QB is NOT the biggest problem with this team

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Well he still hasn't played 1.5 seasons of football and has only really had one training camp. People also need to realize that had there been a "competition" Zach would have easily won over White. White apparently improved over the season playing scout team, but obviously Zach has no time to improve and needs to be elite right this second.

Zach showed some progress Sunday. People will ignore that too.

1) In an honest competition, no he would not have.

2) Name one person here who has ever demanded "elite" play out of Wilson in his first 2 years.  One.  

3) No, he did not show progress.  This game didn't move the needle in any meaningful way.

[Bleedin Green]

5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@T0mShane already explained this one.  You can only run a few rollouts a game.  Otherwise you're restricting throws to only 1/3 of the field too often.  And you also start to become far too predictable to boot.  It's not like Wilson is any good at selling play action so he isn't going to "trick" the D very often.

QB's have to be able to make throws using at least most of the field with some consistency in order to succeed.  Period.  

Plus, if it becomes predictable, even the most incompetent of opposing Ds will quickly learn to just send outside blitzers who would get to tee off on him completely unblocked.

While I can actually understand perhaps using rollouts a bit more if they feel it better plays to Wilson's strengths, the idea of building an entire offense around it is definitely not at all viable.

[BigRy56]

I can’t wait to watch everybody argue all off-season about Zach Wilson again!

[Squirt]

Mike White is not a franchise QB. He has good stats but how many games has he won? Also how many TD's and points? Plus he is injury prone and won't last half a season. The most important stats for a QB is wins and points on the board. MW is a career back up.

This is such a foolish take it is mind boggling, so I will assume you are a troll and take the bait regardless.  He's 2-4 as a starter, 1-2 on a horrendous team last year.  Zach is 8-13.  Mike White has a higher win % than Zach, and most of Zach's wins come this year.  He's injury prone?  Maybe, but it's a lazy take.  Got repeatedly hit to the ribs against Buffalo.  Zach has missed time each year as well.  The last time we had a QB start all 16 games for us was 2015, just to put your expectations into perspective.

Wins are not a QB's stats.  End.  If you would like to refute that, go ahead and try.  Handing off to Breece Hall while throwing for 150 yards and watching your defense cripple the opposing back-up QB is not a positive reflection of the QB in any means.  Also Zach has averaged 19.3 points of offense this year.  Mike White has averaged 21. 

Zach is 1-3 his last 4 games.  Where are the wins?

 

My opinion is Mike White is not a Franchise QB. Mike White has been in the NFL for 4 years and was released before he landed with the Jets. I think he is a good person and team mate but he is no Curt Warner. Zach is in his 2nd year. You guys want to throw him under the bus because the Jets are in the hunt for a playoff spot. Before the season everyone said if the Jets could get 6 or 7 wins the season is a success. Tell me if the Jets get into the playoffs what do think will be the outcome? I never said Zack was our future. I said he needs to play to see what he is and if he can be our Franchise QB. You can't give up on a QB in one or two years, because you smell playoffs this year. There is no SB for this Jets team this year if the do make the playoffs. White will not be back this year with two or three broken ribs. There will be a QB competition next year may-be with a veteran QB in the mix.

[Maynard13]

On 12/18/2022 at 9:11 PM, carlito1171 said:

Example.....

Look at Daniel Jones....you think he magically became a better QB, or has Daboll done an excellent job calling to his strengths and giving him easier reads? 

And he still sucks ??‍♂️

[Fantasy Island]

On 12/18/2022 at 9:27 PM, johnnysd said:

He actually does have ADHD and took Aderall in college for it. Not sure if he takes it in the NFL. They can allow it under an exemption but rarely do.

It's the hot MILFs in the stands that distract him.  

Got to get the team chef to put;

in Zach's entre' before the game.

[Fantasy Island]

8 hours ago, Squirt said:

Mike White is not a franchise QB. He has good stats but how many games has he won? Also how many TD's and points? Plus he is injury prone and won't last half a season. The most important stats for a QB is wins and points on the board. MW is a career back up.

