QB School - The Zach Wilson Experiment is Nearing Its End

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Look Zach had 300 plus against Detroit but we still lost. The yardage totals are overrated. But I agree on Darnold he’s not proven yet to be a reliable starter. 

We lost because the offense doesn't score with Zach Wilson under center.  He's a 3-and-out machine.

Darnold has also only thrown for 3 TDs in 3 games.  He isn't productive and neither is Wilson.  

[Ron Rico]

Radiance Technologies Independence Bowl Player of the Game

Clayton Tune, QB Houston
He came through when he had to. Tune connected on 18-of-28 passes for 229 yards and three touchdowns with no interceptions, led the team with 55 rushing yards, and led the game-winning touchdown drive in the final minutes.

[Rangers9]

29 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

We lost because the offense doesn't score with Zach Wilson under center.  He's a 3-and-out machine.

Darnold has also only thrown for 3 TDs in 3 games.  He isn't productive and neither is Wilson.  

We lost against the Lions because he threw a pick plus a punt run back for a Td and a defensive breakdown at end of game still Jets had a shot to tie the game at end. He played well for 3 out of 4 quarters. Yesterday terrible from the start. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

We lost against the Lions because he threw a pick plus a punt run back for a Td and a defensive breakdown at end of game still Jets had a shot to tie the game at end. He played well for 3 out of 4 quarters. Yesterday terrible from the start. 

No 3-and-out in the shadow of his own end zone, no punt return for a TD.  That drive started at the 2 and finished on the 1, with back-to-back incompletions ending the possession. 

He directly created that opportunity for Detroit.  Punting from your own 1 always has the potential for disaster.

[Rangers9]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No 3-and-out in the shadow of his own end zone, no punt return for a TD.  He directly created that opportunity for Detroit.  

I thought it was a bad punt and poor coverage. That 7 was the difference in the game. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Rangers9 said:

I thought it was a bad punt and poor coverage. That 7 was the difference in the game. 

Dude.  They punted from their own one after back-to-back incompletions by Zach.  Punting from your 1 always has the potential for disaster.

Again:  No 3-and-out, no punt return TD.  Zach directly created that opportunity.

And this was against a bottom-3 pass defense, too.  

[Dupe]

I don’t see why there should be a quarterback battle between Wilson and White.  They have completed this in real games and Mike White won by a mile.  

[jgb]

6 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Look Zach had 300 plus against Detroit but we still lost. The yardage totals are overrated. But I agree on Darnold he’s not proven yet to be a reliable starter. 

The opposite has been proven with reasonable certainty. Darnold is now at the point where he would have to reverse that conclusion.

[JetsMetsRangers]

8 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Dude.  They punted from their own one after back-to-back incompletions by Zach.  Punting from your 1 always has the potential for disaster.

Again:  No 3-and-out, no punt return TD.  Zach directly created that opportunity.

And this was against a bottom-3 pass defense, too.  

Against Buffalo the Jets started from their 2 and 6 yard lines because of Berrios not fielding either punt an White lead them to first downs both times picking up 25 and 18 yards to change field position.......Hell even Streveler got them out from the 2 against Jacksonville......The 3 and out against the Lions lead to the punt and return for the TD.....And the third down slant to Mims was almost picked because it was thrown behind him and hitting the Detroit CB.........

[jgb]

9 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

I thought it was a bad punt and poor coverage. That 7 was the difference in the game. 

It was a 3 point game… every score or failure to do so was the difference in the game.

[56mehl56]

17 minutes ago, jgb said:

It was a 3 point game… every score or failure to do so was the difference in the game.

Right, so that td the D gave up with 2 minutes left up by 4 made the difference in the game otherwise its still a 4 pt game and the Jets win. 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Right, so that td the D gave up with 2 minutes left up by 4 made the difference in the game otherwise it’s still a 4 pt game and the Jets win. 

I can perform this thought experiment on many, many plays that game but we both know it’s a waste of both our time.

Yes it was a bad play. But to boil a one-score game down to a single play and say it is the reason we lost is fraught with cognitive biases.

[56mehl56]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

I can perform this thought experiment on many, many plays that game but we both know it’s a waste of both our time.

Yes it was a bad play. But to boil a one-score game down to a single play and say it is the reason we lost is fraught with cognitive biases.

Yet many want to use the Berrios drop as the reason for the Vikes MW loss. You can't have it both ways. 

[jgb]

Just now, 56mehl56 said:

Yet many want to use the Berrios drop as the reason for the Vikes MW loss. You can't have it both ways. 

If you want to argue against that position you should go find someone who holds it.

[56mehl56]

Just now, jgb said:

If you want to argue against that position you should go find someone who holds it.

I think half the posters here have used that not too hard to find. 

[jgb]

Just now, 56mehl56 said:

I think half the posters here have used that not too hard to find. 

