The #1 pick and a QB are in play

[Green Ghost]

12 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Minshew's stock has to have dropped after his starts this year. Small sample size but 3TD \ 3INT and under 60% completion with one of the best teams in football. Great backup, and that is probably where the Jets will view him.

Don't think you can sell a Gardner \ Zach combo here next year.

Carr as the first option Baker as the 2nd is probably close. Unless Aaron Rodgers is the one, the other two are the 2 and 3.  I don't see Rodgers coming here to play for LaFleur though so you probably have to do something there.

Surprised you’re in on Rodgers. He would cost a lot, both in $$$ and draft capital.
I also thought both he and Brady took a step back this year.

 

[neckdemon]

8 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

Ask him how Josh Allen is working out. ?

josh allen isnt a running quarterback in the same vein as justin fields. 

[neckdemon]

8 hours ago, Larz said:

QB school guy loves fields.  @neckdemon loves being wrong ?

 

Watch it and I’ll drink your tears acceleration boy ???

in 2 years we will know who was right or who was wrong

[Irish Jet]

4 hours ago, Maxman said:

I think Mike White is gone. Zach will be the backup and a vet coming is coming to town.

If this is the plan they should all be fired.

Zach can never play for the Jets again.

[maury77]

4 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

You’re just blowing smoke Johnny.
You don’t like Fields. Just say it, nobody will think less of you.
After Darnold, nobody takes your QB takes seriously anyway.

Don’t forget he also said Zach was the best QB prospect he ever saw (I’m not making that up).

[derp]

9 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

The difference between fan opinion and scout opinions on Levis really intrigues me.

I haven’t seen top QB prospects so universally ridiculed since Allen and Herbert. Daniel Jones too but he wasn’t even that loved by scouts. 

Do you observe a difference between where he’s rated and how much folks like him, or what his weaknesses are perceived to be and why folks don’t like him?

[Green Ghost]

1 hour ago, neckdemon said:

josh allen isnt a running quarterback in the same vein as justin fields. 

In their first 2 seasons Allen ran for roughly 1200 yards. Fields has run for 1560. That’s not a big difference.

One thing I didn’t realize though was Fields ran for about 1100 yards this season in 15 games. Wow.

[Larz]

1 hour ago, neckdemon said:

in 2 years we will know who was right or who was wrong

[Irish Jet]

11 minutes ago, derp said:

Do you observe a difference between where he’s rated and how much folks like him, or what his weaknesses are perceived to be and why folks don’t like him?

I think a bit of both.

I there's a ton of upside and a lot of mitigating circumstances for the poor play. I can see why people love and hate him. I think there's a lot of mental work that needs to be done but the tools are there. Some coaches will back their ability to develop him and he'll go high. Probably top 5. 

[Green Ghost]

1 hour ago, maury77 said:

Don’t forget he also said Zach was the best QB prospect he ever saw (I’m not making that up).

Trust me, I remember.
Him and nico used to call me every name in the book for ragging on Darnold.

[More Cowbell]

11 hours ago, Rhg1084 said:

It’d be like 3 1st rd picks probably

It depends how far down Chicago will have to move down.  

[Warfish]

So what is the typical cost to move from ~13 to #1 overall.

[Irish Jet]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So what is the typical cost to move from ~13 to #1 overall.

The Rams went up from 15 in 2016.

Two 1sts, two 2nds & two 3rds.

Think they got a couple of mid round picks in return. 

[neckdemon]

17 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

In their first 2 seasons Allen ran for roughly 1200 yards. Fields has run for 1560. That’s not a big difference.

One thing I didn’t realize though was Fields ran for about 1100 yards this season in 15 games. Wow.

that stat isn't indicative of what is actually happening. justin fiels is playing the game as a rb who passes sometimes. josh allen plays the game as a qb who runs more often that usual. justin field more than doubled the number of runnign attempts he had from last year while passing less. they play a different style. josh allen's style will last longer than justin fields who will flame out within 2 years. i could be wrong, but the history of the game shows i am right. mike vick flamed out quickly (and he was actually more of a passer than fields is) and lamar jackson has also come way down (and he is also a better passer than field is). we will see what happens but i would bet money on justin fields having a short career

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

The Rams went up from 15 in 2016.

Two 1sts, two 2nds & two 3rds.

Think they got a couple of mid round picks in return. 

So is that a price we want to pay for Young or Stroud?

And what does such a massive loss of future draft capital do to our improvement going forward?

And will the staff and FO survive waiting for either guy to get good at the NFL level? 

Do we want JD and Saleh mortgaging the franchises future on one lottery ticket? When he and his coach may only get one season with the results of that ticket but the cost could live on for longer?  Especially for Young at only 6’0” tall?