This is such a foolish take it is mind boggling, so I will assume you are a troll and take the bait regardless.  He's 2-4 as a starter, 1-2 on a horrendous team last year.  Zach is 8-13.  Mike White has a higher win % than Zach, and most of Zach's wins come this year.  He's injury prone?  Maybe, but it's a lazy take.  Got repeatedly hit to the ribs against Buffalo.  Zach has missed time each year as well.  The last time we had a QB start all 16 games for us was 2015, just to put your expectations into perspective.

Wins are not a QB's stats.  End.  If you would like to refute that, go ahead and try.  Handing off to Breece Hall while throwing for 150 yards and watching your defense cripple the opposing back-up QB is not a positive reflection of the QB in any means.  Also Zach has averaged 19.3 points of offense this year.  Mike White has averaged 21. 

Zach is 1-3 his last 4 games.  Where are the wins?

 

My opinion is Mike White is not a Franchise QB. Mike White has been in the NFL for 4 years and was released before he landed with the Jets. I think he is a good person and team mate but he is no Curt Warner. Zach is in his 2nd year. You guys want to throw him under the bus because the Jets are in the hunt for a playoff spot. Before the season everyone said if the Jets could get 6 or 7 wins the season is a success. Tell me if the Jets get into the playoffs what do think will be the outcome? I never said Zack was our future. I said he needs to play to see what he is and if he can be our Franchise QB. You can't give up on a QB in one or two years, because you smell playoffs this year. There is no SB for this Jets team this year if the do make the playoffs. White will not be back this year with two or three broken ribs. There will be a QB competition next year may-be with a veteran QB in the mix.

I'm 6 pints in, but did you just quote yourself?

[Irish Jet]

 

I have never seen a team where people come untouched through the middle so often. Horrendous from the coaching, the vets on the line and the QB. 

[gdfodder]

It is happening 14 - 17 times a week though. The Jets first down offense is a machine.
Zach drop back completes a pass for 9 years.
Then LaFleur runs on 2nd and 1 and 3rd and 1. They got stopped and punt.
THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM.
Why are they only calling the good plays on 1st down? All those 9 yard gains on first down, even though I can't remember any of them LOL!!!!!

Damn..has it been 9 years already? Time flies.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[#27TheDominator]

Strongly disagree.

[rangerous]

i'm no fan of lefleur (mainly cause i'm from missouri) but the plays he's running are sound.  look at the tape and there are always players free on passing routes and even the oline pass blocking provides enough time to get the ball off.  where lafleur fails is in what plays he calls and when.  that whole goal line playing against minny is proof.  they were on the one with 3 downs to go.  pass the ball?  how about running it in or some good play action.  and even there it almost worked with the pass to berrios.  the jets have been horrible in the red zone over the past few games.  some of this is the run game stalling so then it's time to try something else.  try another pass option play to garrett wilson.  screens.  double te's.

[derp]

I think a couple ideas make this “do what made Wilson successful in college” line of thinking less realistic.

Wilson was successful attacking outside the numbers his junior year in college. That year he sat behind an elite offensive line, took a long time to throw, waited for things to come open, and his receivers were better than the DB’s because the schedule was so soft.

Really none of that translates. His time to throw was insane, NFL QB’s need to anticipate and get the ball out (he does this well against zone but not man), and the skill sets on the outside are much more comparable. I also think the Jets could use a traditional high end X and more importantly they really don’t play or acquire receivers who have skill sets that match playing on the perimeter as much as those tighter splits. Remember complaints about Moore running go patterns? Also turns out when Wilson’s pressured he reacts very poorly which is the most critical thing.

Plus, the down the field stuff is high variance and isn’t a way to sustain drives. And right now unfortunately for him the run game is basically shot so they need to be able to move the ball through the air.

I actually think in the games he was throwing 20-25 passes they probably had a spread that was more favorable for him because they didn’t need to move the sticks passing since Hall did that early in the year - but his inability to do short stuff consistently means drives get killed in annoying ways. That’s why it consistently looks like the ball moves better with White in there.

