LaFleur and Jets part ways

[TuscanyTile2]

10 hours ago, Averagejetsfan1421 said:

Zach Wilson regressed. 
Michael Carter regressed. 
Elijah Moore regressed. 
Braxton Barrios regressed. 
Pro Bowler Laken Tomlinson regressed. 
Mims never developed. 
Didn’t utilize either of the 2 FA TEs. 
No TDs the final 3 games. 

Totally not Mike LaFleur’s fault ??

The offense did much better in the non-ZW games the past 2 years.  Though when MFW was hurt, it wasn't the same obviously.

And while I fully agree with most of your list, you don't think he used Conklin?

[Irish Jet]

5 minutes ago, Biggs said:

The pocket.   The same pocket that killed Mike White and destroyed Joe Flacco.   Zach was bad but the pocket?   What pocket?   The Jets interior OL was complete trash after AVT went down.

And despite actually getting to play some games with AVT - Zach Wilson got sacked on 8.7% of his dropbacks compared to 4.9% of White.

The line was bad. But Zach made it even worse. He's irredeemable. 

[Charlie Brown]

8 hours ago, JETS SB said:

It’s interesting that JETS FANS that still hold out hope that Zach can be fixed, are attacked and bullied by people that hate the guy, but when facts are provided that Mike White and Joe Flacco failed just as much with the same offensive coordinator, we are somehow idiots and are bullied to “STFU”.
 

i have chosen to ignore the racist attacks on me (I am black) and portrayal of Zach as being afraid of black people. (I was banned previously but these racists remain mainly because they have 20,000 posts and must be a decent person) But that’s for another day. 

Maybe I am an idiot for holding out hope for Zach, but I have never seen a young QB attacked to this extent and call me whatever names you want, ban me if that’s what it takes to shut me up, but I am allowed my opinion. Reality is, he probably won’t make it here, but those that don’t see the train wreck our offense  was both with and without Zach, I don’t know what to say.  If that’s not the OC’s fault, then fire all of them. Start over. 
 

But a word of advise. You may not like what I have to say, and I may not like what you have to say, but bullying people because you are the majority, shows what you are. 

 

Hey

I have not been following the back and forth concerning your posts but no one is permitted or should be permitted to say anything concerning race or gender out here and if there is a problem just hit me up or any moderators out here.

This is a good place to discuss the Jets for a reason and isn’t  IMO by accident.

[Biggs]

2 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

And despite actually getting to play some games with AVT - Zach Wilson got sacked on 8.7% of his dropbacks compared to 4.9% of White.

The line was bad. But Zach made it even worse. He's irredeemable. 

Common opponent the Bills.  Wilson was sacked twice and had a QBR of 101.  White was sacked 3 times, left the game and had a 78.6 QBR.  Replaced by Flacco 1 sack fumble 42.4 QBR.  

[TuscanyTile2]

6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This is the perfect time to bring in an experienced OC, before getting into which one, but there are recently-fired offensive-side HCs, and OCs from any just-fired HC's staff, though admittedly I haven't taken a hard look at the list myself (not like I'm doing the hiring anyway lol).

Just generically, it's needed now because the GM and/or owner (if Woody wants to get further involved) will then have a viable option should they decide Saleh needs to go during the season. 

Bring in an OC with plenty of experience, including as HC. He brings in new position coaches on offense - QBC, WRC, RBC in particular - with whom he's very familiar, ideally. Then if a change needs to happen pick the best & most experienced of the 3 to take over as OC (at least in name) if the OC gets promoted to HC midseason.

Saleh won't like it from a job security standpoint on paper, and technically the offensive position coaches are still all his staff not the OC's staff so he may see to it this doesn't happen, but for the team rather than for the HC personally this is what should happen.

First move to correct a ludicrously under-experienced staff that wasn't exactly handed Peyton Manning from his late 20s to be the QB.

I get you're looking at this year (rather than in the past) but 2 years ago (when we drafted ZW) it would've made sense to have an experienced OC.  This year, we'll probably bring in an experienced QB so we probably could've succeeded with a young OC.  

If we need to fire Saleh in-season, we're screwed anyway.  Is there any example of an NFL HC being fired mid-season and the replacement leading the team on a deep run in post-season?  I can't think of any in the NFL (though I can think of examples in the maybe all of the other sports).

While I had issues with MLF, I feel like Jet fans always have an issue with their OC.  It's difficult to name the last one that Jet fans generally approved of.  

