Tea Leaves: Mike LaFleur & Our Future QB

[DireJet]

What you will read below (maybe?!?!) is not coming from an emotional space. This is just what I think is going to happen based on what I've seen, read and heard. 

First, ZW will be on the roster in 2023 so let's just get that out of the way now. But will he be the starter? That's the big question. IMO, the only way he will be named the starter is if MLF is gone. I think their relationship has soured on the football field and ZW's frustrations are evident. MLF almost seemed to punish ZW after the INT yesterday and took away everything he was doing well in the first half. It wasn't until midway through the 4q — a time when the game opens up and the QB has more freedom to make plays — that ZW recovered in any sense of the word. MLF can't deal w/ZW's inconsistencies within his preferred system and doesn't seem willing to shake things up too much to cater to Zach's strengths while hiding his weaknesses. This kind of relationship between QB and OC is not sustainable, IMO. It's not good for the player or the team.

Now, contrast this with Mike White. MLF knows that MW is the perfect QB for HIS system. MW's attributes perfectly align w/what MLF is trying to do: unbelievably quick processing, tough as hell to stick in the pocket and make all the throws, great accuracy/touch on short/intermediate routes & gets rid of the ball quickly. It's almost an unfair fight between MW & ZW in this offense because MW is just perfectly built to execute it. He also has improved tenfold since last year while ZW is still experiencing the same issues that haunted him as a rookie. 

Check out the spray charts from the last 2 home games from each QB against similarly bad NFC north defenses: Detroit & Chicago.

They could not be more different and the MLF system clearly favors a guy w/MW's skill-set. It's not even close. Just look above. MW's spray chart is what MLF dreams of when prepping for a game. It's ******* Picasso to him. ZW's, meanwhile, is all over the place — yet still impressive in its own right — but totally against what MLF's trying to do w/his offense. ZW's performance is more reliant on his personal skills than MLF's offensive philosophy. It's like oil and water. 

The Jets have a big decision to make in the offseason and that will have a domino effect on the entire composition of the offense. Are we getting a new OC or keeping MLF? If they stick w/MLF, I think ZW will be the backup and MW will get paid and brought back as the starter. In that event, I think ZW's tenure in NY beyond 2023 is over. He will want to start over elsewhere. 

If the Jets get rid of MLF at the end of the season, I think that's an immediate clue that MW will be playing football elsewhere in 2023 and ZW will be back as our starter under a new OC w/a different philosophy/system.

These are my thoughts while looking clearly — and without bias — at the situation. 

I hope you enjoyed my Jets Talk. 

[BroadwayRay]

29 minutes ago, DireJet said:

MW's attributes perfectly align w/what MLF is trying to do: unbelievably quick processing, tough as hell to stick in the pocket and make all the throws, great accuracy/touch on short/intermediate routes & gets rid of the ball quickly. It's almost an unfair fight between MW & ZW in this offense because MW is just perfectly built to execute it.

These are traits that would be valued by any OC and for any system. I honestly don't know what system ZW is built for, unless there's a system out there that relies on the QB leaving the pocket on every pass play and has him and the receivers running around like maniacs.

[DireJet]

14 minutes ago, BroadwayRay said:

These are traits that would be valued by any OC and for any system. I honestly don't know what system ZW is built for, unless there's a system out there that relies on the QB leaving the pocket on every pass play and has him and the receivers running around like maniacs.

It’s a fair point. But it’s clear that ZW hasn’t developed to be of use in the MLF system. So something is going to have to change. Jets have to just make a decision. No point in continually jamming a square peg into a round hole. 

[Alka]

39 minutes ago, DireJet said:

What you will read below (maybe?!?!) is not coming from an emotional space. This is just what I think is going to happen based on what I've seen, read and heard. 

