Lafleur has NOT been fired!! (merged title references unsubstantiated claim. please refrain from hilarious parody threads)

[JTJet]

2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Of all the things i've maybe disagreed with or questioned you on -- this is the opposite. What we saw this year (the negatives/inconsistencies/arbitrary decision making) 1000% could be correlated or symptomatic if you will, of poor leadership in the capacity that you described. I see this everyday at work. It's my job to untangled leadership knots and baseline teams that have cannabilized each other over ambiguity w/ accountability, structure and coaching.

Woody -- hire me. I'm batting 1.000

Yep. 100%. 

Same here. All I do these days is essentially build teams and analyze/repair broken teams and systems. 

Many things that were warning signs. The whole QB depth chart each week was a huge red flag, the mims/moore situations, the miscues in press conferences regarding player injuries, the sideline blowup with Q and Coach Whitecotton, Garrett Wilson's comments, I could go on and on.

[BP]

2 minutes ago, JTJet said:

I have quite literally managed thousands of people in various forms. 

Leaders do not act in this way. I know this for a very specific reason, I myself have BEEN a sh*tty leader before. 

It took years of doing it the wrong way, and then working for someone who showed me how to be better, so I have a very keen eye for this type of stuff, which is why Saleh comes off as a salesman that's in over his head. 

It's very easy to dissect that he lost control of what's going on and/or never had control of it to begin with. In my opinion he is a great second in command type, but not THE guy. Being the guy requires making very difficult decisions which Saleh has proven he cannot do.

Couldn’t agree more. And when you manage people you can’t be everybody’s friend and buddy or they’ll (the majority of them) take advantage of you. 
 

He had to come in and earn the players respect and come in with a plan. He’s got no plan lol it’s obvious by his pressers “gotta get better” “gotta look at the film”<~~~ that’s a gase saying.

 

Here is the bigger problem, who actually hired saleh? If it was Douglas I’d like to know wtf he talked about during the hiring process. If it was woody I am not surprised, he’s a typical woody hire. Tow the line, kiss ass and be rah rah rah guy on the sidelines.

[Barton]

Mike White played well. And he did this in spite of this coaching staff and backup Oline. Imagine him with a real staff and better personnel. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

Let's recap how we got here with LaFleur, ZW, and the QB coaches:

1)  Knapp dies tragically

2)  Regroup, ponder, hire Matt Cavanaugh

3) Zach is still flailing so (quietly) add John Beck midseason to hold his hand;  send LaFleur upstairs to the booth, where he feels more comfortable

4) Zach's mechanics, pocket awareness, football IQ still suck heading into year 2, yet don't replace Cavanaugh with a proven QB coach

#4 is the one that really makes no sense at all.  Calabrese isn't exactly an established QB guru.

Has Mike LaFleur ever coached the QB position at any level?  IIRC, he was mainly a WRs coach in SF, no?

LaFleur had enough on his plate trying to teach / coordinate the offense, game plan, and figuring out how to call plays that have a chance at working. 

He was never going to be able to wear the additional hat of holding ZW's feet to the fire in terms of his mechanics and everything else.

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

If they aren’t even coaching him how do you know if he’s not any good?  This sounds like inexcusable management at a Taco Bell.  

You can’t down-coach a QB who can be The Man into an utter incompetent. He doesn’t have what it takes temperamentally or mentally to make it as a successful QB1. It happens.

Maybe after ten years he will be OK. Maybe. But why wait for that?

[Hal N of Provo]

1 minute ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Let's recap how we got here with LaFleur, ZW, and the QB coaches:

1)  Knapp dies tragically

2)  Regroup, ponder, hire Matt Cavanaugh

3) Zach is still flailing so (quietly) add John Beck midseason to hold his hand;  send LaFleur upstairs to the booth, where he feels more comfortable

4) Zach's mechanics, pocket awareness, football IQ still suck heading into year 2, yet don't replace Cavanaugh with a proven QB coach

#4 is the one that really makes no sense at all.  Calabrese isn't exactly an established QB guru.

Has Mike LaFleur ever coached the QB position at any level?  IIRC, he was mainly a WRs coach in SF, no?

LaFleur had enough on his plate trying to teach / coordinate the offense, game plan, and figuring out how to call plays that have a chance at working. 