I do kind of get the idea that the development plan should have been deep shots and running the ball. I think under the best of circumstances - elite run game to lean on, elite defense, receivers who can play down the field effectively - Wilson function like a poor man’s Russell Wilson on his rookie deal. But right now the Jets don’t have the run game or receivers to make that work (they had the run game early in the year and were maybe on their way to making that sort of happen) and the issues against pressure are a big problem.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

A good competent OC will tailor his offense around the personnel while trying to slowly introduce his system. LaFleur runs his system as if all of the pieces are there, which clearly, they are not. 

LaFleur and Wilson have a lot in common. They both show flashes of what could be but cannot do it consistently.

[VJphillyfan]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:03 PM, BigRy56 said:

I can’t wait to watch everybody argue all off-season about Zach Wilson again!

The Zach cucks arguing that Wilson needs more time are sounding really pathetic at this point.  He’s the worst starting qb in the nfl by far at this point.  He makes Baker Mayfield look good in comparison 

[Smashmouth]

On 12/18/2022 at 8:23 PM, Xtina said:

There has to be a reason why Zach starts out pretty well then sort of implodes and this is the first reasonable explanation I’ve seen. Other than ADD which is a lazy knee jerk response 

Zach starts off pretty well ? There have been entire first halves where Zach Wilson didn't even break 50 yards or make it to the 50 yard line.

he is the reason this team is not in sync on offense. He had plenty of chances to grasp this offense and he just can't.

So I am going to turn this into a Mike White thing and the reason why is the guy knows the offense and can move the team. He has had some critical drops and fumbles ruin drives with the game on the line and you can't Blame LaFleur for player mistakes. I do however question some of his goal line calls but we as fans have no idea if the team is executing or not at the goal line only the team has access to plays, routes, protections and so on . You either trust the coaching staff to evaluate or you don't. 

Keeping all that in Mind it was dreadfully dumb to open the season with Flacco and we have to give Mike White the chance to develop with these players. After all he stepped in with little practice and moved this team with ease so if he can do that in six games he deserves the shot to continue on and if we see him continue to move the ball with ease then we can start to question WTF is going on in the red zone and in that case the OL has played bad, the receivers have played bad and IMHO the QB has done his job but been let down by his team not performing.

Personally I don't think this is on Lafleur but we shall see how all of this is handled when the season ends and we go into the FA period and the NFL draft

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

Zach starts off pretty well ? There have been entire first halves where Zach Wilson didn't even break 50 yards or make it to the 50 yard line.

he is the reason this team is not in sync on offense. He had plenty of chances to grasp this offense and he just can't.

So I am going to turn this into a Mike White thing and the reason why is the guy knows the offense and can move the team. He has had some critical drops and fumbles ruin drives with the game on the line and you can't Blame LaFleur for player mistakes. I do however question some of his goal line calls but we as fans have no idea if the team is executing or not at the goal line only the team has access to plays, routes, protections and so on . You either trust the coaching staff to evaluate or you don't. 

Keeping all that in Mind it was dreadfully dumb to open the season with Flacco and we have to give Mike White the chance to develop with these players. After all he stepped in with little practice and moved this team with ease so if he can do that in six games he deserves the shot to continue on and if we see him continue to move the ball with ease then we can start to question WTF is going on in the red zone and in that case the OL has played bad, the receivers have played bad and IMHO the QB has done his job but been let down by his team not performing.

Personally I don't think this is on Lafleur but we shall see how all of this is handled when the season ends and we go into the FA period and the NFL draft

To be fair, the jets offense sucked in the first halves of the minny and buffalo games too.  There’s a real problem with the OC and starting slow.

[Smashmouth]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

To be fair, the jets offense sucked in the first halves of the minny and buffalo games too.  There’s a real problem with the OC and starting slow.