[JustInFudge]

13 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

Makes sense

This screams, Zach is our starter next year, and the conversation probably was quick:

Saleh - yo homey, we rolling w/ Zach next year, you really want to coach him?  Which was a simple, "hell no" and Saleh said, "yep, I get it, I'd bounce if I were you too but I'm being forced to play this dweeb, I love you, god speed". 

 

[Averagejetsfan1421]

26 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

The offense did much better in the non-ZW games the past 2 years.  Though when MFW was hurt, it wasn't the same obviously.

And while I fully agree with most of your list, you don't think he used Conklin?

The offense didn’t do that much better without Zach, we scored 0 touchdowns in 3 games without him, maybe lafail gave Mike white more freedom to change plays since he’s been in the league longer, but he only looked good in 1 game maybe 2 

he was inconsistent with the usage of tight ends, I thought Conklin could be the next hockinson, and uzomah just seems super slow and fat this year, that could be the reason there respective teams let them go, 

[tfine]

Nice. Now get an established offensive mind in here!


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Bugg]

8 hours ago, peekskill68 said:

You could be right on this, but it makes no sense for JD to cut bait with Zach this soon.  The risk/reward is heavily skewed towards sticking with Zach and hoping for improvement vs. starting over. He really had no choice but to fire LaFleur and bring someone else in to try and develop him.  The real pinch point comes after next season and declaring the 5th year option.  If Zach's still garbage, JD likely will trade him like he did with Darnold.  Whether he gets to draft another QB will ultimately be up to Woody.

There is no reward because Wilson is totally worthless. There's no fixing this. They f___ed up, and badly. 

Course of action should have been deal with Darnold's almost average QBing  for another year or 2, trade down, take Sewell or Parsons, and right now this team is in the playoffs. Alas, can't change any of that. 

Joe Douglas is looking at going back to his nights as a scout sleeping in crappy hotels and bad coffee at interstate rest stops in the southeast a whole bunch starting January 2024 if this team  doesn't make the playoffs. Which is why being Jimmy Garapolo's agent is going to be such a fun job through the first week in March. The prospect of unemployment tends to focus one's mind on  the most needful of things. 

Seriously, if Douglas and Saleh think they can win with Wilson, sell that to a new "Senior Offensive Assistant", to say nothing of this fan base, they will be fired first week in January 2024. 

[choon328]

11 hours ago, DireJet said:

I really don’t get what happened with MLF. He was wildly creative last year and showed flashes this year moving the football w/non-ZW QBs. And then he just completely shutdown over the final quarter of the season. Something must have happened bc he called the most vanilla garbage I’ve ever seen. We’ll find out eventually. 

I think the offensive line injuries is what did this offense in. Teams were run blitzing every down and the only WR who can beat man press was Garrett.  I don't think it's been said enough but the Jets need a WR opposite Wilson that can beat man press, we don't currently have that player on the team. 

[choon328]

11 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Don’t know but I’ve heard lots of players say, I don’t know or I’m hopeful to be ready for camp.  There’s always the tried and true I’m on schedule, following our timeline, etc 

Even if he makes it back for camp it takes at least a year for them to get back into form. I wouldn't expect Hall to be the same player next year that he was this year. 

[bonkertons]

Wouldn't this be one of the most unattractive jobs for an established OC?  I'd imagine the only guys you'd get would be outcasts from the league with dated philosophies.  I mean, there are some nice young playmakers but overall:  you have a young QB you'll be tasked with salvaging, you have an OL that was in shambles this year(granted health and an offseason investment should drastically improve it), and you're coming into a situation where - if the team fails next year - the HC is on the hot seat and will probably be fired.  Wouldn't the new HC then want to bring in his own staff? 

[choon328]

10 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

Yep. Joe Douglas wants Zach to be the starting QB next year.

I took so much sh*t for weeks saying that JD was putting his ego in front of winning and forcing Salehs hand into playing Wilson when White was "hurt". Remember how White magically got better after 2 weeks of Wilson misery? You all still believe White couldn't have played? JD saw an opportunity to get Wilson back out there and was able to use the injury excuse in order to not get blow back from it. And it worked on most of you. That sh*t is PR 101. JD is selfish and my entire outlook on him has changed. 

[choon328]

10 hours ago, FactsOnly said:

What is this idiot talking about 

major yardage LMFAO they haven’t scored a touchdown in 3 games

MIKE WHITE HAD 0 TDs AND 4 PICKS WITH A 60 RATING YOU NITWIT!!!

Someone needs to make this dude disappear from the board for a while. All he does is troll.

