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How is he to be blamed???


AL047

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Why is everyone blaming Offensive Coordinator Mike LaFleur for Zach Wilson's failure??? (Please Explain)

Please remember Mike White came out of Western Kentucky in 2017 and was drafted by the Dallas Cowboys in round five in 2018 and was later cut by the team. The Jets picked him up in 2019 and in 2021 replaced Zach Wilson who was injured against New England. Since then, White has shown flashes at QB, while Wilson has not!!!

Both Wilson and White have learned the same system from Offensive Coordinator Mike LaFleur. It seems Mike White picked up the offense system better than Wilson. Both played with the same offensive line problems!!! Same WRs and TE's!!! But Mike White has a better grasp of the offensive system than Zach Wilson!!!

IMO can't blame LaFleur for Zach Wilson's failure!!!

Teams have done their homework on the Jets!!!! They know the Jets have no running threat at all and are one dimensional. They also know Wilson running ability out of the pocket and they eliminated that with the ILB tracking him sideline to sideline. They know also the offensive line is the biggest weakness, so defenses are having a field day blitzing all day at both Wilson and White. But the other main weakness are the corners coverage of Davis, Moore, and Mims, they are completely taken out of games. 

Again, how is LaFleur to blame???

 

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Just now, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Hes not, hes a fantastic OC and did a wonderful job developing Zach, and created an incredible offense in general. The lack of offense with or without Zach is not MLF's fault at all. If you think about it, 6 points against Seattle is quite good, with a competent QB and against a bottom 5 defense. Some OC's may have generated 3 points in that situation. I think MLF should be signed to a 10 year extension, hes legit

Nah, he'll be an HC somewhere in a season

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Just now, Hex said:

Nah, he'll be an HC somewhere in a season

Yes, I have read many times he will be a hot HC candidate soon. I really hope we don't lose him, and I am thinking this was some serious jiu-jitsu that he played against Seattle by only generating 6 points of offense against them, so that nobody comes after him this year and we get to be graced with his offensive prowess for at least one more year, hes awesome

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Just now, AL047 said:

Why is everyone blaming Offensive Coordinator Mike LaFleur for Zach Wilson's failure??? (Please Explain)

Please remember Mike White came out of Western Kentucky in 2017 and was drafted by the Dallas Cowboys in round five in 2018 and was later cut by the team. The Jets picked him up in 2019 and in 2021 replaced Zach Wilson who was injured against New England. Since then, White has shown flashes at QB, while Wilson has not!!!

Both Wilson and White have learned the same system from Offensive Coordinator Mike LaFleur. It seems Mike White picked up the offense system better than Wilson. Both played with the same offensive line problems!!! Same WRs and TE's!!! But Mike White has a better grasp of the offensive system than Zach Wilson!!!

IMO can't blame LaFleur for Zach Wilson's failure!!!

Teams have done their homework on the Jets!!!! They know the Jets have no running threat at all and are one dimensional. They also know Wilson running ability out of the pocket and they eliminated that with the ILB tracking him sideline to sideline. They know also the offensive line is the biggest weakness, so defenses are having a field day blitzing all day at both Wilson and White. But the other main weakness are the corners coverage of Davis, Moore, and Mims, they are completely taken out of games. 

Again, how is LaFleur to blame???

 

I think LaFleur has a piece of the blame as he has tried to force a square peg into a round hole. That being said, the entire team has failed him in that they brought in a QB that hasn’t played in a tough conference like the SEC or the Big 10 and gave him an inexperienced staff. A first year OC and a first time QB coach. They tried to replace Knapp with Cavanaugh and later in the year brought in John Beck. There was improvement in Wilson’s performance at the end of year 1. They should have made a permanent hire of an experienced QB Coach/ OC who could have helped both LaFleur and Wilson improve in year 2. Wilson may have still crapped the bed but at least he would have had a real shot.

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he has not been good but he has shown enough to get 1 more year with a legit QB.  Maybe bring in a more seasoned coach to assist.  Hard to come up with a good offense using 4 subpar QB's, an injured offensive line and losing your #1 offensive weapon.

 

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6 minutes ago, jbt said:

he has not been good but he has shown enough to get 1 more year with a legit QB.  Maybe bring in a more seasoned coach to assist.  Hard to come up with a good offense using 4 subpar QB's, an injured offensive line and losing your #1 offensive weapon.

