may be struggling at QB

In order to do so though, some things we'd want to consider:

• We'd need to define what a great play call is though, as I'm seeing guys open all over the field, which, at least to me, would imply that the scheme is getting guys open.
• Are QBs expected to make basic throws, regardless of whether they are in the pocket or rolling out? Like, you know, a screen pass, or a crosser to an open receiver.

[xJayce]

9 hours ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

I happens every week. 2nd and short run, football 101 says to take a shot in that situation 

I can't remember too many 2nd and short... 

What kills me with MLF playcall is the passing on 3rd and short. I don't remember how many times I've seen it (implying quite a few)... And we usually miss. A short pass that Zach throws 3 feet behind the receiver on a short route... 

But them, I'm not sure we'd get it if we ran... /shrug.

[xJayce]

9 hours ago, Maxman said:

He is streaky. Like a wrestler, I want to see Zach slapping himself in the face before he throws a pass. Needs to pump himself up lol.

Maybe he should just ask one of the Oline to do it for him... If that doesn't get you going, nothing will...

[xJayce]

43 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

The next smart thing you say, may be your first. This offense with the immortal MW put up 22 points against the Vikings, who in the last 6 weeks, that 22 points was the lowest point total the Vikings gave up including giving up 33 this week to the awful colts. MLF stinks. His offense stinks, his o-line schemes stink, pretty much everything about him stinks. That doesnt make ZW any better at all, but bringing in Minshaw or whatever other JAG you want to bring in won't fix the fact that MLF stinks

Overall, the offense performed really well in the Vikes games but died in the red zone for some reason. That is a MUCH better problem to have than generally being unable to move the ball other than jump balls. 

Don't get me wrong, last game was Zach's best stat line, but the offense wasn't really moving other than those prayer balls that uncharacteristically went our way.

And again, if you're saying: "Oh, MLF sucks, we only scored 22 against the vikes", you're forgetting that execution was at play. We dropped a TD pass in the end zone. The oline couldn't punch it in from the 1. Miscommunication between White and GW on a route in the end zone. 

You can say what you want about the play calling, the team did not perform in the end zone for some reason. And addressing that is a significantly better issue than "Gee, what play can I draw up where my QB won't throw it 5 yards behind an open receiver".

[CanadienJetsFan]

13 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Not a thread to argue Zach was White. Any objective analysis would suggest that both are flawed enough that neither might be the long term solution.

I believe that the vast vast vast majority of the problem with this team is Mike LaFleur.

I would put forth that he is one of the worst OCs the Jets have ever had. And we have had so many complete stinkers as OC.

Although there are many issues (being maybe the worst play caller in the NFL is ignored here) the biggest one is:

Mike LaFleur wants to run his system PERIOD.

He believes that his system is essentially perfect and any breakdown in that system is not a function of a system fit, but a lack of execution. And that is completely and totally wrong.

Zach Wilson coming out of college was known to struggle/be weaker with certain types of plays in college. What were those? Dump off passes,. especially to the right and crossing patterns in the middle of the field and somewhat with quick slants.

Where Wilson was elite was in exploiting the width of the field with outs, come backs stick routs and sideline routes being exceptionally good at back shoulder throws and especially at exploiting the deep thirds of the field. He was excellent at throwing off of RPO motion and especially rolling both right and left and throwing down the field vertically. 

Because of his strengths, Wilson excelled in spread -wide formations and open splits and had uncanny ability to exploit defenses outside the numbers on the FAR hash.  Because of all the pressure he put on the edges he was exceptional at throwing up the seam and also middle screens.

So what does this loser of an OC do? Try to force Zach into his "system"

And his system is literally the worst possible fit for him as a QB.

In LaFleur's own words his version of the "Shanahan" offense is offense in a phone booth Literally a system designed to attack the fugging MIDDLE of the field between the numbers with short slants and crossing routes, timing routes, a running game focused between the tackles and to attack the edge with swing passes and screens and try to get YAC. Literally everything it tries to do is the exact opposite of what the guy is good at. And the plays that LaFleur runs are not quick developing plays and require multiple reads and very quick decisions and well our OL sucks.