Then go debate with them rather than impute it to me to dodge my point.

[56mehl56]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Then go debate with them rather than impute it to me to dodge my point.

That football is a team game , wow there's a novelty thought. The whole premise of this thread is focusing on a single player as the reason for the Jets failures.

It's what the MW vs ZW debates have keyed on from day individual vs individual.

It's a team game where winning matters,  not look and feel , not stats , not almosts. The fact is the team in 2 years has won 11 games , 8 with ZW starting 2 with MW and 1 with JF. That's cold hard facts that can't be refuted .

So for all the ZW bashing and all the MW pumping and absolutes being thrown around like the team is so much better with MW starting I contend optics and individual stats mean sh*t in a team sport where winning is ultimate.  

 

[rangerous]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:16 AM, heymangold said:

41 TDs, 12 INTs with a 63.2% completion percentage in 30 games played.  on terrible jacksonville teams.  you'll see this weekend he's starter material.

okay, decent passing stats but what was the team's record?  not for nothing but qb stats are dependent on how the defense of the opposing team plays.  if the jags were playing from behind then the passing stats would probably be pretty good. and 1.3 td's per game isn't exactly eye opening.

[doitny]

12 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

So how many guys are we going to draft high and then cut them when they suck and in a few years with another team maybe get good. 

and who are these guys you speak of? i dont know any of them.

Geno took 8 years to have one good one. lets see if he could string together a few more good ones before we say he is good otherwise he is still a bust. you want to get Zach 8 years?

Darnold sucked ass last year. and has played ok in 3 games so far. i wouldnt be saying we messed up on him either.

[jgb]

26 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

That football is a team game , wow there's a novelty thought. The whole premise of this thread is focusing on a single player as the reason for the Jets failures.

It's what the MW vs ZW debates have keyed on from day individual vs individual.

It's a team game where winning matters,  not look and feel , not stats , not almosts. The fact is the team in 2 years has won 11 games , 8 with ZW starting 2 with MW and 1 with JF. That's cold hard facts that can't be refuted .

So for all the ZW bashing and all the MW pumping and absolutes being thrown around like the team is so much better with MW starting I contend optics and individual stats mean sh*t in a team sport where winning is ultimate.  

 

[Rich Thornburgh]

11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

We lost because the offense doesn't score with Zach Wilson under center.  He's a 3-and-out machine.

Darnold has also only thrown for 3 TDs in 3 games.  He isn't productive and neither is Wilson.  

Darnold is, was and always will be a better player than Wilson. Low Bar? Yes. But it’s true

[Rich Thornburgh]

11 minutes ago, doitny said:

and who are these guys you speak of? i dont know any of them.

Geno took 8 years to have one good one. lets see if he could string together a few more good ones before we say he is good otherwise he is still a bust. you want to get Zach 8 years?

Darnold sucked ass last year. and has played ok in 3 games so far. i wouldnt be saying we messed up on him either.

The bigger mess up was drafting Wilson. We actually downgraded at qb 

[TuscanyTile2]

11 hours ago, Coquito said:

Radiance Technologies Independence Bowl Player of the Game

Clayton Tune, QB Houston
He came through when he had to. Tune connected on 18-of-28 passes for 229 yards and three touchdowns with no interceptions, led the team with 55 rushing yards, and led the game-winning touchdown drive in the final minutes.

I've never heard of this guy until your post but I'm fully ready to let him be our starting QB in 2023!  

Are there any WRs named "O'Brien" in this draft, btw?  "Tune to O'Brien" has a nice ring to it!

[doitny]

 

32 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

That football is a team game , wow there's a novelty thought. The whole premise of this thread is focusing on a single player as the reason for the Jets failures.

It's what the MW vs ZW debates have keyed on from day individual vs individual.

It's a team game where winning matters,  not look and feel , not stats , not almosts. The fact is the team in 2 years has won 11 games , 8 with ZW starting 2 with MW and 1 with JF. That's cold hard facts that can't be refuted .

So for all the ZW bashing and all the MW pumping and absolutes being thrown around like the team is so much better with MW starting I contend optics and individual stats mean sh*t in a team sport where winning is ultimate.  