 

Yes, he has really shown enough. Hopefully we can sign a big free agent QB and next time he can generate 9 points against a bottom 5 defense.

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18 minutes ago, Jet2020 said:

Zach is garbage. Always was. Doesn’t mean MLF isn’t either. But Zach not being able to throw the ball in the general vicinity of a WR is not on MLF (MiLF?). 

Is it MiLF's responsibility at all if Wilson's throwing issues are due in part to poor set-up and mechanics? Aren't the coaches supposed to notice these things in practice and on game film and make some effort to correct them?

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Crazy thought, everyone is to blame for the failure. JD for picking an extremely raw player at 2OA. Saleh for never making him earn snaps from day 1 of training camp or hiring a competent QB coach. MLF for just not being good enough at his job and alienating his WR room. Zach Wilson for not progressing enough in general despite all the opportunity in front of him.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Is it MiLF's responsibility at all if Wilson's throwing issues are due in part to poor set-up and mechanics? Aren't the coaches supposed to notice these things in practice and on game film and make some effort to correct them?

I don't like that we're using MiLF instead of MLF now. It's throwing me off. Can't just casually throw in milf into arguments. 

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Yeah, I thought that the very conservative playcalling when ZW was back there was b/c of his poor ability to read defenses, etc.  But, after the Bears game (a terrible team that totally did not show up vs. the Jets), the same was true with MW back there.  Third and longs seemed to be primarily checkdowns. It did seem like the offense opened up a bit after halftime if the Jets were trailing, creating some sense of urgency, I guess.

Now, it might also be that the OC just never had any faith in the OL to establish a consistent running game or pass protection for the QB, whoever he was.  ZW getting the yips and MW taking several big hits culminating in his ribs being broken might also be a result of poor OL pass protection.

Maybe some combination of the three: poor QB play, shaky (at best) OL, OC scheme that was too conservative and predictable.

 

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5 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

I don't like that we're using MiLF instead of MLF now. It's throwing me off. Can't just casually throw in milf into arguments. 

I think it is important to differentiate the brothers. MaLF and MiLF. I'm not really sure how else to do it. This might be more of a you problem. ?

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If we have to boil it down to one issue it has to the total collapse of the offensive line.  To think our running game went downhill solely because we lost Breece Hall is illogical.   Carter and then Knight came in and we’re running okay but slowly it came to a halt.   You can blame the fact that defenses were loading up the box daring us to pass because our QB was so weak.   The only issue with that is even when we passed the pocket collapsed immediately and often blitzing defenders came in totally unguarded at all.  It was truly painful to watch.   If we want to blame our OC for that then so be it.  Personally I think the unit was decimated by injuries.  We had some sublime effort to patch it up but losing AVT and then Max Mitchell the dam just burst.   Heck we had a guy who was a doctor pulled off the streets and into action as a last resort.   Is MLF to blame for not adapting the game plan to allow more movement out of the pocket to buy some time or try to develop a more creative run game plan?  I would say yes a really good coach could’ve made more of the situation.  Blaming it entirely on him though I think is a bit unreasonable.  

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33 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

Crazy thought, everyone is to blame for the failure. JD for picking an extremely raw player at 2OA. Saleh for never making him earn snaps from day 1 of training camp or hiring a competent QB coach. MLF for just not being good enough at his job and alienating his WR room. Zach Wilson for not progressing enough in general despite all the opportunity in front of him.

 

 

Exactly. Plenty of blame to go around. And Saleh and JD are now making their only play for 2023 -- belief in Wilson. Because the Jets will not have the cap space to sign Carr, Garroppolo, Brady or even Geno Smith. The Jet's available cap space puts them in the market for Any Daulton, Garnder Minshew, Teddy Bridgewater and Jacoby Brissett. 