And we saw it today. Zach was able to make quite a few plays outside the pocket and when attacking the deep third, but does LaFleur go with it? Not a chance. He stubbornly goes back to his "system" and Zach loses his mind and really struggles the third quarter. Then when it matters in the 4th Zach is allowed to do what he is decent at and makes some plays.

So in the end it was a mediocre outing. But you are literally asking the guy to do what he is literally not good at. Over and over and over.

Take Mac Jones. He sucks. He is not as good of a QB as Zach but he can do some things reasonably well. He can throw screens and pick plays and plays in the middle of the field, screens and hand off the ball a lot. So the NE offense is entirely that.

Make no mistake Zach would be a MUCH better QB with competent coaching. He would be successful in San Diego's system and Bruce Arians and Sean Payton would LOVE him.

But LaFleur is too stubborn to adjust for Zach. Zach struggles he gets emotional and amped up and loses his mind. 

I am not sure Zach can ever be successful under this guy. White is not very good btw, but he is better at the core LaFleur principles so the offense is slightly more effective, but White has no off schedule ability and to be honest is not very clutch.

Then add in the fact that LaFleur is a HORRIBLE play caller and clearly has no idea how to script opening drives and it is just a mess

LaFleur is the brother of his best friend so he will never do anything, but LaFleur should be gone. BTW under Shanahan Zach would be successful because he adapts for the strengths and weaknesses of his players something LaFleur abjectly refuses to do.

Good post.

Good coaches will adapt/amend/modify their schemes based on their QB's strengths. Heck just look at what's been happening in Chicago and Philly. They have QBs with good legs, so they develop schemes for a QB good legs. I'm not saying that Zach's a good runner like those guys, but i'm just giving an example of what good coaches end up doing.

Keep in mind that Saleh, and Lafleur are still a bit wet behind the ears, experience-wise. They still struggle with in game adjustments so asking to " think outside the box" and change things mid- season  may be too much to ask from them.

I agree,. you put Zach in the hands of an experienced coach like Arians, Payton or Reid, i think they'd do a better job with Zach. It's obvious that maybe just maybe he never should have been ordained as the starter so early in his career. Perhaps more experience coaches would have kept him on the sidelines, but that's behind us at this point.

So we'll see.

The big question is whether management is still committed to developing Zach next year. 

[xJayce]

41 minutes ago, Squirt said:

Zack should play the rest of the season we have to see if he gets better in the next 3 games. Zach didn't loose the game yesterday even with his mistakes. Sala let 30 seconds run off the clock while the whole stadium was yelling TIME OUT! I was there and one of the ones yelling time out. With a young QB you need to call a time out to regroup. Also you sports writers in NY are blaming everything on Zack. The OL was terrible yesterday!!! I don't know if Zach is the answer but between NY sportswriters, Jets Fans, and Jet's players wearing Mike Fn White shirts going to games is not good for a young QB's development. Sala should have called out the players wearing those shirts by fining them for not being team players!! Those player's don't catch every ball thrown to them or always run the proper route. People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

here are the conversation I've generally been seeing:

"This is not Zach's fault"

"Well, he struggled. Some of it his fault. Can't have sub 50% completion in the second half of a tight game and expect to win."

"Stop saying it's all Zach's fault!!"

"Euh... Not what I said"

"The D sucked!! It gave up a TD at the end of the game"

"... What? They gave up 13 points against a high powered Offense. The timing was unfortunate, but if we had more consistent offense, this would not be an issue. Also, we then missed an open receiver running behind the secondary that could have won the game anyways."

"It's Saleh's fault for not calling a time out!!!"

"... Yeah, he screwed that up. But again, we left plays on the field all day"

"JETS FANS ARE THE WORST!! SPORTS WRITERS ARE THE WORST"

"... ??"