He was never going to be able to wear the additional hat of holding ZW's feet to the fire in terms of his mechanics and everything else.

And also MLF thought Zach was ready like a vet to start year 1.   They don’t know what they are doing.  Saleh should have been enough of a leader to see that the O staff was lost and fix it.  
 

But they say he’s digging in and trying to protect MLF?!? 

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

If they aren’t even coaching him how do you know if he’s not any good?  This sounds like inexcusable management at a Taco Bell.  

I know he’s not good because he sucks and nobody likes him. #analytics

[SickJetFan]

26 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

On the other hand, it sounds like LaFleur was the only one in the org trying to institute any sort of discipline. I look at it as a strong positive that a fat piece of sh*t like Becton would be liking a tweet celebrating his firing. Where was Saleh in all this? Hiding behind CJ Mosley?

dont mess with Becton anymore..he is off limits......he is on my good list now and is the future LT regardless of who coach is!

Also, just as an aside, I want this plan they coming up with to include more power gap scheme.  thank you.

 

[BP]

MLF: Zach should have sat last year

Saleh: Zach won the job last year

 

 

[Hal N of Provo]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

You can’t down-coach a QB who can be The Man into an utter incompetent. He doesn’t have what it takes temperamentally or mentally to make it as a successful QB1. It happens.

Maybe after ten years he will be OK. Maybe. But why wait for that?

A rookie QB absolutely needs good coaching and they can be held back.  If you get a good QB coach in here you can find out what you have. 

 

-

[SickJetFan]

26 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

If I’m the owner and this is the plan these shmucks presented to me, I’d have closed the blinds and fired every one of them on the spot. This is not how a functional team operates, and I’d be so unsettled by this offer I would just go offer Sean Payton an ownership stake while Douglas and Saleh packed their sh*t

thats what I been talking about...even started a thread on it weeks ago

[Hal N of Provo]

Just now, BP said:

MLF: Zach should have sat last year

Saleh: Zach won the job last year

 

 

It’s not wrong.  And then Zach got worse while playing.   And Mike Whjte got worse while playing.   Hmmmmm.  

[Saul Goodman]

Jets should move swiftly on this. I can’t imagine there’s much more internal discussion or debate to be had. Either fire the guy and start the search or announce that he’s returning. This is turning into a circus. 

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

And also MLF thought Zach was ready like a vet to start year 1.   They don’t know what they are doing.  Saleh should have been enough of a leader to see that the O staff was lost and fix it.  
 

But they say he’s digging in and trying to protect MLF?!? 

The hen can’t sit on a rotten egg to make it fresh. The guy doesn’t have it. He just does not. Even if the coaches aren’t up to the task they are not instructing him to retreat from pressure and throw bounce passes. He’s as skittish as an inbred dog in a thunder storm. That’s not nurture; that is nature.

[T0mShane]

6 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Let's recap how we got here with LaFleur, ZW, and the QB coaches:

1)  Knapp dies tragically

2)  Regroup, ponder, hire Matt Cavanaugh

3) Zach is still flailing so (quietly) add John Beck midseason to hold his hand;  send LaFleur upstairs to the booth, where he feels more comfortable

4) Zach's mechanics, pocket awareness, football IQ still suck heading into year 2, yet don't replace Cavanaugh with a proven QB coach

#4 is the one that really makes no sense at all.  Calabrese isn't exactly an established QB guru.

Has Mike LaFleur ever coached the QB position at any level?  IIRC, he was mainly a WRs coach in SF, no?

LaFleur had enough on his plate trying to teach / coordinate the offense, game plan, and figuring out how to call plays that have a chance at working. 

He was never going to be able to wear the additional hat of holding ZW's feet to the fire in terms of his mechanics and everything else.

I think this goes too far. He’s an immature rich kid from Utah with personality issues whose reps seemingly negotiated a sweetheart deal to come in and usurp a new, sh*tty coaching staff’s authority from day one. Now he’s ruined and the entire project is on DEFCON 4 because of the accommodations they made to a kid quarterback who’s melted down under the bright lights. 

[dbatesman]

28 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

On the other hand, it sounds like LaFleur was the only one in the org trying to institute any sort of discipline. 

