LaFleur and Jets part ways

[JetsFanatic]

1 hour ago, choon328 said:

The Bills defense was missing 4 starters in that 1st game and another one,  Rousseau,  got hurt early in the 1st quarter. Context matters

If injuries matter then the Jets should get a pass also. Most of their offensive line was injured as well as their best running back and WR Corey Davis.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Saleh should have been fired. No competent OC is going to come in here without a QB, knowing the HC is on the hot seat and a bad year next year with no QB and a new system means the OC will be gone. 

This is exactly why the Jets, are the Jets. We operate like a mom and pop convenience store instead of an NFL franchise.

Its getting tiresome

[football guy]

54 minutes ago, Trotter said:

Well they are consistent - wasn't that the same trait that Gase had?

I still remember his press conference in miami when tannehill was injured in a game and his answer to the media was I dont know what is wrong with him - go ask #12.

Wether it is football or any function in life - if you can't communicate  - you simply should not be in any type of admin role. Makes you feel great about the twitter, social media generations we are currently developing. Fortunatly I am old so my time is limited.   

I've said a too many times- as much as I feel MLF can be good given his smart play design and scheme, he gave me sooo many Adam Gase vibes. Sure- when it works and everything clicks it's glorious (see the 2013-14 Broncos). When it doesn't click? Awful results. I think MLF was more creative and had a better idea how to build a sustainable offense in a vacuum, but their coaching styles and player management was strikingly similar. 

When everything needs to be exactly precise in order to work, you're working with such a slim margin of error. I get wanting to build the system he was building, but you have to be able to adapt when its not working. His mentor (Kyle Shanahan) was able to do that in Washington, Cleveland, and Atlanta- led to a head coaching gig. His older brother Matt was able to do that in Tennessee- it led to a head coaching gig. All the best coaches and innovators are able to adapt and adjust in order to produce. Are gimmicky RPO-based offenses sustainable? No. But when you cannot produce any offense whatsoever, can't execute the wide-zone run blocks, and struggle in pass protection, you have to evaluate what you have an develop a gameplan/scheme that can generate the most points in the present-day environment. He did not do that and neither did Gase. 

[Lith]

44 minutes ago, section314 said:

I think it’s pretty simple. If Zach is going to bust, at least give him the chance to work with a staff that has actually developed NFL QB’s and can handle the responsibility of running an entire offense. MLF and the other dopes on his staff have done everything in their power to destroy Zach, not to mention other guys on the offense questioning the abilities of that staff. This offense didn’t score a TD in three weeks with 4 different QB’s. Let that sink in, and then ask yourself if those guys   were the right guys to have anything to do with a young QB. Zach may bust, but at least he will be doing it with real coaches and not a collection of in over their heads frauds.

I am okay with this as long as Zach has real competition from a competent NFL vet.  He cannot be handed the job because he was a high draft pick two seasons ago.  We cannot have another season with a QB room consisting a 37 year old vet nearing retirement and inexperienced guys with a handful of NFL games.  If Zach wins a legit competition in pre-season against Carr/Jimmy G/Minshew or another expereinced vet in his 20s or young 30s I can live with it -- it'll still scare the sh*t out of me heading into the season, but so be it.

[JETS SB]

8 minutes ago, Bugg said:

No, we have been over this. Both with Sanchez, and Darnold. Every so often, a QB after a rough start figures it out. Like when his last name is Manning. Or when you could see a glimpse of figuring things out. 

In almost every way, Wilson has no such data points. In fact, every data point says he's gonna continue to suck forever. 

His stat comparisons are the off the chart disasters.

At least with Darnold and Sanchez, you could point to good size, and having had some success in a major conference. They even had some decent games here. In the few games Jets won with Wilson, he had to be worked around. And whether you or I or anyone in Metlife or on the couch or on a barstool "gives up" on him, that will be of zero consequence in that awful inevitable outcome. 