[bonkertons]

7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Preface: I'm very happy MLF isn't the OC anymore. Too many young faces under a non-offense HC who's only experience in this capacity is with the Jets anyway. Whatever combination of Wilson, a new veteran, new draftee, return of MW, etc. things weren't working under him, and the playcalling was maddening too often. I get sometimes you have to run the ball even when it's not working, just so the D doesn't have the easy job of knowing what's coming every snap, but you'd think he had such success on 1st down runs up the gut, or failing to take shots on 2nd & 1, in favor of a short-yardage type play purely to get a new set of downs, and piss away the best passing down he could. Plus despite all that forced running of the ball, the bewildering lack of using that by calling some playaction passes while the D isn't purely leaning back to key on the pass. That said...

So many of the rest were rookies & 2nd year drafted players - higher picks at that - that any OC will get blame for the players' failures & no credit for their successes (deeming any success based on a good prospect's innate ability, no matter who the OC happened to be). 

Whether or not one wants to attribute it to Lafleur's 2021 arrival, this just is factually untrue, FactsOnly.  

1. Until he got injured (and wasn't ever really 100% in 2022) I'd say under LaFleur there was a visible improvement from George Fant.

2. Mike White was cut by Dallas, was a borderline practice squad QB who was relegated to duking it out with a 4th round rookie bust for his roster spot before & when LaFleur got here. Then under Lafleur he was viewed as somewhere between a solid backup to a borderline (if not outright) starter. 

3. McGovern was utter garbage in 2020 and may very well have been cut if not for his 2nd guaranteed season. He had a massive and visible improvement in 2021 in Lafleur's first year.

4. AVT had just a so-so rookie season on balance, for all the kvelling over him at the time. He let a lot of rushers through or push him back. Big improvement in year 2.

5. Berrios upped his dollars not just because of a late-season kick return, but by having a knack for getting open quickly in 2021. That wasn't his career trajectory prior to 2021.

Is this enough? Not even close. There was a greater number of players who also got worse during his time here. That group would further include most of the players I just mentioned from 2021 to 2022 (really, everyone except AVT)! 

Not to mention a kid who just set our rookie receiving record, and another who was on pace to set our rookie rushing record before going down.  I mean, if he takes blame for Zach sucking, he should get some credit for these other kids succeeding.  

[choon328]

10 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Agree to disagree. It's a great opportunity for any off cooord. Saleh let's them run the show and will get all the credit in the world.

My money is on established guy.

It's a terrible job IF the front office is dead set on starting Wilson, which I think is likely. I would assume if that happens the front office  and coaching staff will be fired after next year along with the new OC. I wouldn't touch this job with a 10 for pole until the Jets got a starting caliber QB. 

[choon328]

9 hours ago, JETS SB said:

It’s interesting that JETS FANS that still hold out hope that Zach can be fixed, are attacked and bullied by people that hate the guy, but when facts are provided that Mike White and Joe Flacco failed just as much with the same offensive coordinator, we are somehow idiots and are bullied to “STFU”.
 

i have chosen to ignore the racist attacks on me (I am black) and portrayal of Zach as being afraid of black people. (I was banned previously but these racists remain mainly because they have 20,000 posts and must be a decent person) But that’s for another day. 

Maybe I am an idiot for holding out hope for Zach, but I have never seen a young QB attacked to this extent and call me whatever names you want, ban me if that’s what it takes to shut me up, but I am allowed my opinion. Reality is, he probably won’t make it here, but those that don’t see the train wreck our offense  was both with and without Zach, I don’t know what to say.  If that’s not the OC’s fault, then fire all of them. Start over. 
 

But a word of advise. You may not like what I have to say, and I may not like what you have to say, but bullying people because you are the majority, shows what you are. 

 

Actual Jets fans don't like people who are only fans of certain players but make pretend they're Jets fans as well. We didn't like the Tebow people and we don't like the Wilson only fans either. 

As Jets fans our goal is to win, whether that's with Zach or Mickey Mouse the majority of us don't care. It's guys like you who have a Zach Wilson agenda and could care less about the Jets organization that create the divisiveness on this site. So maybe, just maybe, bring your ass back to whatever hole you came out of and leave so actual fans of the Jets can have reasonable, civilized discussions about the future of the Jets. Thanks. 

[Jet Nut]

23 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Even if he makes it back for camp it takes at least a year for them to get back into form. I wouldn't expect Hall to be the same player next year that he was this year. 

Sometimes.  And sometimes not.  Doesn’t always take that extra year to come back.  You have Saquan and you have AP.  
Let’s hope Breece is more AP

[Green Ghost]

8 hours ago, maury77 said:

The Jets are doomed. Douglas has to go. 

If this next season plays out the way I think it will (him wanting Zach to be the QB) it will be the end of him and Saleh.

