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Are The Jets Obligated to Play Zach in 2023


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1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

...and then team pet Streveler was cheered when he came onto the field.

Probably because the "team pet" gained more yards in one drive than the ZW-led O gained in three quarters, more or less.

Production levels as low as Zach's, as consistently as Zachs, is a rare thing at the NFL level.  Most teams simply don't stick with players producing this poorly as long as we have.

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5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Probably because the "team pet" gained more yards in one drive than the ZW-led O gained in three quarters, more or less.

Production levels as low as Zach's, as consistently as Zachs, is a rare thing at the NFL level.  Most teams simply don't stick with players producing this poorly as long as we have.

No, they cheered him taking the field before he took a first snap.

Wilson has been brutal. Whatever possibility he has for a career turnaround, Geno-esque or otherwise, and however much anyone blindly believes it's going to happen because they want it so badly, it should seem clear to even those people that at a minimum it's not happening here.

And c'mon Fish, a (thus far) <2 yr tryout for a QB they drafted at #2? That's pretty normal. I don't think the singular Rosen occurrence is at all typical. 

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7 minutes ago, rangerous said:

As it is they will have to compete with maybe 10 other teams depending on how well he does in these last two games.

Are you MW's agent?  That is a VERY optimistic (from a MW perspective) figure.

I doubt the interest level in MW will be remotely that hot,  They'll be some, sure, but at lower cost levels, and certainly not 10 teams.

We consistently forget that most NFL teams already have tehir own hand-picked Mike White

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7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Outside of Daboll and Josh Allen, which NFL QB's have had "their mechanics developed" at the NFL level recently and then found success?

IMO, from the league I'm watching, the NFL isn't really for development, and certainly isn't for development of players completely unprepared to perform at this level mechanically.  Some QB's may need some time for the depths of the mental game at the professional level to sink in, or to gain proper weight/strength via true pro-level conditioning programs, sure, but "developing" basic mechanics of playing the QB position?  I honestly don't think so.

Our community often laments that we (the Jets) such at "developing QB's", but who in this league is good at "developing QB's" exactly?  And who are these horrible, worst-in-NFL level QB's getting "developed" into stars only after they get to the NFL? 

On a certain level I don't disagree with you in terms of taking a person who is completely raw and teaching them to play QB. Hence why Zach Wilson was a bad pick in retrospect. He displayed bad mechanics in college and the Jets just ignored it because they fell in love with his traits and work ethic.

But I think you're making kind of a hyperbolic comparison from a guy who is completely broken to being rebuilt. Trevor lawrence like they pointed out on the broadcast changed his throwing motion to be a quicker, less elongated release and metrics like time to throw throw the ball has changed significantly for him as a point of emphasis. That's not a rebuild by any stretch, but they corrected a flaw in his mechanics to improve him.

After 20 games, Zach still can't throw a ball into the flat accurately and throws with his feet pointed in the wrong direction. I don't think I'm asking for much here. If he's doing it in games, he's clearly not repping it enough in practice with any sort of accountability.

 

 

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The Jets org and Saleh have made it clear they are willing to go in a different direction at the Qb position. If they had confidence in Zach he would be in uniform and starting on Sunday which is the most important game of the season for the Jets. With Saleh esp a lot of this might be coming from the locker room and the feelings of players. It's not just receivers frustrated by poor quarterbacking it's the defense playing hard and losing games because of poor O. They played a good game in that second NEP game holding them to 3 points and were pretty ticked off. btw the Jets lost that game because of STs at end of game. There were no Zach turnovers just a weak offensive performance. 

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6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, they cheered him taking the field before he took a first snap.

Worst production in the NFL, by a meaningful margin, two years running.

Abandonment of responsibility.  

Offense produces much better whenever he isn't in.

What part of this surprises you my friend? 

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Wilson has been brutal. Whatever possibility he has for a career turnaround, Geno-esque or otherwise, and however much anyone blindly believes it's going to happen because they want it so badly, it should seem clear to even those people that at a minimum it's not happening here.

The "Just Needs a Change of Scenery" fallacy.

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

And c'mon Fish, a (thus far) <2 yr tryout for a QB they drafted at #2? That's pretty normal. I don't think the singular Rosen occurrence is at all typical. 

Except the Rosen occurrence isn't singular.  Several QB's have warranted being dumped from the league early for being obvious and complete busts with almost no chance of recovery.  

Draft investment is usually all the saves them, the Sunk Cost fallacy at work as usual. 

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8 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

On a certain level I don't disagree with you in terms of taking a person who is completely raw and teaching them to play QB. Hence why Zach Wilson was a bad pick in retrospect. He displayed bad mechanics in college and the Jets just ignored it because they fell in love with his traits and work ethic.