[Irish Jet]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So is that a price we want to pay for Young or Stroud?

And what does such a massive loss of future draft capital do to our improvement going forward?

And will the staff and FO survive waiting for either guy to get good at the NFL level? 

It would only be for Young if we were going to #1. 

It would pretty much mean he has to be the guy or we're f*cked. 

The staff wont even consider this, or probably a QB in general for that very reason. They're under too much pressure to win now. 

[derp]

16 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

I think a bit of both.

I there's a ton of upside and a lot of mitigating circumstances for the poor play. I can see why people love and hate him. I think there's a lot of mental work that needs to be done but the tools are there. Some coaches will back their ability to develop him and he'll go high. Probably top 5. 

I agree he’ll likely go high. I think in addition to all of the other things that need to be trained on he struggles against pressure and a) I’m not sure how a coaching staff fixes that and b) I’ve had enough of a quarterback who struggles with pressure with Wilson. 

I also have zero faith in this coaching staff developing him. Thus, no thank you to Levis.

For what it’s worth I didn’t do a dive on Herbert since I didn’t expect the Jets to go QB, but I liked Allen and thought the knocks were unfair.

[TuscanyTile2]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So is that a price we want to pay for Young or Stroud?

And what does such a massive loss of future draft capital do to our improvement going forward?

And will the staff and FO survive waiting for either guy to get good at the NFL level? 

Supposedly Caleb Williams is the next "can't miss" prospect and he'll probably be in the draft after this coming season.  It'll probably be impossible to trade up for him but, if by some miracle a team with a QB is willing to trade the pick, we'd have to put everyone on the table.  (QW, Sauce, GW, Breece, AVT, multiple 1st rounders).

I feel like getting a FQB might be the only way to have sustained success.  All these young stars we have are great but we're not going to be able to pay them all in a couple of seasons so what's the point?  

[Augustiniak]

Just now, TuscanyTile2 said:

Supposedly Caleb Williams is the next "can't miss" prospect and he'll probably be in the draft after this coming season.  It'll probably be impossible to trade up for him but, if by some miracle a team with a QB is willing to trade the pick, we'd have to put everyone on the table.  (QW, Sauce, GW, Breece, AVT, multiple 1st rounders).

I feel like getting a FQB might be the only way to have sustained success.  All these young stars we have are great but we're not going to be able to pay them all in a couple of seasons so what's the point?  

That’s why you just keep drafting them.  Every year.  If guys like ruckert and mitchell pan out you don’t need to overpay in FA.  That’s why teams like the ravens have sustained success.  They don’t play Mosley b/c they don’t have to.  

Douglas would be wise to keep looking for value in the drafts.  OL/OLB rounds 1 and 2.  

[Green Ghost]

16 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

The Rams went up from 15 in 2016.

Two 1sts, two 2nds & two 3rds.

Think they got a couple of mid round picks in return. 

Jeez. Forget doing that. 

I’d still move up about 5-6 spots if I could get Stroud though.

[neckdemon]

21 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So what is the typical cost to move from ~13 to #1 overall.

the chart says about 1800 points (i know the chart is only a guide but at least it gives an idea) so the equivalent of the #4 pick about

[TuscanyTile2]

Just now, Augustiniak said:

That’s why you just keep drafting them.  Every year.  If guys like ruckert and mitchell pan out you don’t need to overpay in FA.  That’s why teams like the ravens have sustained success.  They don’t play Mosley b/c they don’t have to.  

Douglas would be wise to keep looking for value in the drafts.  OL/OLB rounds 1 and 2.  

I'm so down on this team right now.  Without a FQB, it's going to be almost impossible to compete in the AFC. 

[The Crusher]

52 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

In their first 2 seasons Allen ran for roughly 1200 yards. Fields has run for 1560. That’s not a big difference.

One thing I didn’t realize though was Fields ran for about 1100 yards this season in 15 games. Wow.

He seems to have gotten faster, like much faster since college. At least it looks that way. Also never realized how big he is, not Josh Allen big, but very substantial in his own right. If the y can find him his Stephon Diggs and he can make improvements to his passing game they got a good one I think. 
 

Wish we did. 

[Sammybighead]

6 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

You’re definitely confused, I’ll give you that. 

I know you think you’re scoring a ton of debate points with the two posts you’ve left for me, but I can only look at them and wonder how you can read what I said, and extrapolate it to what you have.
I’m not going to try to respond to it. I wouldn’t know how.  

 

11 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

If we can get Stroud by moving up only 4-5 spots, I’d actually prefer that.

 

10 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

The main point of the thread was how foolish the Texans winning today was. If they wanted a QB, now they’ll probably have to pay to swap places with the Bears. 
Im not crazy about Young either. My choice would be Stroud, and I’d be very open to move up early in the 1st to take him after Young goes off the board.