Pride goeth before the fall

[More Cowbell]

I just found out about this this morning so I haven't  read all the posts but this sounds like someone has stuck his nose where it doesn't  belong and now probably MLF knowing other teams are asking about him figured this is as good a time as any to jump ship and work for a different organization  with a normal QB situation and an OL not made up of UPS loading dock workers. 

My gut is telling me Woody is looking for someone to take the fall for having 2 top prospects (Sam and Zach) not develop and for the collapse down the stretch.  MLF was the easy target. To be honest,  all three phases took turns in losing games. 

[jgb]

14 hours ago, T0mShane said:

There were those who wanted Zach Wilson to keep playing football (Steve Young, Joe Douglas) and everybody else (rest of the roster, Zach Wilson)

You can also put Joe Flacco in the former camp 

[Dcat]

5 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Actual Jets fans don't like people who are only fans of certain players but make pretend they're Jets fans as well. We didn't like the Tebow people and we don't like the Wilson only fans either. 

As Jets fans our goal is to win, whether that's with Zach or Mickey Mouse the majority of us don't care. It's guys like you who have a Zach Wilson agenda and could care less about the Jets organization that create the divisiveness on this site. So maybe, just maybe, bring your ass back to whatever hole you came out of and leave so actual fans of the Jets can have reasonable, civilized discussions about the future of the Jets. Thanks. 

And then there are also the ones who use every and any opportunity to reign fire down on the team for every action or inaction by the team (granted, the team gives them plenty of softballs to knock out of the park).   Frankly, I'd rather hear good ol' fashioned painful whining than *that*.  And there is a lot of *that* going on.

[choon328]

2 hours ago, rangerous said:

your facts are right but leave out some important ones.  zwilson regressed from last season to this one and then regressed even more from the beginning of this season to the end.  lafleur had players in the dog house.  obviously this could be on the players but the way you bring the players back into the fold is the key. except for a couple of early games, lafleur never did get the run game going to an acceptable level. some of this is due to oline continuity but some may be from vets tuning him out. and i don't think breece hall would've done that much better over the whole season.

getting back to zwilson, i think lafleur spun this kids head around so he didn't know which way was up.  i think lafleur was trying to get him so focused on his mechanics that he lost whatever touch he had in throwing the football.  if the qb doesn't play fluidly and has to think too much about every throw he'll fail.

LaFleur treated Wilson with kid gloves. He cut down the playbook probably by half for him. Gave him easy reads and easy throws every game, it's all there to be seen on the All-22. Wilson is not mentally capable of playing QB in the NFL, mechanics are not close to being his worst problem. He can't read defenses or the field post snap and when he's given opportunities to make the simple throws that are created for him based on play design he ****ed those up to. 

I was wildly disappointed in LaFleur this year but to blame Wilson's regression on him is incorrect. I have a feeling Wilson doesn't love football as much as JD and Saleh says he does. 

[Jet Nut]

Should be interesting to see how many interviews he gets.  
 

[Augustiniak]

51 minutes ago, Bugg said:

There is no reward because Wilson is totally worthless. There's no fixing this. They f___ed up, and badly. 

Course of action should have been deal with Darnold's almost average QBing  for another year or 2, trade down, take Sewell or Parsons, and right now this team is in the playoffs. Alas, can't change any of that. 

Joe Douglas is looking at going back to his nights as a scout sleeping in crappy hotels and bad coffee at interstate rest stops in the southeast a whole bunch starting January 2024 if this team  doesn't make the playoffs. Which is why being Jimmy Garapolo's agent is going to be such a fun job through the first week in March. The prospect of unemployment tends to focus one's mind on  the most needful of things. 

Seriously, if Douglas and Saleh think they can win with Wilson, sell that to a new "Senior Offensive Assistant", to say nothing of this fan base, they will be fired first week in January 2024. 

MLF is only the first domino to fall.  Douglas surely knows he’s got 1 more year to find a serviceable starter or else he’s gone.  So i highly doubt wilson enters training camp as the presumed starter.  Actually i think it’s more 50/50 wilson isn’t even here.  The smartest solution may be to pay white, sign a veteran, trade wilson for a conditional 2024 pick that’s higher than a 2023 pick, and then go balls out to make the playoffs in 2023.  And then draft a qb in 2024.

[UntouchableCrew]

10 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Rise up SOJF

I can honestly understand being optimistic about this young roster and the future of the Jets.

I cannot fathom thinking the Jets OC position is a remotely attractive job.