But that's the question how do you know if its the OC ? To me it leans more towards the players if there is a trend not the OC who has the ability to change things up and he has . Are these players taking too long to get warmed up or get the feel of the game ? Im not sure this is about 1 guy at all

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

But that's the question how do you know if its the OC ? To me it leans more towards the players if there is a trend not the OC who has the ability to change things up and he has . Are these players taking too long to get warmed up or get the feel of the game ? Im not sure this is about 1 guy at all

We’re not saying anything new here, but there’s problems all around.  There is, unfortunately, definitely some problems with the playcalling in the first quarter in particular.  The run on first down tendency is hampering the offense, putting the qbs in 2nd and long most of the time.  They rarely take big shots early in the game.  If you’re going to play wilson, stretch the freakin defense early, give them something to worry about.  If davis is playing, send him and wilson long.  Try a flea flicker.  My goal as the OC would be to shock the d and score a td on the first drive.  Not only would that potentially give them a lead, but it would instill much needed confidence in the qb and the offense.   With the playoffs hanging in the balance, there’s no reason not to go for it.  

[Copernicus]

Mike LaFluer hasnt completed his 2nd season as OC. He is growing together with this team including ups and downs. It seems like just about everything on offense is working except QB Zach Wilson. Wr are getting open, running game looked great with Breece and at mostly productive with Bam, OLine have had a ton of injuries and should be much worse, we had legitimately TWO rookie of the year candidates on offense with Garrett and Breece, and Mike White excelled under Mike LaFluer. Can you really agrue that it is La Fluer's fault and should be fired because of a handful of plays that if executed (like they should have) would have been productive? 

[VJphillyfan]

1 hour ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

A good competent OC will tailor his offense around the personnel while trying to slowly introduce his system. LaFleur runs his system as if all of the pieces are there, which clearly, they are not. 

LaFleur and Wilson have a lot in common. They both show flashes of what could be but cannot do it consistently.

So it’s the OC’s fault Wilson can’t throw a 2 yd pass to the rb?

[Copernicus]

22 minutes ago, VJphillyfan said:

So it’s the OC’s fault Wilson can’t throw a 2 yd pass to the rb?

I am a full Jets supporter. I support Zach Wilson. I like most Jets fans want him to succeed. But right now he is not. He looks so uncomfortable as a pocket passer, something he needs to overcome to be successful. Definilty some of the blame is on Mike LaFluer, again "some."  Qb, obviously different than all the other positions with so much of the teams success connected to it.

The bigger picture is that everyone else, including the back up Qb is working. Wr are getting open, running game looked great with Breece and mostly productive with Bam, OLine have had a ton of injuries and should be much worse, we had legitimately TWO rookie of the year candidates on offense with Garrett and Breece, and Mike White excelled under Mike LaFluer. 

I cannot see the logic of getting rid of MLF

[Flea Flicking Frank]

On 12/20/2022 at 7:14 AM, Irish Jet said:

 

I have never seen a team where people come untouched through the middle so often. Horrendous from the coaching, the vets on the line and the QB. 

You see this sh*t multiple times every game. Its really disturbing. And I am not defending ZW in any way, but I can't imagine this happening multiple times per game is helpful for a young QB. It wasnt helpful for MW eitehr and put him out for a few weeks at all.

MLF is complete trash at this point in his career for multiple reasons, this one included. One great game agains the awful Bears does not make up for all the trash in his offense. 

Maybe he can develop, but bringing in a rookie OC and a rookie QB who needs to be developed and was not NFL ready is such typical NYJ BS

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 hour ago, Copernicus said:

Mike LaFluer hasnt completed his 2nd season as OC. He is growing together with this team including ups and downs. It seems like just about everything on offense is working except QB Zach Wilson. Wr are getting open, running game looked great with Breece and at mostly productive with Bam, OLine have had a ton of injuries and should be much worse, we had legitimately TWO rookie of the year candidates on offense with Garrett and Breece, and Mike White excelled under Mike LaFluer. Can you really agrue that it is La Fluer's fault and should be fired because of a handful of plays that if executed (like they should have) would have been productive? 