But I think you're making kind of a hyperbolic comparison from a guy who is completely broken to being rebuilt. Trevor lawrence like they pointed out on the broadcast changed his throwing motion to be a quicker, less elongated release and metrics like time to throw throw the ball has changed significantly for him as a point of emphasis. That's not a rebuild by any stretch, but they corrected a flaw in his mechanics to improve him.

After 20 games, Zach still can't throw a ball into the flat accurately and throws with his feet pointed in the wrong direction. I don't think I'm asking for much here. If he's doing it in games, he's clearly not repping it enough in practice with any sort of accountability.

I'm certainly not trying to be rude or combative my friend, but making small changes to throwing motion is pretty common.  Rookies do it, and long-time veterans do it too.  Throwing motion is one of those things that changes (mostly in small ways) as a player goes through their career. 

Zach will not be fixed by a minor change to throwing motion.  Zach does not know how to play QB at the NFL level, he is lacking in almost every skill/talent required, vision, decision making, accuracy, touch, pocket feel/presence, footwork and more.

Zach needs to be developed the way a youth football kid would.  Totally, from the ground up.  That does not happen at the NFL level.

Again, I'll ask (because I think it's the key here):  who has been developed to this degree at the NFL level?  Even Allen didn't need this degree of development/fixing.   

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Who knows anymore lol.  The insider leaks, the hot takes , the press conferences it’s all a hot mess. If I had to guess I’d say that the jets keep Zach around and give him the full work up on image rehabilitation, send him to a QB guru, hire the best QB coach they can and make a decision on him post June 1. The trick of course is free agency and the draft happen before that so I think they will be opportunistic shoppers. I think it’s very unlikely they draft a QB in rd 1. 

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30 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Outside of Daboll and Josh Allen, which NFL QB's have had "their mechanics developed" at the NFL level recently and then found success?

IMO, from the league I'm watching, the NFL isn't really for development, and certainly isn't for development of players completely unprepared to perform at this level mechanically.  Some QB's may need some time for the depths of the mental game at the professional level to sink in, or to gain proper weight/strength via true pro-level conditioning programs, sure, but "developing" basic mechanics of playing the QB position?  I honestly don't think so.

Our community often laments that we (the Jets) such at "developing QB's", but who in this league is good at "developing QB's" exactly?  And who are these horrible, worst-in-NFL level QB's getting "developed" into stars only after they get to the NFL? 

Aaron Rodgers completely changed his mechanics while he sat the first seasons.

The league doesn’t seem to develop players or have an interest.  
 

McDaniel just reworked Tua by drilling fundamentals but then got his brain damaged enough to ruin his career.  I think that’s the exception in the NFL though and not a huge counterpoint to your argument.    Knapp was supposed to be the guy here.  

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4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'm certainly not trying to be rude or combative my friend, but making small changes to throwing motion is pretty common.  Rookies do it, and long-time veterans do it too.  Throwing motion is one of those things that changes (mostly in small ways) as a player goes through their career. 

Zach will not be fixed by a minor change to throwing motion.  Zach does not know how to play QB at the NFL level, he is lacking in almost every skill/talent required, vision, decision making, accuracy, touch, pocket feel/presence, footwork and more.

Zach needs to be developed the way a youth football kid would.  Totally, from the ground up.  That does not happen at the NFL level.

Again, I'll ask (because I think it's the key here):  who has been developed to this degree at the NFL level?  Even Allen didn't need this degree of development/fixing.   

Agreed with what you're saying. I think the most realistic scenario is he's going to get moved or cut at some point and i'm certainly not planning anything in the future roster-wise with him in mind. He's a sunk cost as far as I'm concerned, I was just more musing on what I feel like the front office does.

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3 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Isn't  it obvious. JD doesn't  want to be remembered for selecting one of the biggest all time busts in NFL history. 

If Wilson doesn't have a massive turnaround, he'll be remembered both for drafting the bust AND for being too stubborn to course correct.

He sticks with Wilson, and it fails, he'll never be an NFL GM again.

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Wilson's base salary and roster bonuses are is guaranteed for 2023 and 2024.  $940K and $1.055M base and $2.9 and $4.4 roster bonus.  I believe these would all be assumed by acquiring team.  If I am right, that means acquiring team has him on 2-year $9.3M deal.  We would be responsible for $11.4M of signing bonus.  Cap hit if we keep him is $9.6M.  $11.4M to trade him.  So trade would cost us $1.8M cap space in 23 but free up $11M by not having him on roster in '24.

Assuming I am interpreting his contract details correctly, trade would be much more palatable from cap persepctive than cut which would mean we eat all $20.7M remaining cap charges, either in 23 or spread across 23 and 24 if a post June 1 cut.