[Jet Nut]

12 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Actual Jets fans don't like people who are only fans of certain players but make pretend they're Jets fans as well. We didn't like the Tebow people and we don't like the Wilson only fans either. 

As Jets fans our goal is to win, whether that's with Zach or Mickey Mouse the majority of us don't care. It's guys like you who have a Zach Wilson agenda and could care less about the Jets organization that create the divisiveness on this site. So maybe, just maybe, bring your ass back to whatever hole you came out of and leave so actual fans of the Jets can have reasonable, civilized discussions about the future of the Jets. Thanks. 

So what you’re saying you dislike Jets fans who like and root for Jets players you don’t like.  They need to get out of their holes and leave if they like Zach Wilson because you don’t.  
Interesting take on fandom.  

[Dcat]

11 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

I just found out about this this morning so I haven't  read all the posts but this sounds like someone has stuck his nose where it doesn't  belong and now probably MLF knowing other teams are asking about him figured this is as good a time as any to jump ship and work for a different organization  with a normal QB situation and an OL not made up of UPS loading dock workers. 

My gut is telling me Woody is looking for someone to take the fall for having 2 top prospects (Sam and Zach) not develop and for the collapse down the stretch.  MLF was the easy target. To be honest,  all three phases took turns in losing games. 

sums it up nicely.  Nevertheless, I'm VERY glad he's gone. And I'm glad for him because it's better for him to escape the balck hole aka Zach Wilson.  He's a young guy and has brains.  He'll eventually mature and develop and hopefully be able to make eye contact with players.  He's was here in the wrong place (any place with Zach Wilson is the wrong place) at the wrong time (5+ years too early in his development as a potential OC). 

My suggestion is to let this future OC have some say in who his vet QB will be and go from there with Zach holding clipboards for the next 1-2 years.  Dumping him one year from now is not too bad a dead cap hit.  One last year to see how he does in practice, but please..... not the starter.   

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I can honestly understand being optimistic about this young roster and the future of the Jets.

I cannot fathom thinking the Jets OC position is a remotely attractive job.

With all the guys on offense they have, any OC who isn’t completely inept will take that offense with either carr or jimmy g and score points.  He’ll be hailed as a genius.

[choon328]

7 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Should be interesting to see how many interviews he gets.  
 

I think he becomes the OC in Green Bay, works with Rodgers for 1 year then gets a HC job.  I wouldn't be shocked. NFL owners love bloodlines

[Green Ghost]

1 hour ago, heymangold said:

To me, it reads more like MiLF stepped down to save his boy Saleh from having to fire him.  I do think he’ll be good with a team that has a competent QB - I don’t think he’s a terrible OC but woody wanted him gone and in the end, he’s the boss.  
 

just don’t fck it up and bring in bevell or some other stiff.

How do you know it was Woody who wanted him gone and not Douglas?

[UntouchableCrew]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

With all the guys on offense they have, any OC who isn’t completely inept will take that offense with either carr or jimmy g and score points.  He’ll be hailed as a genius.

Who is starting on the offensive line next year? Who is starting at QB?

Garrett Wilson and Breece Hall look like studs. That's what you're working with on offense.

[Dcat]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

With all the guys on offense they have, any OC who isn’t completely inept will take that offense with either carr or jimmy g and score points.  He’ll be hailed as a genius.

I agree. It should be seen as a solid opportunity. But of course.....  this is the NY Jets.  

[choon328]

6 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

MLF is only the first domino to fall.  Douglas surely knows he’s got 1 more year to find a serviceable starter or else he’s gone.  So i highly doubt wilson enters training camp as the presumed starter.  Actually i think it’s more 50/50 wilson isn’t even here.  The smartest solution may be to pay white, sign a veteran, trade wilson for a conditional 2024 pick that’s higher than a 2023 pick, and then go balls out to make the playoffs in 2023.  And then draft a qb in 2024.

If the Jets are serious about getting a QB they'll have a trade done, in principle, for one around the Super Bowl.  The Stafford trade was agreed to on 1/31. If they're waiting for the start of the new year to address the QB position then they fully intend on Wilson being the starting QB in 2023. They'll say there will be a competition but JD will force it if it's close. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, UntouchableCrew said:

Who is starting on the offensive line next year? Who is starting at QB?

Garrett Wilson and Breece Hall look like studs. That's what you're working with on offense.

Moore and ruckert, with carter and z.  I’ll assume mims stays but not davis.  I’ll also assume they sign at least 1 quality FA OL and then draft one in the first round.  And then there’s anything you get from becton.

you can complain all you want about this but the reality is that the jets offense is ready to roll next august with a veteran qb.  And with an OC who understands how to call plays.