The guy who didn’t tell Zach he was doing anything wrong until after the first Pats game?

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

A rookie QB absolutely needs good coaching and they can be held back.  If you get a good QB coach in here you can find out what you have. 

 

-

Yes they can be held back but again a guy with the goods to be The Man cannot be held back to look like he’s never held a football before.

[BP]

3 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

It’s not wrong.  And then Zach got worse while playing.   And Mike Whjte got worse while playing.   Hmmmmm.  

My point is they’re not even on the same page. It’s comical 

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, BP said:

MLF: Zach should have sat last year

Saleh: Zach won the job last year

 

 

Sham QB competitions are a Jets August tradition.

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think this goes too far. He’s an immature rich kid from Utah with personality issues whose reps seemingly negotiated a sweetheart deal to come in and usurp a new, sh*tty coaching staff’s authority from day one. Now he’s ruined and the entire project is on DEFCON 4 because of the accommodations they made to a kid quarterback who’s melted down under the bright lights. 

I see it at work all the time. Kids who have been insulated from criticism and honest feedback their entire lives melt down at the first setback or negative review. I’ve had parents call me to try to run interference for their sons and daughters that I treated on the level.

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

The guy who didn’t tell Zach he was doing anything wrong until after the first Pats game?

I’m not going to play source-truther here, but do we really believe that Mike LaFleur never told Zach Wilson that he wasn’t running his offense correctly? I believe that there were a bunch of arbitrary and ineffective swings at holding people accountable, and I believe that there was an organizational edict to be nice to Zach Wilson, but I refuse to believe that no one told him that the things he was doing were bad. Taken in conjunction with Steve Young’s LaFleur “tough love” assertion, it sounds like Saleh left LaFleur on an island when it came to disciplining Zach Wilson, LaFleur, Mims, Becton, etc. Tough way to do business when you’re middle management.

[chirorob]

7 minutes ago, BP said:

MLF: Zach should have sat last year

Saleh: Zach won the job last year

 

 

Those 2 quotes right there told me volumes about how dysfunctional the staff is.

I don't manage hundreds of people, I manage 5.  But after 20 years, I at least know what I'm doing with that, and like someone (I think you actually) you can not lead and be everyone's friend.  I am not anyone's friend.  I treat my people very well, they like working here, and when they mess up, they hear about it as soon as the room empties.

No yelling, no belittling, simply, "you did this wrong.  I want it done like this, not that."

It took my about 12 weeks this season, but I agree, Saleh is a salesman, a talker.   Not a leader.

[Matt39]

24 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

But what if you were given your money without working for it and you don’t know how to work and create something from nothing?  Poor Woody   

I’m beginning to wonder if the Saleh Detroit interviews being awful were true.

RS ”we are just going to fake it until we make it.”  

Det “Ain’t that that the truth, but what specifically are you going to do” 

RS “full effort, full time” 

Det“uh huh, so what is your plan” 

RS “run the ball and control the game.  No gain without pain.”

Det “How” 

RS “With violence and brutality.  And teamwork.  I’m big into culture.” 

Det “Thank you for your time.”

RS ugh!!!! I need better slogans!!!   

This is good. Who are the coaches the Jets have interviewed in their last couple of hiring cycles who have gone on to get jobs elsewhere? Do they exist?

[Barton]

Mike White.

[jgb]

Just now, Matt39 said:

This is good. Who are the coaches the Jets have interviewed in their last couple of hiring cycles who have gone on to get jobs elsewhere? Do they exist?

Rhule, McCarthy, Daboll immediately spring to mind. They didn’t even reach out to Doug Pedersen who ironically could’ve maximized BYU’s potential — such as it is.

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’m not going to play source-truther here, but do we really believe that Mike LaFleur never told Zach Wilson that he wasn’t running his offense correctly? I believe that there were a bunch of arbitrary and ineffective swings at holding people accountable, and I believe that there was an organizational edict to be nice to Zach Wilson, but I refuse to believe that no one told him that the things he was doing were bad. Taken in conjunction with Steve Young’s LaFleur “tough love” assertion, it sounds like Saleh left LaFleur on an island when it came to disciplining Zach Wilson, LaFleur, Mims, Becton, etc. Tough way to do business when you’re middle management.