The other point was if we are really serious about contending for titles, we need to keep going to the QB well. It’s obviously hard to hit on the right one, bUt picking another OL in the 1st isn’t getting us there. You need the FQB.

 

Lol debate points. Isn't the whole point of an online message board to debate?

You say you would move up 4-5 spots for stroud. My point is (and this isn't directed at you alone but everyone in general) that we need to consider the ramifications of drafting another qb. You can't just say draft a qb every year till you find one.

Zach will be on this roster next year it seems based on everything they said. He's a developmental project taking up 10M of cap space and a valuable roster spot. Basically a sunk cost you're forced to carry. To trade up as you suggest would cost multiple 1sts but let's say we do that. Ok, we have a defense that's ready to win but we're entrusting this same regime to develop a qb which will at least take 2-3 years to be fair to the rookie. In that time, the defense gets older and you lose guys but you don't have as much draft capital to replace them because you traded it away.

So now that you've drafted the rookie, this time you gonna do right by him and sit him the first year. So you need to get a quality vet to at least start out the season. Grappalo or carr aren't coming here to be second fiddle to a rookie, not to mention they'd cost 30-40 M which means you'd have a combined 50-60 M tied up in qbs, one of which is a useless asset. Additionally, any solid vet will be very wary of our oline and since you traded away draft capital, you can't upgrade other than FA. Check the FA OTs list, not an inspiring crop. If you can't get carr or grappalo, you gotta role with white on the cheap or another cheap journeyman. So your 3 qbs will most likely be white/journeyman, rookie and useless zach, in that order to start the season.

For all these reasons, I don't see a trade up for a qb. Now if zach is traded, I think that can be in the mix but it's still complicated. In a vacuum, I actually agree with you. I hate retread qbs and would rather keep hoping we can draft and develop a star. But based on where the team is, the playoff mandate for this regime next season, and the holes/cap ramifications, I just can't see how you can draft a qb in 2023 draft. Again, my overall point is that it is very easy to say "draft a qb!", but we need to consider all aspects to doing so.

If you ask me today, the most logical solution for next year would be use cap space for Jimmy G/carr, have a non threatening backup like white or brisset or someone, spend top draft capital on an OT cause nobody in their right mind can rely on Becton and it sounds like brown is hurt/done as well. Not ideal, but I think a competent vet, with a decent oline, our weapons, our defense can get us in the playoffs finally. And then in 2024 when you can cut bait with zach, draft a qb and let him develop slowly behind a Jimmy g.

[JustInFudge]

10 hours ago, neckdemon said:

.because it happens to all the running quarterbacks and fields might be the worst passer of all of them

Passing TD % Idx

1.	Patrick Mahomes • KAN	124
2.	Tua Tagovailoa • MIA	123
3.	Josh Allen • BUF	122
4.	Dak Prescott • DAL	118
5.	Joe Burrow • CIN	117
6.	Justin Fields • CHI	112
7.	Jimmy Garoppolo • SFO	111
	Lamar Jackson • BAL	111
	Geno Smith • SEA

[The Crusher]

4 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

the chart says about 1800 points (i know the chart is only a guide but at least it gives an idea) so the equivalent of the #4 pick about

Unless we at least get rid of LaFleur and replace him with a guy that has had success with young QB’s.  Drafting  another rookie QB high like that would be like buying a quality thoroughbred racehorse and having him delivered directly to the glue factory, 

[Green Ghost]

4 minutes ago, Sammybighead said:

 

 

Lol debate points. Isn't the whole point of an online message board to debate?

You say you would move up 4-5 spots for stroud. My point is (and this isn't directed at you alone but everyone in general) that we need to consider the ramifications of drafting another qb. You can't just say draft a qb every year till you find one.

Zach will be on this roster next year it seems based on everything they said. He's a developmental project taking up 10M of cap space and a valuable roster spot. Basically a sunk cost you're forced to carry. To trade up as you suggest would cost multiple 1sts but let's say we do that. Ok, we have a defense that's ready to win but we're entrusting this same regime to develop a qb which will at least take 2-3 years to be fair to the rookie. In that time, the defense gets older and you lose guys but you don't have as much draft capital to replace them because you traded it away.

So now that you've drafted the rookie, this time you gonna do right by him and sit him the first year. So you need to get a quality vet to at least start out the season. Grappalo or carr aren't coming here to be second fiddle to a rookie, not to mention they'd cost 30-40 M which means you'd have a combined 50-60 M tied up in qbs, one of which is a useless asset. Additionally, any solid vet will be very wary of our oline and since you traded away draft capital, you can't upgrade other than FA. Check the FA OTs list, not an inspiring crop. If you can't get carr or grappalo, you gotta role with white on the cheap or another cheap journeyman. So your 3 qbs will most likely be white/journeyman, rookie and useless zach, in that order to start the season.