This is complete nonsense that everything is working except ZW. They put up 12 points against the Bills and had the lowest point total against the Vikings in over 7 weeks. And that was with a mad rush scramble at the end of the game. He was awful with Flacco, and had one good game against the Bears.

MLF sucks so far, and barring getting a big time QB, will likely continue to suck. So go out and find a big time QB, or find an OC who knows what the hell they are doing, specifically at the QB position, or this will continue.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

1 hour ago, VJphillyfan said:

So it’s the OC’s fault Wilson can’t throw a 2 yd pass to the rb?

That is not at all LaFleur's fault, but two things can be possible at the same time. Wilson also sucks.

[THE BARON]

On 12/18/2022 at 9:01 PM, johnnysd said:

Not a thread to argue Zach was White. Any objective analysis would suggest that both are flawed enough that neither might be the long term solution.

I believe that the vast vast vast majority of the problem with this team is Mike LaFleur.

I would put forth that he is one of the worst OCs the Jets have ever had. And we have had so many complete stinkers as OC.

Although there are many issues (being maybe the worst play caller in the NFL is ignored here) the biggest one is:

Mike LaFleur wants to run his system PERIOD.

He believes that his system is essentially perfect and any breakdown in that system is not a function of a system fit, but a lack of execution. And that is completely and totally wrong.

Zach Wilson coming out of college was known to struggle/be weaker with certain types of plays in college. What were those? Dump off passes,. especially to the right and crossing patterns in the middle of the field and somewhat with quick slants.

Where Wilson was elite was in exploiting the width of the field with outs, come backs stick routs and sideline routes being exceptionally good at back shoulder throws and especially at exploiting the deep thirds of the field. He was excellent at throwing off of RPO motion and especially rolling both right and left and throwing down the field vertically. 

Because of his strengths, Wilson excelled in spread -wide formations and open splits and had uncanny ability to exploit defenses outside the numbers on the FAR hash.  Because of all the pressure he put on the edges he was exceptional at throwing up the seam and also middle screens.

So what does this loser of an OC do? Try to force Zach into his "system"

And his system is literally the worst possible fit for him as a QB.

In LaFleur's own words his version of the "Shanahan" offense is offense in a phone booth Literally a system designed to attack the fugging MIDDLE of the field between the numbers with short slants and crossing routes, timing routes, a running game focused between the tackles and to attack the edge with swing passes and screens and try to get YAC. Literally everything it tries to do is the exact opposite of what the guy is good at. And the plays that LaFleur runs are not quick developing plays and require multiple reads and very quick decisions and well our OL sucks.

And we saw it today. Zach was able to make quite a few plays outside the pocket and when attacking the deep third, but does LaFleur go with it? Not a chance. He stubbornly goes back to his "system" and Zach loses his mind and really struggles the third quarter. Then when it matters in the 4th Zach is allowed to do what he is decent at and makes some plays.

So in the end it was a mediocre outing. But you are literally asking the guy to do what he is literally not good at. Over and over and over.

Take Mac Jones. He sucks. He is not as good of a QB as Zach but he can do some things reasonably well. He can throw screens and pick plays and plays in the middle of the field, screens and hand off the ball a lot. So the NE offense is entirely that.

Make no mistake Zach would be a MUCH better QB with competent coaching. He would be successful in San Diego's system and Bruce Arians and Sean Payton would LOVE him.

But LaFleur is too stubborn to adjust for Zach. Zach struggles he gets emotional and amped up and loses his mind. 

I am not sure Zach can ever be successful under this guy. White is not very good btw, but he is better at the core LaFleur principles so the offense is slightly more effective, but White has no off schedule ability and to be honest is not very clutch.

Then add in the fact that LaFleur is a HORRIBLE play caller and clearly has no idea how to script opening drives and it is just a mess

LaFleur is the brother of his best friend so he will never do anything, but LaFleur should be gone. BTW under Shanahan Zach would be successful because he adapts for the strengths and weaknesses of his players something LaFleur abjectly refuses to do.

Right.  Nothing wrong with a QB that misses on a screen pass. 