Good points (though Zach and Sanchez are exactly the same height and weight). Zach has had some decent games as well.  Not saying he should start. Just saying I am supporting him because he is a Jet. Until he isn’t, I will. Once he is gone, it’s on to the next guy. Unless the kid dogs it or does an Elijah Moore and doesn’t want to be here, it will remain. 

[Darnold615]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

LaFleur’s unwillingness to adapt did him in. He tried forcing square pegs in round holes every single week, it became predictable because he then only ran plays he felt players were capable of running within his schemes and most players struggled because of it. 

Even with all that said, I think he would’ve retained his job if he was a better communicator, specifically with the players and more willing to address issues head-on instead of trying to avoid conflict or controversy… you don’t have to be abbrasive in order to be a problem-solver. That was his downfall. 

Interesting and helpful perspective.  (and I think this is why most people on the board/fans/media) He seemed to be an excellent communicator.  When I watched some of his interviews and clips he was excellent at explaining things and going through what he saw. 

[Adoni Beast]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

I think he would’ve retained his job if he was a better communicator, specifically with the players and more willing to address issues head-on instead of trying to avoid conflict or controversy… you don’t have to be abbrasive in order to be a problem-solver. That was his downfall. 

I tell my sons all the time. If you're going to be an assh0le at work you better be amazing to the point of not being able to be replaced....otherwise you better be a good team player.

They're young so they pick their nose and throw toys at me when I ramble...

[Bugg]

14 minutes ago, JETS SB said:

Good points (though Zach and Sanchez are exactly the same height and weight). Zach has had some decent games as well.  Not saying he should start. Just saying I am supporting him because he is a Jet. Until he isn’t, I will. Once he is gone, it’s on to the next guy. Unless the kid dogs it or does an Elijah Moore and doesn’t want to be here, it will remain. 

Sanchez listed as 232, to Wilson's 216. Suspect from the looks of him, Wilson pulled the Jim Burt move of wearing thick socks and construction boots on the day they measured height; he's tiny. Based on seeing him on the sideline, looks closer to 5'11'/6" at best. One more reason completely at a loss what the f__ they were thinking when they picked him. 

[More Cowbell]

2 hours ago, Dcat said:

sums it up nicely.  Nevertheless, I'm VERY glad he's gone. And I'm glad for him because it's better for him to escape the balck hole aka Zach Wilson.  He's a young guy and has brains.  He'll eventually mature and develop and hopefully be able to make eye contact with players.  He's was here in the wrong place (any place with Zach Wilson is the wrong place) at the wrong time (5+ years too early in his development as a potential OC). 

My suggestion is to let this future OC have some say in who his vet QB will be and go from there with Zach holding clipboards for the next 1-2 years.  Dumping him one year from now is not too bad a dead cap hit.  One last year to see how he does in practice, but please..... not the starter.   

I just hope we get a guy like Frank Riech or Gary Kubiak. It's  time to bring in some grey haired guys

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, choon328 said:

LaFleur treated Wilson with kid gloves. He cut down the playbook probably by half for him. Gave him easy reads and easy throws every game, it's all there to be seen on the All-22. Wilson is not mentally capable of playing QB in the NFL, mechanics are not close to being his worst problem. He can't read defenses or the field post snap and when he's given opportunities to make the simple throws that are created for him based on play design he ****ed those up to. 

I was wildly disappointed in LaFleur this year but to blame Wilson's regression on him is incorrect. I have a feeling Wilson doesn't love football as much as JD and Saleh says he does. 

The truth is coming out in drubs and drabs.  Apparently lafleur was a cold cat and didn’t give swilling the attention he needed. I’m sure many would say zeilson needed to buck up a put big boy pants on it could also indicate how he treated the rest of the team.  We saw a cold cat when sh*tty was here. This approach doesn’t work.

[section314]

45 minutes ago, Lith said:

I am okay with this as long as Zach has real competition from a competent NFL vet.  He cannot be handed the job because he was a high draft pick two seasons ago.  We cannot have another season with a QB room consisting a 37 year old vet nearing retirement and inexperienced guys with a handful of NFL games.  If Zach wins a legit competition in pre-season against Carr/Jimmy G/Minshew or another expereinced vet in his 20s or young 30s I can live with it -- it'll still scare the sh*t out of me heading into the season, but so be it.