For all these reasons, I don't see a trade up for a qb. Now if zach is traded, I think that can be in the mix but it's still complicated. In a vacuum, I actually agree with you. I hate retread qbs and would rather keep hoping we can draft and develop a star. But based on where the team is, the playoff mandate for this regime next season, and the holes/cap ramifications, I just can't see how you can draft a qb in 2023 draft. Again, my overall point is that it is very easy to say "draft a qb!", but we need to consider all aspects to doing so.

If you ask me today, the most logical solution for next year would be use cap space for Jimmy G/carr, have a non threatening backup like white or brisset or someone, spend top draft capital on an OT cause nobody in their right mind can rely on Becton and it sounds like brown is hurt/done as well. Not ideal, but I think a competent vet, with a decent oline, our weapons, our defense can get us in the playoffs finally. And then in 2024 when you can cut bait with zach, draft a qb and let him develop slowly behind a Jimmy g.

TLDR

is there a clif note version available?

[JustInFudge]

No QB's are worth giving up picks to get in this draft.  I've been against this idea because he's so raw but seeing how this season unfolded and watching Wilson fizzle out and knowing there is no possible way you can bring him back into this environment and have him play in front of a fanbase that might actual attempt physical harm against him and understanding the landscape of the AFC at QB.....I'm taking Anthony Richardson and bringing in a bridge gap QB for the next 2 years while you develop the biggest freak to come out since Miles Garrett who happens to play QB.

 

 

[The Crusher]

2 minutes ago, JiFields said:

Passing TD % Idx

1.	Patrick Mahomes • KAN	124
2.	Tua Tagovailoa • MIA	123
3.	Josh Allen • BUF	122
4.	Dak Prescott • DAL	118
5.	Joe Burrow • CIN	117
6.	Justin Fields • CHI	112
7.	Jimmy Garoppolo • SFO	111
	Lamar Jackson • BAL	111
	Geno Smith • SEA

I’m starting to drift into the it doesn’t matter who we get at QB with LaFleur  still here wasteland. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, JiFields said:

No QB's are worth giving up picks to get in this draft.  I've been against but seeing how this season unfolded and watching Wilson fizzle out and knowing there is no possible way you can bring him back into this environment and have him play in front of a fanbase that might actual attempt physical harm against him, I'm taking Anthony Richardson and bringing in a bridge gap QB for the next 2 years while you develop the biggest freak to come out since Miles Garrett who happens to play QB.

 

 

You think an inherently inaccurate qb like Richardson would succeed here?

[JustInFudge]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

You think an inherently inaccurate qb like Richardson would succeed here?

Idk but he's such a freak of nature, I'd take him and give him 2 years sitting behind a; Andy Dalton, Jimmy G., Teddy B. - take your pick at the bridge QB, I dont really care who and let him sit and learn and get better and hope by the time he's ready to go, you've got a polished player. 

 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, JiFields said:

Idk but he's such a freak of nature, I'd take him and give him 2 years sitting behind a; Andy Dalton, Jimmy G., Teddy B. - take your pick at the bridge QB, I dont really care who and let him sit and learn and get better and hope by the time he's ready to go, you've got a polished player. 

 

When you whiff on the 2nd pick in the draft, you don’t have the luxury of drafting another qb in the mid first round 2 yrs later to sit him.  Douglas needs to keep hitting on those picks like he did last year, just to keep his job.  So expect a lunch pail draft this year, which is what the jets need.  Just keep adding good players and they’ll get a double boost with all the guys returning from injury.  

[hotrodcharlie]

You don’t need the no. 1 pick. Stay put and draft Anthony Richardson. let him develop, he’s a beast athlete 

2024 - pistol offense with Richardson, does it run it? Does he pitch it to Breece Hall with a moving head start? Does he pull it back and toss it deep to Garrett Wilson?

that’s a dynamic offense

[Warfish]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

When you whiff on the 2nd pick in the draft, you don’t have the luxury of drafting another qb in the mid first round 2 yrs later to sit him.  Douglas needs to keep hitting on those picks like he did last year, just to keep his job.  So expect a lunch pail draft this year, which is what the jets need.  Just keep adding good players and they’ll get a double boost with all the guys returning from injury.  

Lunch pail draft + best possible, most proven veteran QB available for $$.

That is what I’d expect.

OL, LB, DL in draft and some “has a resume of 4,000+ yard seasons in the NFL” veteran QB.

If we are resting JD and Saleh, then this is also the approach I’d agree with.

[Sammybighead]

18 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

TLDR

is there a clif note version available?

No