Most important part of what Saleh said yesterday

[Joe W. Namath]

2 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

There’s no good reason to cut Zack Wilson. The trade market won’t make it worth a trade either.

At this point you sit him, put him in QB flight school boot camp and hope for the best in 2024.

Making sense is frowned upon around here.  You have to cut and fire everyone immediately.

[PepPep]

58 minutes ago, KRL said:

As popular as it is to trash Wilson and to declare that he's done here
I believe Saleh and expect him to get another shot in 2023.  Thankfully
we aren't DEN and haven't committed a ton of $$$ to the QB spot.  I 
expect White to be re-signed (2 yrs / 12-15 million) and a training
camp battle between he and Wilson

Not gonna happen. 12-15 million for 2 years??? You kidding me? MW will want starter money and get it. If not from the Jets then from another team. 
 

This is the conundrum. The Jets need a proven vet. I have no issue bringing back MW but not as the starter for starter money. Go after one of the many FA (or trade) options which should be available this off-season. I’d rather over pay for a proven vet than over pay for MW. 

[Adoni Beast]

7 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Making sense is frowned upon around here.  You have to cut and fire everyone immediately.

Haha exactly. I don’t think Zack Wilson will ever be a good starting or even backup QB.

But there‘s no gain to cutting bait unless some team offered a decent return (which won’t happen).

He’s not causing issues in the locker room and it would cost more to cut him than to keep him. You pray for a miracle and make him work.

What we’re seeing is Aaron Rogers…if he started year 1 and 2 instead of sitting for 4 years. No, I’m not saying Wilson will be Rogers just that certain players need that time to really sit, learn, and develop.

[Skeet Ulrich]

10 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Not gonna happen. 12-15 million for 2 years??? You kidding me? MW will want starter money and get it. If not from the Jets then from another team. 

https://www.nfl.com/players/mike-white/stats/

 

Most other teams looking for a QB have their own version of Mike White or will draft a young guy.

 

[johnnysd]

1 hour ago, AFJF said:

Only part I disagree with is the trade aspect.  I may be wrong, but I can't see anyone offering more than a day 3 pick.  For that little, just keep working with him if you believe he can be salvaged.

If they think he's poop...move on and hope you're not wrong.

Unlike what people think here now, Zach was HIGHLY rated out of college. He was pretty universally considered the #2 prospect and was #1 on several boards.

It is obvious (again not so much to the hate blinded segment of fans here) that at least part of the issue is Mike LaFleur. He is clearly trying to force Zach into his system and not treating it like say Baltimore would and designing an offense around Zach. Whether Zach would also suck in that offense is unknown. Maybe he would. With his confidence clearly shot maybe he just would suck in everything. But you have reasonably high profile people like Weis and Daniel Jeremiah and others blaming the failures on LaFleur which means that opinion is first, likely held by JD because of his relationship with JD and held by other coaches and executives across the lead

In addition that does not change the fact that Zach has elite skills that can not be developed or coached up.

Zach would have much stronger interest in the NFL than the fans here that just want him gone would ever believe.

I doubt JD would get a first, but he might and he wouldn't trade Zach for a low round pick anyway. He can probably get a Darnold like package for Zach. Before people go on about Rosen, that situation was different because of Murray. ARI had to trade Rosen. And Rosen was no where near as high rated to begin with as Zach.

Because of the DJ comments and repeated tweets backing it up, I do believe that Saleh is being honest and truthful in his statements. White DOES have an opportunity in these next two games. But if we miss the playoffs and go 1-1 or 0-2 and White is average, the Jets will fire LaFleur and start over with Zach. There will likely be 15-20 new Jets next year so "losing the team" is not really going to be a consideration. The uncertainty at QB could affect FA and possibly even Q, but because of our cap situation we are not going to be big players there anyway.

We have some foundational players now. But we may very well take a step back next week as we continue to get younger and have roster turnover.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

If there was ever a QB who needed a year to sit and learn the NFL game and fix the mechanics, learn the defenses, adjust to the speed, it was ZW coming out of BYU. he was drafted high because he has high end arm talent, and he is pretty athletic. Neither of those two things made him ready to play on day 1. It was idiotic to start him from day 1

[Lurker89]

21 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Not gonna happen. 12-15 million for 2 years??? You kidding me? MW will want starter money and get it. If not from the Jets then from another team. 

Mike white has not proven anything... at this point no one should or would pay him "starter" money...

If he wins these 2 upcoming games and does something/ anything in the playoffs then their is a discussion to be had.