First, ZW will be on the roster in 2023 so let's just get that out of the way now. But will he be the starter? That's the big question. IMO, the only way he will be named the starter is if MLF is gone. I think their relationship has soured on the football field and ZW's frustrations are evident. MLF almost seemed to punish ZW after the INT yesterday and took away everything he was doing well in the first half. It wasn't until midway through the 4q — a time when the game opens up and the QB has more freedom to make plays — that ZW recovered in any sense of the word. MLF can't deal w/ZW's inconsistencies within his preferred system and doesn't seem willing to shake things up too much to cater to Zach's strengths while hiding his weaknesses. This kind of relationship between QB and OC is not sustainable, IMO. It's not good for the player or the team.

Now, contrast this with Mike White. MLF knows that MW is the perfect QB for HIS system. MW's attributes perfectly align w/what MLF is trying to do: unbelievably quick processing, tough as hell to stick in the pocket and make all the throws, great accuracy/touch on short/intermediate routes & gets rid of the ball quickly. It's almost an unfair fight between MW & ZW in this offense because MW is just perfectly built to execute it. He also has improved tenfold since last year while ZW is still experiencing the same issues that haunted him as a rookie. 

Check out the spray charts from the last 2 home games from each QB against similarly bad NFC north defenses: Detroit & Chicago.

They could not be more different and the MLF system clearly favors a guy w/MW's skill-set. It's not even close. Just look above. MW's spray chart is what MLF dreams of when prepping for a game. It's ******* Picasso to him. ZW's, meanwhile, is all over the place — yet still impressive in its own right — but totally against what MLF's trying to do w/his offense. ZW's performance is more reliant on his personal skills than MLF's offensive philosophy. It's like oil and water. 

The Jets have a big decision to make in the offseason and that will have a domino effect on the entire composition of the offense. Are we getting a new OC or keeping MLF? If they stick w/MLF, I think ZW will be the backup and MW will get paid and brought back as the starter. In that event, I think ZW's tenure in NY beyond 2023 is over. He will want to start over elsewhere. 

If the Jets get rid of MLF at the end of the season, I think that's an immediate clue that MW will be playing football elsewhere in 2023 and ZW will be back as our starter under a new OC w/a different philosophy/system.

These are my thoughts while looking clearly — and without bias — at the situation. 

I hope you enjoyed my Jets Talk. 

This is very informative and helpful.  I learned quite a bit from this.  I think your conclusions are "on the money."

[DireJet]

2 minutes ago, Alka said:

This is very informative and helpful.  I learned quite a bit from this.  I think your conclusions are "on the money."

Thanks very kind of you! 

[FidelioJet]

I appreciate the effort, sincerely, - but this is just another Zach sucks and "Mike White is Perfect"  (literally what you wrote)

This could have been put in any number of the dozens of "Mike White is Perfect" and Zach Wilson sucks threads on this board.

[Maxta_p]

Judging by the stats and graphics, I would say that Mike White is pretty perfect and Zach sucks

[slimjasi]

14 minutes ago, BroadwayRay said:

These are traits that would be valued by any OC and for any system. I honestly don't know what system ZW is built for, unless there's a system out there that relies on the QB leaving the pocket on every pass play and has him and the receivers running around like maniacs.

Yeah, the problem is, I don't think a system exists for a guy who misses so many easy throws in 2022. He just leaves too many throws on the field right now to be viable, IMO. 

It's a shame because he does have the ability to make game-changing chunk throws when he gets outside the pocket, and they are so fun to watch in real time, but you have to be able to make the routine, boring throws extremely consistently to play QB in the NFL and he just can't do that. 

[Skeet Ulrich]

 The real answer to the QB position is Trevor Lawrence, but the Jets decided this game:

 

https://www.nfl.com/games/jets-at-rams-2020-reg-15

 

was worth more than fixing the QB spot for 8+ seasons.

[DireJet]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I appreciate the effort, sincerely, - but this is just another Zach sucks and "Mike White is Perfect"  (literally what you wrote)

This could have been put in any number of the dozens of "Mike White is Perfect" and Zach Wilson sucks threads on this board.