[sackdance]

13 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

That is not at all LaFleur's fault, but two things can be possible at the same time. Wilson also sucks.

And yet last game vs. the Lions, arguably with the biggest stakes of the season, it was 

1) Defense 

2) Special Teams

3) Clock management 

... who let the Jets down in the game's biggest moments. Not MLF, not Zach Wilson. 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

4 minutes ago, sackdance said:

And yet last game vs. the Lions, arguably with the biggest stakes of the season, it was 

1) Defense 

2) Special Teams

3) Clock management 

... who let the Jets down in the game's biggest moments. Not MLF, not Zach Wilson. 

 

 

 

 

 

Big picture, not one game. 

[Jetsplayer21]

LaFleur hasn’t been the best OC. But he is not the reason why we have the worst qb in league who can’t throw a simple dump pass. He is not the reason why Zach is so inaccurate, or doesn’t know how to read. LaFleur can’t be responsible for teaching zach the fundamentals. He needs a special tutor for that. 

[Fantasy Island]

47 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

This is complete nonsense that everything is working except ZW. They put up 12 points against the Bills and had the lowest point total against the Vikings in over 7 weeks. And that was with a mad rush scramble at the end of the game. He was awful with Flacco, and had one good game against the Bears.

MLF sucks so far, and barring getting a big time QB, will likely continue to suck. So go out and find a big time QB, or find an OC who knows what the hell they are doing, specifically at the QB position, or this will continue.

[Copernicus]

20 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

This is complete nonsense that everything is working except ZW. They put up 12 points against the Bills and had the lowest point total against the Vikings in over 7 weeks. And that was with a mad rush scramble at the end of the game. He was awful with Flacco, and had one good game against the Bears.

MLF sucks so far, and barring getting a big time QB, will likely continue to suck. So go out and find a big time QB, or find an OC who knows what the hell they are doing, specifically at the QB position, or this will continue.

 Berrios dropped a chest high one yard passs for a win in Minn after a first half where the refs (again) looked like they were on the take from Vegas and spotted them 20 points .  After Mike White breaks his ribs he still puts us in a position to win but his RB back fumbles when all the momentum was for the Jets. 

Fire MLF!!!

[rex-n-effect]

If ZW is the biggest problem on the offense, you have to explain away the offense struggling to score almost every game across three QBs in fourteen games. After AVT and Hall went down the offense fell off a cliff aside from the first Buffalo and Chicago games. If you look at the performance after Hall became unavailable to break out big runs and save the offense, the offense averages less than two TDs per game despite having both of the best QB performances of the season in that period. 

LaFluer has a lot of problems but it isn't just his playcalling. I'm not calling for his head but I also don't understand the accolades he gets as a rising star. The offense is in the bottom third of the league. That's not rising. If Saleh keeps him, which I assume he will, then Saleh needs to get LaFleur a lot of help.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

6 minutes ago, Fantasy Island said:

not sure what the hell this has to do with anything that I posted, but knock yourself out sport

[Flea Flicking Frank]

6 minutes ago, Copernicus said:

 Berrios dropped a chest high one yard passs for a win in Minn after a first half where the refs (again) spotted them 20 points and looked like they were on the take from Vegas.  After Mike White breaks his ribs he still puts us in a position to win but his RB back fumbles when all the momentum was for the Jets. 

Fire MLF!!!

everything you say can be true, and MLF still sucks, but carry on

[sackdance]

41 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Big picture, not one game. 

Agreed - but we drop a game to the Lions and the fanbase explodes on Zach Wilson, a QB who's already been demoted and was not even close to the reason why we lost. That's just stupid - we're still chasing a post-season berth.  

 

 

 

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

2 hours ago, sackdance said:

Agreed - but we drop a game to the Lions and the fanbase explodes on Zach Wilson, a QB who's already been demoted and was not even close to the reason why we lost. That's just stupid - we're still chasing a post-season berth.  

 

 

 

Not letting Zach off the hook. He threw an absolutely abysmal interception when the game was tied at 10. Zach doesn't get a pass here.