[johnnysd]

1 hour ago, KRL said:

As popular as it is to trash Wilson and to declare that he's done here
I believe Saleh and expect him to get another shot in 2023.  Thankfully
we aren't DEN and haven't committed a ton of $$$ to the QB spot.  I 
expect White to be re-signed (2 yrs / 12-15 million) and a training
camp battle between he and Wilson

A lot depends on the next two games. If White is awesome and we make the playoffs the Jets will do everything they can to resign him but they still might be unsuccessful. If he is average to below average I am not so sure we re-sign him. We need money to sign Q, Huff, OL, etc,,,before we can consider giving that type of money to White.  And there is a good chance White will see another opportunity as better.

In terms of contract it would be probably be off of Winston as a comparable

https://overthecap.com/player/jameis-winston/3849

His is a 5 year contract with 3 void years for $15 million guaranteed, so probably the minimum for White is a 4 or 5 year contract that has a 2 year guarantee of at least $18 million.

I actually think that White might be the perfect situation for the rarely used transition tag. It would make a lot of sense for the Jets.

I think there is no scenario where they franchise him.

 

[johnnysd]

1 hour ago, derp said:

I appreciate the commitment to development younger players that Saleh has pretty consistently shown. Played a ton of young guys the past couple of years. And seems he understands not everyone develops the same way. I also appreciate that he's not completely reactionary - this is a sport full of small sample sizes and lending too much weight to those small samples can really get you in trouble.

I don't know how much the coaching staff thought they could play Wilson (or whatever QB got drafted) off the bat versus Douglas felt those guys were prepared enough to play off the bat. But I didn't think Wilson (or any QB they drafted in the first if that's the route they went in 2021) should have played right away.

Not sure I agree with this. I would say you need to have an OK OL to start a rookie QB and the Jets did not.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, johnnysd said:

A lot depends on the next two games. If White is awesome and we make the playoffs the Jets will do everything they can to resign him but they still might be unsuccessful. If he is average to below average I am not so sure we re-sign him. We need money to sign Q, Huff, OL, etc,,,before we can consider giving that type of money to White.  And there is a good chance White will see another opportunity as better.

In terms of contract it would be probably be off of Winston as a comparable

https://overthecap.com/player/jameis-winston/3849

His is a 5 year contract with 3 void years for $15 million guaranteed, so probably the minimum for White is a 4 or 5 year contract that has a 2 year guarantee of at least $18 million.

I actually think that White might be the perfect situation for the rarely used transition tag. It would make a lot of sense for the Jets.

I think there is no scenario where they franchise him.

 

If this offense can't produce against Seattle and Miami, two teams that others have no problem producing against, its time to give serious thought to replacing MLF. My vote would be to go all in on Payton, but if they are tied to Saleh, they need to bring in a competent GM if this offense is not very good the next two weeks. ZW is no longer the excuse. They have the QB they want. I thought the offense was very underwhelming against the Vikings and Bills

[johnnysd]

1 hour ago, drsamuel84 said:

It would be pretty unorthodox to do but if MW plays well the next two weeks I wonder if they would consider franchising him, bringing in a real solid backup like a Teddy Bridgewater and sort of giving ZW a red shirt year to just sit on the sidelines and develop.  I think within the organization there is still some belief he can be a good QB but right now he's dragging down a potential playoff team.

Not a chance. They are not spending $40-$50 million on the QB position next year. They might transition tag White but unless he somehow gets us to the SB we are not franchising Mike White.

[VJphillyfan]

1 hour ago, Larz said:

What choice do they have ? Cut him and take a cap charge of 11 million and 20 million in dead money?  
 

That 30 million pays for Fant, McGovern and Quinnen. You can’t lose 3 starters to spite Zach 

Zach gets paid $11 million to wear pajamas next season.  End of discussion.

[johnnysd]

1 minute ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

If this offense can't produce against Seattle and Miami, two teams that others have no problem producing against, its time to give serious thought to replacing MLF. My vote would be to go all in on Payton, but if they are tied to Saleh, they need to bring in a competent GM if this offense is not very good the next two weeks. ZW is no longer the excuse. They have the QB they want. I thought the offense was very underwhelming against the Vikings and Bills

Payton can choose where he goes. He will likely get 50% more than the highest coach has gotten so far so in the range of $15 million and the Jets would still be paying Gase and Saleh. I am not sure if OC contracts are guaranteed but probably are just less $$. Then Payton is only coming here with full control so JD is almost certainly fired. Would you be OK with all of that?