[Squirt]

Mike White is not a franchise QB. He has good stats but how many games has he won? Also how many TD's and points? Plus he is injury prone and won't last half a season. The most important stats for a QB is wins and points on the board. MW is a career back up.

[Darnold's Forehead]

37 minutes ago, xJayce said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I don't care about the OC one way or another. He's a guy in a booth calling plays. You could replace him with a chicken, and it'd be fine with that if that chicken could call plays...

1 - I would certainly hope so... Why would anyone go into a game not thinking that they have built out anything less than the best game plan / system they can. "Hey Saleh, it's MFLF. Yeah, just wanted to let you know that my system is only 70% good, but honestly, that'll be good enough". What kind of OC would not be confident in his game plan?! Now, if you tell me "oh, he's not just confident, he's arrogant", I'm gonna call BS unless you actually have any form of evidence here.

2 - But there is a lack of execution. Big time. When your QB keeps missing open receivers, time and again, and comes in with sub 50% completion in the second half, doesn't matter how good of a play caller you are, it's gonna suck. Then, of course, you get the Berrios drops and the Conklin drops and the fumbles, and etc... Are saying fumbles, drops, and inaccurate QB throws to open receivers are on the OC?

Wait, our QB can't hit slants, crossers, OR dumpoffs (by extension, does that also include screens?)? That's like 80% of a standard playbook right there, and is bread and butter for bottom tier QBs in this league. If your QB can't hit an open guy because 'that's not his strength' or 'he's throwing in the middle of the field as opposed to the sideline', doesn't really matter who the OC is... Why? Because your opponent will watch film, see where most of the passes are completed, and simply flood the field with DBs at those points. May work for a game or two, but defenses are too good to limit your playbook that much. And from there... We're back to throwing the middle crosser that is always open, but where our QB can't hit a barn from 10 feet away. To me, there's an expectation that the QB can make basic throws, and his strengths help him set himself apart. From what you're saying, Zach cannot make basic throws, and requires a special playback to barely be competent.

To be fair, this is where our pass catchers excel. GW has been a monster with YAC, Conklin (when can catch the damn ball) runs so angry, he goes through guys. Breece has speed to simply break away on a short slant / crosser. The entirety of the team is set up to excel here... Other than the QB. Why do you think the receivers get so damn frustrated when the QB keeps missing them on basic throws. They know once they get the ball, they can do damage.

If this is simply "Zach can only throw if he rolls out", Ds will key on that and simply run a delayed rush towards an unprotected QB. We've seen it in the past, and this is where Zach would often back peddle and lose 15 yards. And, the bootleg / rollout often works better when there is a run game, which, with the current oline and RBs, appears to really be hit or miss unfortunately.

What Mac Jones does is exactly what this often needs unfortunately. A limited QB with a high level of accuracy. I'm not sure how you go about saying Zach is better than him (or rather, he's not as good as Zach). They have very different skill sets. Zach is boom or best, the roller coaster, and Mac is more about boring football with rhythym, a more mobile White? I'm pretty sure that if we had White or Jones at QB all year, we're significantly better than a 500 team.
 

I agree here, I think OCs and QBs have preferences and styles, and some mesh better than others. But at the very least, I'd expect the QB to hit open guys. White, on the other hand, the anti-Zach in most regards, does fit this offense much better.

How are we qualifying White as not very good? What are we looking at to make that determination? At a minimum, he's a very good back-up. With 2 1/2 games under his belt, he's made a lot of very good throws, and been able to find the open man time and again. The team needs to work on finish though, and can't always settle for field goals. The Buffalo game was a bit tougher, but those were some terrible conditions. 

When you're a competent pocket passer, you don't need much of the off schedule ability because you're basically always playing on schedule.

As for clutch, hard to say. He was a Berrios drop away from winning against the Vikes, and was completely broken towards the end of the Buffalo game (lack of escapability will get you injured in this league unless you're made of iron; I don't think he is).

/thread