“Why me? Why now?”

[BP]

2 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Those 2 quotes right there told me volumes about how dysfunctional the staff is.

I don't manage hundreds of people, I manage 5.  But after 20 years, I at least know what I'm doing with that, and like someone (I think you actually) you can not lead and be everyone's friend.  I am not anyone's friend.  I treat my people very well, they like working here, and when they mess up, they hear about it as soon as the room empties.

No yelling, no belittling, simply, "you did this wrong.  I want it done like this, not that."

It took my about 12 weeks this season, but I agree, Saleh is a salesman, a talker.   Not a leader.

Agree 100%

 

and when somebody needs their pee pee slapped you do it behind closed doors one on one. That right there earns respect.

[hotrodcharlie]

I feel a little for LaFleur. He was saddled with that crappy ass QB, it is not his fault

Getting it from both ends too. The players are pissed he stuck with Zach Wilson, the owners box is pressuring him  to stick with Wilson 

[jgb]

19 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I know he’s not good because he sucks and nobody likes him. #analytics

The surgeon who tells you she needs to remove a suspicious mass is a cell hater who wants the body to fail.

[T0mShane]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

I see it at work all the time. Kids who have been insulated from criticism and honest feedback their entire lives melt down at the first setback or negative review. I’ve had parents call me to try to run interference for their sons and daughters that I treated honestly and on the level.

+1. Not to be all old-man “back in my dayyyyy” guy, but what I’ve noticed with my younger associates is that they start out thinking that project leadership is collaborative and their input is not only invited, but necessary. In theory, I can see the value in creating that environment, but in an NFL setting, where time frames are ultra-compressed, there’s no space or time for that bullsh*t, especially with a player who legitimately sucks. If Justin Jefferson or Josh Allen wants to offer some input into the plays they feel comfortable running, that’s one thing. But Zach ******* Wilson? I’d break a tablet over his head. 

[chirorob]

1 minute ago, BP said:

Agree 100%

and when somebody needs their pee pee slapped you do it behind closed doors one on one. That right there earns respect.

Yes, I have never corrected staff in front of patients, it's always in the back.   I will tell staff I made a mistake, not them, in front of patients.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, hotrodcharlie said:

I feel a little for LaFleur. He was saddled with that crappy ass QB, it is not his fault

Getting it from both ends too. The players are pissed he stuck with Zach Wilson, the owners box is pressuring him  to stick with Wilson 

He pays for JD’s sins. Messiah LaFleur.

[hotrodcharlie]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

He pays for JD’s sins. Messiah LaFleur.

Yes I mean seriously how is Joe Douglas getting a pass here. He is very flawed as a GM I am deeply concerned 

[jgb]

Just now, T0mShane said:

+1. Not to be all old-man “back in my dayyyyy” guy, but what I’ve noticed with my younger associates is that they start out thinking that project leadership is collaborative and their input is not only invited, but necessary. In theory, I can see the value in creating that environment, but in an NFL setting, where time frames are ultra-compressed, there’s no space or time for that bullsh*t, especially with a player who legitimately sucks. If Justin Jefferson or Josh Allen wants to offer some input into the plays they feel comfortable running, that’s one thing. But Zach ******* Wilson? I’d break a tablet over his head. 

Someone asked Bernard Shaw what, in his opinion, is the most beautiful thing in this world.

“Youth,” he replied, “is the most beautiful thing in this world—and what a pity that it has to be wasted on children!”

[T0mShane]

11 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Those 2 quotes right there told me volumes about how dysfunctional the staff is.

I don't manage hundreds of people, I manage 5.  But after 20 years, I at least know what I'm doing with that, and like someone (I think you actually) you can not lead and be everyone's friend.  I am not anyone's friend.  I treat my people very well, they like working here, and when they mess up, they hear about it as soon as the room empties.

No yelling, no belittling, simply, "you did this wrong.  I want it done like this, not that."

It took my about 12 weeks this season, but I agree, Saleh is a salesman, a talker.   Not a leader.

The hardest, and last, thing you learn as a leader is how to administer disciple in a productive manner. Every new coach ****s it up on their first go-round, and it’s always the thing they cite as their downfall after they get fired.