 

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2 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

This is a question I have been asking myself. I think there is virtually no chance JD trades Zach for anything less that what we got for Darnold so I think Zach is still here in 2023. So let's  say he is for argument sake. If MW plays well in the next two games and dare I say the playoffs, will the Jets have an obligation to see if Zach improved and play him in real games. I don't think we can go off the preseason and camp, I think we will not get a clear picture that way. 

 

If JD force feeds the Jets franchise Zach Wilson for another season, even if he's just a backup, it'll cost him his job. 

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14 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Isn't  it obvious. JD doesn't  want to be remembered for selecting one of the biggest all time busts in NFL history. 

That ship has sailed whether Douglas wants to accept it or not 

Wilson can’t be counted on to lead a playoff caliber team ready to legit contend in ‘23

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49 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think even JD will have to admit the extreme unlikeliness that it'll happen here for ZW, if it happens anywhere eventually. The fan base has already turned on him -- ffs every time there wasn't a positive gain enough for a 1st down he was booed, and then team pet Streveler was cheered when he came onto the field. That's on top of whatever % of truth their is to some leaks that the coaches - Saleh and probably his handpicked OC - don't like him (as a QB, personally, or both). Then the latest that Woody certainly hasn't been all-in on him, at least of late, and for all the foil hat stuff ranging from 'meddling' to 'jetblue' it appears Woody has been totally hands-off with this in terms of letting JD do what he wants; that even if he was consulted on everything from Saleh to Zach, he never vetoed anything or forced an alternative. @Mogglez would be the one to chime on on that guess, if he can or is willing, but that's how things look.

Sum of that? Even if JD believes ZW could still be a successful QB is he really going to take the goodwill from his 2022 draft piss stream & turn 180 degrees into the wind? He can say he believes in ZW but everyone else in the bldg is telling him Zach has to go, and imo that's enough coverage for him in terms of job security; but if he is the last man standing, and keeps Wilson - never mind forcing him to be the starter by providing no one else credible in his stead - he's putting his whole future career on a mental bundle of nerves who no longer has the benefit of a clean slate & now has to further turn around a coaching staff and a fanbase (and probably the owner, too). 

Summary: even if JD still believes Zach can be a good starter, and that could/would be sooner rather than later, his (GM career) life will go on without Wilson but not if he forces Wilson onto the team and it fails for a 3rd yr in a row. He's only 46, and sure he probably has more than enough to retire on (6 yrs gtd at I'm guessing ~$4MM/yr) does he really want to unnecessarily gamble the rest of his GM future on this kid? That's a bad bet, and the risk vs. reward doesn't add up when he can add an average QB (or maybe pair White with a Minshew type) and make the playoffs that way to earn an extension.

Douglas isn't new to front offices & ought to be mature enough to realize that even the best GMs - and all those with a better & more successful track record - swing & miss on guys they absolutely "knew" were the goods & then just weren't. 

Nice synopsis but I thinknthere is a little more to it that is going to make JD give Zach every possible chance. We don't  know for sure but JD was supposedly  offered trades to move from the 2nd overall  selection and wouldn't  budge. I believe theb9ers and one other team made offers. JD was so sold on Zach, that this was the guy, he wouldn't  even consider the offers. Also in Zachs first season JD brought in no competition, not even 0 competition.  So there were a bunch of missteps in how this whole thing was handled that JD is going g to have to own and I think he might believe in his third season, Zach will figure it out. 

Now let me say I don't  agree, but I just think this will be a bitter pill to swallow. 

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2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Glazer has his report that Zach is gone in the same week that Steve Young changes his tone to “it’s too bad it didn’t work out there, but go Jets!” and Zach’s mom is talking about the Jets in the past tense. It sounds like they at least have the framework for some type of departure from the Jets. It’s a terrible QB draft class this year—someone will decide Zach is a better bet than wee Bryce Young or big dope Will Levis. 

Work your magic JD!

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23 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Aaron Rodgers completely changed his mechanics while he sat the first seasons.

The league doesn’t seem to develop players or have an interest.  
 

McDaniel just reworked Tua by drilling fundamentals but then got his brain damaged enough to ruin his career.  I think that’s the exception in the NFL though and not a huge counterpoint to your argument.    Knapp was supposed to be the guy here.  

QBs who need a “complete change” in mechanics shouldn’t be drafted # 2 overall in the first place. 

The Packers had the luxury of waiting on Rodgers in part because he was a late 1st, not a top 5 pick.  

If Jordan Love ends up a bust that’ll put a fairly big dent in your argument.  