I didn’t say ZW sucked. I said he’s erratic and inconsistent — yet talented in his own right. I said his spray chart was impressive. All facts!

The issue is he doesn’t fit what we’re trying to do w/MLF’s offense. This isn’t emotional for me so no feelings hurt. It’s just what I think is going on here and the personnel issues at play. 

[GangGreened]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I appreciate the effort, sincerely, - but this is just another Zach sucks and "Mike White is Perfect"  (literally what you wrote)

This could have been put in any number of the dozens of "Mike White is Perfect" and Zach Wilson sucks threads on this board.

Great contribution, Captain!

[BroadwayRay]

Just now, Skeet Ulrich said:

 The real answer to the QB position is Trevor Lawrence, but the Jets decided this game:

 

https://www.nfl.com/games/jets-at-rams-2020-reg-15

 

was worth more than fixing the QB spot for 8+ seasons.

Why does everyone harp on the Rams game when there was also a win against the Browns and their Covid-depleted WR Corps that cost us Trevor Lawrence?

[DireJet]

5 minutes ago, Maxta_p said:

Judging by the stats and graphics, I would say that Mike White is pretty perfect and Zach sucks

Jets aren’t catering to what ZW does well. Look at the spray charts. ZW is great w/deep throws outside the hashes. That’s not what the MLF offense is predicated on. We’re in a situation where ZW is not in the best place to succeed based on offensive philosophy. If we are keeping MLF onboard, there’s literally ZERO reason to keep starting Zach unless he shows rapid improvement in the areas of his game that are needed to excel in the offense. I just don’t see a scenario where MLF & ZW both stick around. Makes no sense. 

[Skeet Ulrich]

Just now, BroadwayRay said:

Why does everyone harp on the Rams game when there was also a win against the Browns and their Covid-depleted WR Corps that cost us Trevor Lawrence?

There are ways to intentionally lose games. The Jets in all their infinite wisdom, decided to do the exact opposite of what was to be done. They deserve the misery they get - it's self imposed.

 

[DireJet]

5 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Yeah, the problem is, I don't think a system exists for a guy who misses so many easy throws in 2022. He just leaves too many throws on the field right now to be viable, IMO. 

It's a shame because he does have the ability to make game-changing chunk throws when he gets outside the pocket, and they are so fun to watch in real time, but you have to be able to make the routine, boring throws extremely consistently to play QB in the NFL and he just can't do that. 

You could be right. 

[BroadwayRay]

Just now, Skeet Ulrich said:

There are ways to intentionally lose games. The Jets in all their infinite wisdom, decided to do the exact opposite of what was to be done. They deserve the misery they get - it's self imposed.

 

Yeah, such as benching Gardner Minshew the last half of the season.

[carlito1171]

Me personally, I would move on from Lafleur an hire someone like Frank Reich......it has little to do with Zach, and everything to do with the fact that I'm not a fan of OCs who don't tailor their offense to their personnel......If Mikey had Lamar Jackson and Tom Brady, he'd call the same exact game for them. The problem with system above everything is that QB isn't a one size fits all position, different QBs have different strengths and weaknesses....even when mikey has had his perfect fit at QB, he's left a lot to be desired

for instance look at our defense. Saleh and Ulbrich made an adjustment for type of CBs we have, we've moved away from a ton of cover 3 and play more Cover 1/Cover 4 to take advantage of having two excellent man-to-man CBs......that's good coaching to me....molding your scheme around what you have, not the other way around. That's what Adam Gase tried to do and failed miserably....as I mentioned yesterday, look at how Brian Daboll has fooled people into thinking DJ is a competent QB just by calling a game that fits his strengths....

But, Saleh isn't firing Mikey any time soon....so our best bet is to sign QBs who purely fit the system. Zach(for all of his faults), whether he's a bust, or someone who puts it together later on, isn't gonna find success here with this OC.....ain't happening.....