 

stats mean everything in every sport. thats how we judge who is good and who is not. he is not going to say the team is 5-4 with Zach and thats better than 1-2 with White so lets keep Zach as starter.

the only reason Zach has 8 wins to White 2 is he started 22 games to Whites 6. so if you want to throw around those numbers you cant. give White 16 more starts and then we can talk

the cold hard facts are that QB is the most important position in sports and Zach is the worst by far for 2 years running. White is better than Zach, the offense plays better with White than Zach. stats prove this. even if you dont believe in stats your eyes have to see Zach cant hit the side of a barn.

you have to be the lst guy who doesnt think White is much better than Zach. and im not saying White is great, its just that Zach is that so bad

[derp]

On 12/22/2022 at 9:10 AM, slats said:

I really wasn’t up for another first round QB that close to Darnold, and I’m definitely not up for another one two years after drafting Zach. LaFluer just wants to run his system, so going after a QB with “traits” that they don’t even attempt to develop has proven to be counter-productive. What they really want at QB is a game manager and while White has demonstrated that he can be that, his lack of athleticism/big play arm leaves him consistently vulnerable to his susceptibility to get injured. They need a game manager+, who can make the occasional chunk play downfield and/or with his legs. Certainly a QB capable of protecting himself. Zach has those abilities, but cannot seem to function in a structured offense - no matter how hard they try to make that happen. 
 
Can’t overemphasize the importance of tonight’s game for him and his future here. There’s the real possibility that it’s his last start for the team if he can’t put up an impressive performance with a win. Even with that, he’d finish the year on a short leash with a healthy enough White waiting behind him. 
 
They need to self scout and identify what they need in a QB. It might be a guy like Minshew. It can’t be another rookie at this point. Not to start. I don’t think they can afford to pay White and pay another free agent QB or trade for one. They can trade Zach away, though. He probably has value to someone who believes they can get the most out of him, even if he looks psychologically shot here. 

I do think that they need a quarterback who fits what they want to do systematically and that isn’t necessarily a guy with loud tools. For the teams with Shanahan roots, I’m thinking SF and LAR, the guy with loud tools has kind of been the step after the offense has found a ceiling with the game manager type.

This regime, IMO, tried to run before they walked. They took the raw guy with loud tools but not an obvious run threat to tread water while he developed, threw him onto a roster that wasn't set up to support him, and just played him. There may have been a plan with Knapp, but shy of that there was just nothing. It was just we think this will work out. 

Rams just dropped in Stafford after Goff wasn’t getting it done and the 49ers dropped Lance into a roster so loaded that Brock Purdy who went with literally the last pick last draft is winning games for them.

The other benefit to having those rosters built and then having the limited guy expose the limitations is that those teams had built identities and knew what they needed to improve upon. This offense doesn’t quite have an identity yet. It’s circled one but injuries, youth, and personnel changes have really prevented that from coming to fruition.

I think they need to figure out what they want to do offensively and who they think can do that for them as they continue to build up the roster. The line is aging and weak, Wilson is the only dynamic pass catching threat. I think we’ve seen White can run things, so hopefully he returns.

I could see there being a mid round guy in this class who’s smart and can move around a little but maybe doesn’t have the arm - I don’t know who that is but I know a lot of guys who were good college QB’s but limited prospects got extra years due to the pandemic and stuck around so there will be players to take. Not to necessarily start, but at the very least to compete and also to have a degree of intrigue and excitement over throwing out Flacco if there’s an injury. And we do know that this system can run without a crazy talented QB if there’s an injury, SF has done it for years. Plus Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott don’t happen a lot but they do happen, may as well take a shot.

[doitny]

1 hour ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

The bigger mess up was drafting Wilson. We actually downgraded at qb 

i think your right. Cimini just said on ESPN radio that if White cant play he thinks its Flacco vs Seattle. he just cant see how Saleh can convince the team that Zach is the better option than Flacco. 

[maury77]

1 hour ago, derp said:

I do think that they need a quarterback who fits what they want to do systematically and that isn’t necessarily a guy with loud tools. For the teams with Shanahan roots, I’m thinking SF and LAR, the guy with loud tools has kind of been the step after the offense has found a ceiling with the game manager type.

This regime, IMO, tried to run before they walked. They took the raw guy with loud tools but not an obvious run threat to tread water while he developed, threw him onto a roster that wasn't set up to support him, and just played him. There may have been a plan with Knapp, but shy of that there was just nothing. It was just we think this will work out. 

Rams just dropped in Stafford after Goff wasn’t getting it done and the 49ers dropped Lance into a roster so loaded that Brock Purdy who went with literally the last pick last draft is winning games for them.

The other benefit to having those rosters built and then having the limited guy expose the limitations is that those teams had built identities and knew what they needed to improve upon. This offense doesn’t quite have an identity yet. It’s circled one but injuries, youth, and personnel changes have really prevented that from coming to fruition.

I think they need to figure out what they want to do offensively and who they think can do that for them as they continue to build up the roster. The line is aging and weak, Wilson is the only dynamic pass catching threat. I think we’ve seen White can run things, so hopefully he returns.