[PepPep]

44 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

https://www.nfl.com/players/mike-white/stats/

 

Most other teams looking for a QB have their own version of Mike White or will draft a young guy.

 

If they did, they would not be ‘looking for a qb’ if that makes sense. If MW is not good enough for other teams to offer him starter money, they Jets should not be paying him starter money. The Jets are not the only team in need of a major QB upgrade. And not all of them will go the draft route. 

[PepPep]

43 minutes ago, Lurker89 said:

Mike white has not proven anything... at this point no one should or would pay him "starter" money...

If he wins these 2 upcoming games and does something/ anything in the playoffs then their is a discussion to be had.

Maybe. But the QB market always gets inflated. MW is still young and had done enough for some team to take a chance on him as a starter. I’m not saying he will get 35mil a year. I’m just saying 12mil per for 2 years is highly unlikely. And the idea that the Jets will dole out a new contract to him NOT to start is also unlikely. 

[Klecko73isGod]

2 hours ago, Larz said:

What choice do they have ? Cut him and take a cap charge of 11 million and 20 million in dead money?  
 

That 30 million pays for Fant, McGovern and Quinnen. You can’t lose 3 starters to spite Zach 

But then you still need a QB.

[Biggs]

54 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Unlike what people think here now, Zach was HIGHLY rated out of college. He was pretty universally considered the #2 prospect and was #1 on several boards.

It is obvious (again not so much to the hate blinded segment of fans here) that at least part of the issue is Mike LaFleur. He is clearly trying to force Zach into his system and not treating it like say Baltimore would and designing an offense around Zach. Whether Zach would also suck in that offense is unknown. Maybe he would. With his confidence clearly shot maybe he just would suck in everything. But you have reasonably high profile people like Weis and Daniel Jeremiah and others blaming the failures on LaFleur which means that opinion is first, likely held by JD because of his relationship with JD and held by other coaches and executives across the lead

In addition that does not change the fact that Zach has elite skills that can not be developed or coached up.

Zach would have much stronger interest in the NFL than the fans here that just want him gone would ever believe.

I doubt JD would get a first, but he might and he wouldn't trade Zach for a low round pick anyway. He can probably get a Darnold like package for Zach. Before people go on about Rosen, that situation was different because of Murray. ARI had to trade Rosen. And Rosen was no where near as high rated to begin with as Zach.

Because of the DJ comments and repeated tweets backing it up, I do believe that Saleh is being honest and truthful in his statements. White DOES have an opportunity in these next two games. But if we miss the playoffs and go 1-1 or 0-2 and White is average, the Jets will fire LaFleur and start over with Zach. There will likely be 15-20 new Jets next year so "losing the team" is not really going to be a consideration. The uncertainty at QB could affect FA and possibly even Q, but because of our cap situation we are not going to be big players there anyway.

We have some foundational players now. But we may very well take a step back next week as we continue to get younger and have roster turnover.

Agree with everything except Rosen was actually rated higher than Zach.  Rosen fundementals were universally considered elite.  Zach moved up because of his "off platform" ability.   

Watch tape of Rosen throwing the football.  His footwork and mechanics are miles better than Zach's.   Both have .10 cent heads.  

[56mehl56]

47 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

If this offense can't produce against Seattle and Miami, two teams that others have no problem producing against, its time to give serious thought to replacing MLF. My vote would be to go all in on Payton, but if they are tied to Saleh, they need to bring in a competent GM if this offense is not very good the next two weeks. ZW is no longer the excuse. They have the QB they want. I thought the offense was very underwhelming against the Vikings and Bills

It was , but MW was the QB so everyone thought it was fantabulous.  I hope I'm wrong and MW blows the doors off the Seahawks and Fins the next two weeks. However I'm having a hard time shaking those Fitsy vs the Bills vibes from a few years ago. 

[Dunnie]

3 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

developing zach only works if you somehow fenagle a second reasonably priced contract out of it. 

this is so true ... if you extend zach additional years on the cheap ... makes a lot of sense.

[VJphillyfan]

1 minute ago, Dunnie said:

this is so true ... if you extend zach additional years on the cheap ... makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for making me laugh.  You are a funny guy

[jmat321]

This is going to be the Hess/Pete Carroll thing all over again, isn’t it?

[derp]

2 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Not sure I agree with this. I would say you need to have an OK OL to start a rookie QB and the Jets did not.