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Coming into this season, one of the (if not THE) primary goals was to determine whether or not Zach had a future here as the team’s FQB. I really didn’t think that he could perform so poorly that they’d be able to come to the conclusion that would be a definitive “no,” but he’s exceeded my expectations in that regard. 
 
I also think JD will be able to trade him. And, looking at the QB carousel, it’s not like it’s jam packed with sure-fire options. When the musical chairs get close to ending, I think he’ll end up elsewhere. I also expect a much cleaner option at QB to join the roster. Someone who’s floor is at least capable. If for some reason they can’t/don’t move him, he will have to earn every rep. Just seems like that press conference was the last straw for a lot of the locker room, though. It’s very hard to see him coming back from that. His last game was arguably his worst as a pro. It’s just not working out here. 

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3 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Lafluer told you yesterday.  Zach isnt going anywhere.  He is super talented and will be developed here.  He will have an opportunity to compete for the qb job in 2023 with guys like white/minshew and if he wins it, good for him.

Zach trade to Houston incoming.  

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3 minutes ago, Arsis said:

Zack Wilson can't play the way things are right now. It would cause the majority of fans to give up on the franchise and cause major financial harm to the team.

 

 

Hes not playing right now.  We are talking about next year. 

If he looks great in camp and beats out whoever else is here, he is the starter.  If not, we spend the year developing him more.  Its not that complicated.

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3 hours ago, jgb said:

I actually think the chances are >50% he is not a Jet next season 

If he stays and they try to force feed him into game action, the chances of me watching that is <= ZERO.

I wrote on this board before the Jags that I cannot watch that man play football.

Trade him for a bag of funions and let’s move on.

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Outside of Daboll and Josh Allen, which NFL QB's have had "their mechanics developed" at the NFL level recently and then found success?

IMO, from the league I'm watching, the NFL isn't really for development, and certainly isn't for development of players completely unprepared to perform at this level mechanically.  Some QB's may need some time for the depths of the mental game at the professional level to sink in, or to gain proper weight/strength via true pro-level conditioning programs, sure, but "developing" basic mechanics of playing the QB position?  I honestly don't think so.

Our community often laments that we (the Jets) such at "developing QB's", but who in this league is good at "developing QB's" exactly?  And who are these horrible, worst-in-NFL level QB's getting "developed" into stars only after they get to the NFL? 

You raise good points Warfish. I think Zac has a ways to go in the mental capacity and his imaturity has totally disrupted his raw abilities. Of course, it's partly a porous Oline but what a horrible inability to see the field. 

I think JD puts him on the trading block for a veteran QB who's team thinks in the right situation Zac can be developed. Riding the pine is in Zac's near future

 

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2 hours ago, GKnight83 said:

I think all options for ZW are on the table now.

Also think the addition of real competition at QB is necessary.

Do not think Flacco or MW are the level of competition needed.

JD and RS have been making reasonable decisions.

Going to be interesting to see how this is handled.

 

A QB that ends up inactive every other week will not be back. JD will have no problem pulling a trade for a 4th or 5th on this bust.

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34 minutes ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

If he stays and they try to force feed him into game action, the chances of me watching that is <= ZERO.

I wrote on this board before the Jags that I cannot watch that man play football.

Trade him for a bag of funions and let’s move on.

Agree I stopped watching him after his second start this year as posted and stuck by that.

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38 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Hes not playing right now.  We are talking about next year. 

If he looks great in camp and beats out whoever else is here, he is the starter.  If not, we spend the year developing him more.  Its not that complicated.

LOL never has and never will buddy.

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4 hours ago, FlightBoyz said:

Zach will be included in the trade package for Carr 

Raiders are releasing Carr. Don't see us signing him but who knows. Either Brady or Jimmy G will go to the Raiders. I have a serious issue giving huge money to a QB that a team would literally rather have nothing at QB. You cannot just expect his performance to be what his previous output was. I would be OK with it but not happy, but I would lose my mind with Lamar. My preference is draft pick and try to get Jordan Love but my I can definitely see Zach as the starter next year just on the history of the NFL

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7 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Raiders are releasing Carr. Don't see us signing him but who knows. Either Brady or Jimmy G will go to the Raiders. I have a serious issue giving huge money to a QB that a team would literally rather have nothing at QB. You cannot just expect his performance to be what his previous output was. I would be OK with it but not happy, but I would lose my mind with Lamar. My preference is draft pick and try to get Jordan Love but my I can definitely see Zach as the starter next year just on the history of the NFL

How could you possibly see Zach as the starter here?

He has been atrociously atrocious.

He has gotten worse, not better.

He has lost the locker room.

The Jets are ready to win now.

The fans will boo him with every bad throw.

2 goals in the NFL:  win or at least fill the seats trying.  Zach fails in both regards.

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