I could see there being a mid round guy in this class who’s smart and can move around a little but maybe doesn’t have the arm - I don’t know who that is but I know a lot of guys who were good college QB’s but limited prospects got extra years due to the pandemic and stuck around so there will be players to take. Not to necessarily start, but at the very least to compete and also to have a degree of intrigue and excitement over throwing out Flacco if there’s an injury. And we do know that this system can run without a crazy talented QB if there’s an injury, SF has done it for years. Plus Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott don’t happen a lot but they do happen, may as well take a shot.

I was thinking about this as well yesterday, although moreso from the perspective of the 49ers when they went to the SB with Kaepernick. Minshew or White for a season or 2 while they develop a day 2 QB (Richardson) who plays occasionally while he develops might be the best way to go.

[Ron Rico]

Are the Giants playing today? 

[JetsMetsRangers]

2 hours ago, doitny said:

 

stats mean everything in every sport. thats how we judge who is good and who is not. he is not going to say the team is 5-4 with Zach and thats better than 1-2 with White so lets keep Zach as starter.

the only reason Zach has 8 wins to White 2 is he started 22 games to Whites 6. so if you want to throw around those numbers you cant. give White 16 more starts and then we can talk

the cold hard facts are that QB is the most important position in sports and Zach is the worst by far for 2 years running. White is better than Zach, the offense plays better with White than Zach. stats prove this. even if you dont believe in stats your eyes have to see Zach cant hit the side of a barn.

you have to be the lst guy who doesnt think White is much better than Zach. and im not saying White is great, its just that Zach is that so bad

Amazing that the "Wins" is what matters crowd would not want the QB who gives you the best chance to win.......Right now if healthy would be Mike White and not even close......So do wins matter or is it some folks feelings get hurt because Zach has been horrific......If people do not think White gives the Jets the best chance to win i do not know what else to say!

[derp]

14 minutes ago, maury77 said:

I was thinking about this as well yesterday, although moreso from the perspective of the 49ers when they went to the SB with Kaepernick. Minshew or White for a season or 2 while they develop a day 2 QB (Richardson) who plays occasionally while he develops might be the best way to go.

I have wanted a mobile QB for quite some time. As the Jets have had good defenses for years, a guy getting a first down with his legs when coverage is good is such a backbreaker.

It’s also an easy way to allow the offense to move the chains and build confidence as a thrower is developing - Hurts is a nice example there.

I think the way the league is going it’s easier to accommodate.

Don’t think Richardson goes day two though. And I don’t trust ownership to actually let a developmental guy stay developmental when the fans get impatient.

[maury77]

14 minutes ago, derp said:

I have wanted a mobile QB for quite some time. As the Jets have had good defenses for years, a guy getting a first down with his legs when coverage is good is such a backbreaker.

It’s also an easy way to allow the offense to move the chains and build confidence as a thrower is developing - Hurts is a nice example there.

I think the way the league is going it’s easier to accommodate.

Don’t think Richardson goes day two though. And I don’t trust ownership to actually let a developmental guy stay developmental when the fans get impatient.

It depends on how the vet is playing. If the team is winning games and the QB is giving you Andy Daltonish production, I don't think you will hear many calls for the backup. 

[Ron Rico]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

i think your right. Cimini just said on ESPN radio that if White cant play he thinks its Flacco vs Seattle. he just cant see how Saleh can convince the team that Zach is the better option than Flacco. 

Then why didn't Saleh start Flacco against the Lions? 

Something bad is going on, there. Why is he even on the roster? 

[Ron Rico]

3 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

That football is a team game , wow there's a novelty thought.

 

Yes, it's a team sport. Every player on the team is expendable, replaceable, and they know it. It's up to each player to compete at the highest level, including the QB. Average performance will get you replaced. Below average, will get you replaced.

Sucking worse than any other player at your position in the entire league? 

Yeah, that's gonna get you replaced.

[56mehl56]

3 hours ago, doitny said:

 

stats mean everything in every sport. thats how we judge who is good and who is not. he is not going to say the team is 5-4 with Zach and thats better than 1-2 with White so lets keep Zach as starter.

the only reason Zach has 8 wins to White 2 is he started 22 games to Whites 6. so if you want to throw around those numbers you cant. give White 16 more starts and then we can talk

the cold hard facts are that QB is the most important position in sports and Zach is the worst by far for 2 years running. White is better than Zach, the offense plays better with White than Zach. stats prove this. even if you dont believe in stats your eyes have to see Zach cant hit the side of a barn.

you have to be the lst guy who doesnt think White is much better than Zach. and im not saying White is great, its just that Zach is that so bad

Which is why they mean absolutely nothing , the only stat that matters is W & L .  Fans judging who is good or not is irrelevant , 

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Which is why they mean absolutely nothing , the only stat that matters is W & L .  Fans judging who is good or not is irrelevant , 

Respectfully, someone who thinks like this is simply not worth taking seriously. You lack a basic understanding of what gets those W or L’s when you ignore or don’t understand player stats and metrics.