[Skeet Ulrich]

1 minute ago, BroadwayRay said:

Yeah, such as benching Gardner Minshew the last half of the season.

The Jaguars are run by smarter people than the Jets, this much is known.

[Jetsfan4life90]

3 minutes ago, DireJet said:

Jets aren’t catering to what ZW does well. Look at the spray charts. ZW is great w/deep throws outside the hashes. That’s not what the MLF offense is predicated on. We’re in a situation where ZW is not in the best place to succeed based on offensive philosophy. If we are keeping MLF onboard, there’s literally ZERO reason to keep starting Zach unless he shows rapid improvement in the areas of his game that are needed to excel in the offense. I just don’t see a scenario where MLF & ZW both stick around. Makes no sense. 

Agreed. 

But then it goes back to, why the hell did they draft Zach Wilson? They should have traded back and drafted Mac Jones in that case.

[DireJet]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan4life90 said:

Agreed. 

But then it goes back to, why the hell did they draft Zach Wilson? They should have traded back and drafted Mac Jones in that case.

I have conspiracy theories of why we selected ZW but I won’t subject y’all to them. ?

[carlito1171]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan4life90 said:

why the hell did they draft Zach Wilson? They should have traded back and drafted Mac Jones in that case.

my question from day 1.....I never saw him as a fit for a Shanahan WCO....and I'm just a joe schmoe....no clue why JD and Saleh thought it could work...

[slimjasi]

11 minutes ago, BroadwayRay said:

Why does everyone harp on the Rams game when there was also a win against the Browns and their Covid-depleted WR Corps that cost us Trevor Lawrence?

Because, with the Rams win, we lost control of our own destiny (i.e. the Jags owned the tie-breaker). The Browns win ended up not mattering - if we had lost to the Browns, we still would have been picking number 2 overall. 

[BroadwayRay]

3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Because, with the Rams win, we lost control of our own destiny (i.e. the Jags owned the tie-breaker). The Browns win ended up not mattering - if we had lost to the Browns, we still would have been picking number 2 overall. 

Believe me, I remember every last detail of that whole thing. The real point is that Adam Gase should burn in hell.

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, BroadwayRay said:

Believe me, I remember every last detail of that whole thing. The real point is that Adam Gase should burn in hell.

Ok, but that is why nobody talks about the Browns game

[Augustiniak]

13 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

Me personally, I would move on from Lafleur an hire someone like Frank Reich......it has little to do with Zach, and everything to do with the fact that I'm not a fan of OCs who don't tailor their offense to their personnel......If Mikey had Lamar Jackson and Tom Brady, he'd call the same exact game for them. The problem with system above everything is that QB isn't a one size fits all position, different QBs have different strengths and weaknesses....even when mikey has had his perfect fit at QB, he's left a lot to be desired

for instance look at our defense. Saleh and Ulbrich made an adjustment for type of CBs we have, we've moved away from a ton of cover 3 and play more Cover 1/Cover 4 to take advantage of having two excellent man-to-man CBs......that's good coaching to me....molding your scheme around what you have, not the other way around. That's what Adam Gase tried to do and failed miserably....as I mentioned yesterday, look at how Brian Daboll has fooled people into thinking DJ is a competent QB just by calling a game that fits his strengths....

But, Saleh isn't firing Mikey any time soon....so our best bet is to sign QBs who purely fit the system. Zach(for all of his faults), whether he's a bust, or someone who puts it together later on, isn't gonna find success here with this OC.....ain't happening.....

Love reich.  

[Copernicus]

I have been thinking of this a lot lately, if MLF's (49ers) offense is based on talented players and a QB who is more manager than super star then why did we draft Zach Wilson in the first place? 

[JetPotato]

MLF and ZW are both employed by the NYJ in 2023 for better or for worse.

Saleh loves MLF. ZW's contract is not movable. Period.