So I guess I didn’t state it directly but I thought it was pretty obvious - and I posted it in another thread. The personnel situation was a complete botch job from the start. That falls on Douglas, not Saleh.

At best Wilson was an raw toolsy prospect who never should’ve seen the field from day one, let alone on a bad team. And they handed him the job without any other option on the roster.

[Warfish]

5 hours ago, AFJF said:

Is this just for Zach, or should they cut bait on all players who struggle though their first 1 1/2-2 seasons?

My comment was specific to Zach.

Every player should be individually evaluated.

Two years is enough for me to have a full evaluation. on Zach and his likely future in the NFL.

I presume from the tenor of your question that you feel differently? How long would you need?  Would you like to name Zach the 2023 starter, so we can “see what we got”, same as this year?

[Jetsfan80]

5 hours ago, AFJF said:

Is this just for Zach, or should they cut bait on all players who struggle though their first 1 1/2-2 seasons?

Calling Zach's first 1.5 seasons in the league a "struggle" would be like calling Polish citizens' experience in 1939-40 a "dust up". 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

4 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Payton can choose where he goes. He will likely get 50% more than the highest coach has gotten so far so in the range of $15 million and the Jets would still be paying Gase and Saleh. I am not sure if OC contracts are guaranteed but probably are just less $$. Then Payton is only coming here with full control so JD is almost certainly fired. Would you be OK with all of that?

I would be OK with any scenario at all that Payton comes here

[Flea Flicking Frank]

3 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

It was , but MW was the QB so everyone thought it was fantabulous.  I hope I'm wrong and MW blows the doors off the Seahawks and Fins the next two weeks. However I'm having a hard time shaking those Fitsy vs the Bills vibes from a few years ago. 

I personally think the fan base has over rotated a bit on MW out of pure hatred for ZW. I think Mike White did some good things and looked competent, but the offense was not overly good and he was not a wold beater against the Vikings nor the Bills. I am of course rooting for him and would love nothing more than him to prove to be the guy

[Warfish]

4 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Unlike what people think here now, Zach was HIGHLY rated out of college. He was pretty universally considered the #2 prospect and was #1 on several boards.

It is obvious (again not so much to the hate blinded segment of fans here) that at least part of the issue is Mike LaFleur. He is clearly trying to force Zach into his system and not treating it like say Baltimore would and designing an offense around Zach. Whether Zach would also suck in that offense is unknown. Maybe he would. With his confidence clearly shot maybe he just would suck in everything. But you have reasonably high profile people like Weis and Daniel Jeremiah and others blaming the failures on LaFleur which means that opinion is first, likely held by JD because of his relationship with JD and held by other coaches and executives across the lead

In addition that does not change the fact that Zach has elite skills that can not be developed or coached up.

Zach would have much stronger interest in the NFL than the fans here that just want him gone would ever believe.

I doubt JD would get a first, but he might and he wouldn't trade Zach for a low round pick anyway. He can probably get a Darnold like package for Zach. Before people go on about Rosen, that situation was different because of Murray. ARI had to trade Rosen. And Rosen was no where near as high rated to begin with as Zach.

Because of the DJ comments and repeated tweets backing it up, I do believe that Saleh is being honest and truthful in his statements. White DOES have an opportunity in these next two games. But if we miss the playoffs and go 1-1 or 0-2 and White is average, the Jets will fire LaFleur and start over with Zach. There will likely be 15-20 new Jets next year so "losing the team" is not really going to be a consideration. The uncertainty at QB could affect FA and possibly even Q, but because of our cap situation we are not going to be big players there anyway.

We have some foundational players now. But we may very well take a step back next week as we continue to get younger and have roster turnover.

The depth Zach truthers will sink, already selling off 2023 and tearing apart the team, just to “see what we got” in Zach yet again? Hell no.

[Jetsplayer21]

6 hours ago, KRL said:

As popular as it is to trash Wilson and to declare that he's done here
I believe Saleh and expect him to get another shot in 2023.  Thankfully
we aren't DEN and haven't committed a ton of $$$ to the QB spot.  I 
expect White to be re-signed (2 yrs / 12-15 million) and a training
camp battle between he and Wilson

He has zero shot at winning the starting job next yr. The hard thing is, he can look great in practice but obviously he can’t be trusted in real life games where he is scared of getting hit. Hard to “ develop “ and teach toughness like a guy like Mike white obviously has. He will be the QB-3, maybe 4, next yr if he is here. 

[AFJF]

38 minutes ago, Warfish said:

My comment was specific to Zach.

Every player should be individually evaluated.