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3 minutes ago, ChewyandtheJets said:

If we have to boil it down to one issue it has to the total collapse of the offensive line.  To think our running game went downhill solely because we lost Breece Hall is illogical.   Carter and then Knight came in and we’re running okay but slowly it came to a halt.   You can blame the fact that defenses were loading up the box daring us to pass because our QB was so weak.   The only issue with that is even when we passed the pocket collapsed immediately and often blitzing defenders came in totally unguarded at all.  It was truly painful to watch.   If we want to blame our OC for that then so be it.  Personally I think the unit was decimated by injuries.  We had some sublime effort to patch it up but losing AVT and then Max Mitchell the dam just burst.   Heck we had a guy who was a doctor pulled off the streets and into action as a last resort.   Is MLF to blame for not adapting the game plan to allow more movement out of the pocket to buy some time or try to develop a more creative run game plan?  I would say yes a really good coach could’ve made more of the situation.  Blaming it entirely on him though I think is a bit unreasonable.  

Isn't it part of the OC's job to adapt and overcome? How often are we told that injuries are a part of football and that teams have a "Next man up!" mentality?

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ZW could be awful, and MLF could be awful at his job as well.

Its really impossible for us to know what is going on inside the QB room, and what the coaches are seeing, and coaching and teaching him.

Its certainly possilbe that MLF did everything he could and this is 100% on ZW.

Its also possible that MLF has no idea of what he is doing and the Jets don't have the coaches in house to properly develop a young QB.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle

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We have all been guilty of isolating a stat and then conflating it to conveniently validate a foregone conclusion but right now let's just look at the 2-7 collapse to end the season. 

Without running the numbers, just off the top of my head the defense has averaged giving up 19 points a game.

The Jets with 2 different QB's (and Streveler for a series or two) failed to match that.

You can't blame the QB entirely for that considering the fact that our offense is always playing catch up.

I blame the OC for that. The Jets offense has scored I think 1 TD on it's opening drive.

Once!

His red zone play calling is enough to fire him.

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13 minutes ago, peebag said:

It's kind of funny but ever notice that when the injuries mounted on the OL that the offensive output tended to grind to a halt.

Like when they rushed for 174 yards in week 9? or 158 in week 12 vs the Bears? or 120 vs the Vikings in week 13? The fact is the run game could be there but MiLF has no commitment to the run game  -- except on first down, that dude loves to run the ball on first down. 

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1 hour ago, AL047 said:

Why is everyone blaming Offensive Coordinator Mike LaFleur for Zach Wilson's failure??? (Please Explain)

Please remember Mike White came out of Western Kentucky in 2017 and was drafted by the Dallas Cowboys in round five in 2018 and was later cut by the team. The Jets picked him up in 2019 and in 2021 replaced Zach Wilson who was injured against New England. Since then, White has shown flashes at QB, while Wilson has not!!!

Both Wilson and White have learned the same system from Offensive Coordinator Mike LaFleur. It seems Mike White picked up the offense system better than Wilson. Both played with the same offensive line problems!!! Same WRs and TE's!!! But Mike White has a better grasp of the offensive system than Zach Wilson!!!

IMO can't blame LaFleur for Zach Wilson's failure!!!

Teams have done their homework on the Jets!!!! They know the Jets have no running threat at all and are one dimensional. They also know Wilson running ability out of the pocket and they eliminated that with the ILB tracking him sideline to sideline. They know also the offensive line is the biggest weakness, so defenses are having a field day blitzing all day at both Wilson and White. But the other main weakness are the corners coverage of Davis, Moore, and Mims, they are completely taken out of games. 

Again, how is LaFleur to blame???

 

Respectfully, I think you're completely missing the point. The reason why Mike White has done better than Zach is EXACTLY the reason why MLF has failed as a coach. He is a system coach and can not adjust to players that don't perfectly fit into that system. If you don't think this coaching staff isn't the reason why Zach has regressed I don't know what to say. Zach has more physical talent but is a player that doesn't perfectly fit the only system MLF knows. He never adjusted to Zach and has never developed a QB in his life. To entrust this job to a rookie OC was beyond foolish and now we're surprised it was an abject failure. You don't get rid of a kid like Zach with incredible physical skills instead of a rookie OC that is in way over his head. 

I think there are two main issue here:

1. Why did they pick Zach if his skill set was so different than the offense they were going to run?

2. Why did they pick a rookie OC when the coach was a defensive guy and also a rookie and Zach was their most important asset? (I know they tragically lost Greg Knapp, but he wasn't going to be OC)

Both make no sense to me.