Best case scenario is ZW is the scout QB all next season and something clicks with him in the process.

[Larz]

There were more roll outs called, no question about it ,but even the running game is “clunky “  this is also the time of year tendencies have to be accounted for and I get the feeling watching now that he’s not adjusting his tendencies. 
 

can we get some throws to the backs ?

the first play I saw he had berrios motioning in a full sprint behind Zach to his right. Ok.  It was open but can it be a simpler throw ?  

[DireJet]

1 minute ago, Larz said:

There were more roll outs called, no question about it ,but even the running game is “clunky “  this is also the time of year tendencies have to be accounted for and I get the feeling watching now that he’s not adjusting his tendencies. 
 

can we get some throws to the backs ?

the first play I saw he had berrios motioning in a full sprint behind Zach to his right. Ok.  It was open but can it be a simpler throw ?  

Yeah I felt like MLF started the game well and called it to cater to Zach w/the rollouts and deeps shots. But he must’ve snapped after the INT bc he put ZW in a box after that. Weird to see it play out. I just know that kind of seemingly punitive play calling is not gonna translate to wins or player development. Maybe I’m off though. I’d have to go back and more closely watch how it played out after his INT. 

[Larz]

3 minutes ago, DireJet said:

Yeah I felt like MLF started the game well and called it to cater to Zach w/the rollouts and deeps shots. But he must’ve snapped after the INT bc he put ZW in a box after that. Weird to see it play out. I just know that kind of seemingly punitive play calling is not gonna translate to wins or player development. Maybe I’m off though. I’d have to go back and more closely watch how it played out after his INT. 

That’s really interesting.  I didn’t see the first half but that would be disappointing if true because good play callers give these young guys a few layups to get them going and I feel like we never see that from mlf 

[FidelioJet]

45 minutes ago, DireJet said:

I didn’t say ZW sucked. I said he’s erratic and inconsistent — yet talented in his own right. I said his spray chart was impressive. All facts!

The issue is he doesn’t fit what we’re trying to do w/MLF’s offense. This isn’t emotional for me so no feelings hurt. It’s just what I think is going on here and the personnel issues at play. 

You literally called Mike White "Perfect" twice in that post.  

I suspect you believe that.  All I was saying is we can put that in one of the Mike White is perfect threads.  

There are plenty.  You surely have a right to your opinion - just not so much clutter is just beneficial.

 

[FTL Jet Fan]

43 minutes ago, DireJet said:

I didn’t say ZW sucked. I said he’s erratic and inconsistent — yet talented in his own right. I said his spray chart was impressive. All facts!

The issue is he doesn’t fit what we’re trying to do w/MLF’s offense. This isn’t emotional for me so no feelings hurt. It’s just what I think is going on here and the personnel issues at play. 

This would explain that hour and a half delay before the press conference. Things might be ugly behind the scenes with the CS. 

[FTL Jet Fan]

40 minutes ago, DireJet said:

I have conspiracy theories of why we selected ZW but I won’t subject y’all to them. ?

Let’s here them.

[slimjasi]

10 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

You literally called Mike White "Perfect" twice in that post.  

 

Not quite 

He wrote that MW was "perfect for his (MLF's) system" 

He also wrote that MW's attributes "perfectly align w/what MLF is trying to do"

He also wrote that MW is "perfectly built to execute it (MLF's offense)"

None of that is the same as "Mike White is perfect." Context is everything!

[Hex]

33 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

my question from day 1.....I never saw him as a fit for a Shanahan WCO....and I'm just a joe schmoe....no clue why JD and Saleh thought it could work...

Because very few QBs can make the throw that Zach Wilson made at pro day. It's probably one of the biggest reasons he was picked by the Jets. He threw the ball across his body 60 yards from left to right. He was probably the only QB in the draft that could do that easily. In JD's head, Zach Wilson was his only chance at getting such a talented QB.