Two years is enough for me to have a full evaluation. on Zach and his likely future in the NFL.

I presume from the tenor of your question that you feel differently? How long would you need?  Would you like to name Zach the 2023 starter, so we can “see what we got”, same as this year?

I'm right down the middle.  I'm fine with cutting bait and moving on and I'm fine with giving him another year if the Jets brass feel he's worth it.

On the one  hand I think he's done.  He's not the guy.  At the same time, if you can tie up a roster spot to develop Tony Adams and/or Jeremy Ruckert for a year, why can't you do it for a season of Zach as the QB3?

Edited December 28, 2022 by AFJF

[Jet_Engine1]

6 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

developing zach only works if you somehow fenagle a second reasonably priced contract out of it. 

And unfortunately,  the only way to develop Zach is to move the Jets from the AFC East over to the Mountain West Conference.....

[68JET11]

6 hours ago, undertow said:

They can develop players as long as they want just as long as it's not at the expense of 50 other guys on the team and at the expense of season ticket holders who pay thousands to sit in the rain and watch Wilson throw the ball into the ground for two years.  Acting like fans weren't patient with the epic level of disaster Zach WIlson was is comical most fans were protecting the kid a month ago.

Agree completely... If that were truly the way they feel about Zach than they shouldn't have started him year 1. That was the biggest disservice to Zach and the fanbase. This is why I have a problem with the OC staff and how they've "supposedly" are helping Zach develop. He sits on the sidelines talking to nobody most of the time, and he doesn't wear a headset or carry a clipboard. He should be tasked with studying each play as it happens, and marking down who was open where and when. That should be study material for QB meetings. I'm not saying Zach isn't in much need of serious development, but I just don't see the effort from this coaching staff. Now nobody wants to see him in year 3, and that should be the year where he takes strides in his development. JMO

[JiF]

5 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

Geno has been in the NFL for a decade and it took until after 3 years as the backup on his 4th team before it finally worked out.  Credit to him for being good enough to stick as backup for that long and then finally take advantage of the opportunity, but we've still yet to see whether he can sustain this level of play long-term.  Even if he does, using one of the most significant outliers in league history is hardly much of an argument.  It's like saying you should spend every cent you have on lottery tickets every day because occasionally someone wins.  The reality is over the past 2 years Wilson's been the league's very worst QB, and history at the position gives no reason to believe anything will magically change, especially now more than ever with how excessively favored the passing game is in today's NFL.

In the end though, anyone who's paid attention to Saleh over the past 2 years should know that he is never going to say an unkind word about any of his players in public, no matter how frustrated he is with them.  That is an admirable trait, but also means there's little that should be taken from it, unless looking to paint a narrative someone wants to see.  Saleh's been blowing smoke up Mim's ass since the day he got here and yet the guy still hasn't broken past #4/5 on the depth chart and steps onto the field strictly based on the injuries or benching of others.  There's little reason to believe this is any different, particularly for a guy at a the league's most important position he's benched for the second time this season despite JD having tried to avoid there being any viable options to compete for the spot, other than the ones he wants, since the day he got here.

Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean you need to cut Wilson on the spot.  Assuming there's no great trade offers made for him, I'm totally fine with him sticking around, but you do not promise him even one more single snap for the rest of his career, as they need to go into next year with multiple better options at the position, to start and even for depth.  If by some miracle Wilson breaks through that crowd than so be it, but it would be wildly irresponsible to waste even one more second of the full team's time on an individual player who, to this point, has been a monumental bust.  I'm sure Saleh already realizes that, and Wilson will get the same opportunity to learn and grow that every bench player in the league gets, for as long he's still in it, but is deserving of no more than that.

All this and honestly, I get a different take away from these comments.  To me it indicates just how secure Saleh is in his job because he's taking some liberties.  Most coaches, dont get to see the 3rd year of hand selected worst QB in the league who they took 2nd overall in the draft.  The Head Coaching positoin is way more cut throat from a job security perspective than the players.  2 coaches have already been fired this year, how many starting QB's have been cut? 

 

[JiF]

5 hours ago, johnnysd said:

I doubt JD would get a first, but he might

[Ron Rico]

5 hours ago, Adoni Beast said:

Haha exactly. I don’t think Zack Wilson will ever be a good starting or even backup QB.

 

He's Rick Mirer.

[freestater]

8 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

And unfortunately,  the only way to develop Zach is to move the Jets from the AFC East over to the Mountain West Conference.....

As long as we don't have to play Coastal Carolina