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You have to really watch the route concepts to see how mlf fails, a lot of the times he has the receivers running 30 yards down the field which gives the line a hard time blocking for 4 seconds, a lot of his receivers are always in the same vacinity, he leaves one check down running back behind the los for a safety net and negative yards.

mike white is praised so good but failed to make a line adjustment that sent a linebacker straight through the middle of the line to destroy him , mlf sucks, Mike white sucks, Zach Wilson GOAT 

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7 minutes ago, Greensleeves said:

Respectfully, I think you're completely missing the point. The reason why Mike White has done better than Zach is EXACTLY the reason why MLF has failed as a coach. He is a system coach and can not adjust to players that don't perfectly fit into that system. If you don't think this coaching staff isn't the reason why Zach has regressed I don't know what to say. Zach has more physical talent but is a player that doesn't perfectly fit the only system MLF knows. He never adjusted to Zach and has never developed a QB in his life. To entrust this job to a rookie OC was beyond foolish and now we're surprised it was an abject failure. You don't get rid of a kid like Zach with incredible physical skills instead of a rookie OC that is in way over his head. 

Yep, perfectly said. Everybody assumed M&M wanted out because of Zach. Maybe maybe not. LaFleur is like a poker  player  can only pull a pot with the nuts. 

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1 hour ago, AL047 said:

Why is everyone blaming Offensive Coordinator Mike LaFleur for Zach Wilson's failure??? (Please Explain)

Please remember Mike White came out of Western Kentucky in 2017 and was drafted by the Dallas Cowboys in round five in 2018 and was later cut by the team. The Jets picked him up in 2019 and in 2021 replaced Zach Wilson who was injured against New England. Since then, White has shown flashes at QB, while Wilson has not!!!

Both Wilson and White have learned the same system from Offensive Coordinator Mike LaFleur. It seems Mike White picked up the offense system better than Wilson. Both played with the same offensive line problems!!! Same WRs and TE's!!! But Mike White has a better grasp of the offensive system than Zach Wilson!!!

IMO can't blame LaFleur for Zach Wilson's failure!!!

Teams have done their homework on the Jets!!!! They know the Jets have no running threat at all and are one dimensional. They also know Wilson running ability out of the pocket and they eliminated that with the ILB tracking him sideline to sideline. They know also the offensive line is the biggest weakness, so defenses are having a field day blitzing all day at both Wilson and White. But the other main weakness are the corners coverage of Davis, Moore, and Mims, they are completely taken out of games. 

Again, how is LaFleur to blame???

 

Because if i see them line up in shotgun on 3 and 1 again i am going to break my tv.

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1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Hes not, hes a fantastic OC and did a wonderful job developing Zach

It isn't the OC's job to develop crappy QB's.

If anything, that would be a QB Coach's job, working with a backup or #3 QB.  #1 QB's picked 2nd in the draft shouldn't need "developed" to this degree. 

Nor should they need some sort of unicorn custom bespoke offense specially designed to hide their grotesque inaccuracy, lack of field vision or pocket presence, their slow witted mind and/or penchant for running around like a chicken without it's head...

1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

The lack of offense with or without Zach is not MLF's fault at all.

The fact the offense produced much more without Zach than with Zach over the totality of the last 2 years should indicate that at least in part, Wilson was the key weakness, not the offensive scheme itself.

MLF is far from innocent and far from perfect.  But it's also very hard to make a turd look like a rose.  And Zach Wilson is 100% a turd of a QB, so much so he is likely to go down in history as a top 10 all-time bust.  

But as is always the case with Jets QB's, some portion of our fanbase will keep dreaming he's really an elite stud, at least till he goes somewhere else and fails again, like Sanchez, Geno and Darnold all did (with Geno's one year of decent play 8 seasons later being the lone exception so far).

1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

If you think about it, 6 points against Seattle is quite good, with a competent QB and against a bottom 5 defense.

Mike White was atrocious.  Again, hard to make a turd look like a rose, and Mike White was a turd all day long vs. Seattle.  How much of that was from the ribs, we can only speculate, but his play in and of itself was horrific.

1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I think MLF should be signed to a 10 year extension, hes legit

Alot of folks will need to reconcile themselves that MLF isn't going to be fired this offseason.

Personally, I'd like to see MLF run an offense with someone other than Wilson and White for a season.  A Carr, Minshew, Mayfield, or Garrappolo type.  If he still sucks with a QB who isn't a bust or a JAG, then fire away.

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