I think your reservations are totally legit. If this is handled how I think/ hope it will be, there will be a vet in place here before the draft and OTA’s . He will be the starter. Zach will be treated like a new draft pick and will be coached up like a rookie to get up to speed for the NFL, something the prior staff had no clue how to do. I would think the plan would for it to be a redshirt type of situation, with his only chance to see the field either injuries to the two top guys, or a dramatic jump in his play where the new OC actually thinks he won’t be killing the team by playing him.

[ToonforPrez]

18 hours ago, T0mShane said:

What’s the road ahead look like? 

[Sonny Werblin]

3 hours ago, Dcat said:

^ Well thought out and well stated.  Curious about the final sentence re: Saleh intending to move on from him...   what signs of that did you see?  

No signs other than Saleh has a brain and wants to win

[Chewy and the Jets]

I say no harm no foul.  Lafleur has shown me very little that would make me miss him.  The total regression of our most prized asset is on his head and is a fireable offense.  The lack of any development from talented players like Elijah Moore and Denzel Mims reflect poorly on him as well.   The idea that Mims and Bechton could not be utilized because they did not understand or fit MLF's scheme is a total failure of coaching.  I have literally never heard from a coach that talented players can't be utilized or developed because they don't fit my system.  The idea that multiple teams were after him and he was "allowed" to pursue these many opportunities is preposterous imo.  I would lay 10-1 odds that he does not get an OC job this off-season.  

[bgivs21]

3 hours ago, football guy said:

I've said a too many times- as much as I feel MLF can be good given his smart play design and scheme, he gave me sooo many Adam Gase vibes. Sure- when it works and everything clicks it's glorious (see the 2013-14 Broncos). When it doesn't click? Awful results. I think MLF was more creative and had a better idea how to build a sustainable offense in a vacuum, but their coaching styles and player management was strikingly similar. 

When everything needs to be exactly precise in order to work, you're working with such a slim margin of error. I get wanting to build the system he was building, but you have to be able to adapt when its not working. His mentor (Kyle Shanahan) was able to do that in Washington, Cleveland, and Atlanta- led to a head coaching gig. His older brother Matt was able to do that in Tennessee- it led to a head coaching gig. All the best coaches and innovators are able to adapt and adjust in order to produce. Are gimmicky RPO-based offenses sustainable? No. But when you cannot produce any offense whatsoever, can't execute the wide-zone run blocks, and struggle in pass protection, you have to evaluate what you have an develop a gameplan/scheme that can generate the most points in the present-day environment. He did not do that and neither did Gase. 

I do agree with you that MLF has the talent to design and scheme, and maybe keeping him and bringing in Kubiak would have worked (esp to help MLF evolve) but I think a mjaor factor in MLFs firing was his negative relationship with players that is probably irreparable. ZW, Moore, Mims, Becton, even G Wilson called out coaching twice this year. Just trying to read between the lines. 

 

[BornJetsFan1983]

5 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I can honestly understand being optimistic about this young roster and the future of the Jets.

I cannot fathom thinking the Jets OC position is a remotely attractive job.

I already went through a couple reasons, but just to rehash -

players (g Wilson, B hall good def), 

Front Office - making every effort to get better through draft and free agency , overall the much improved roster will get better or be about the same which is NFL quality

hunger (with pieces here you can do a good job set yourself up nicely and as seen with Lafleur, the offense can succeed despite your playing calling with out injuries to RB/ line etc...all of which will be healthy next season),

Control: Saleh will give you free reigh to impleement your system and let you work. That is very good for any potential off coord

Opportunity: the reality just like a draft pick there are only so many opportunities and team you can play for. you think zach wilson or trevor lawrence didnt want to play for the jags or jets because they sucked? No its the biggest day of their career and no matter what you want to play. Coaches are the same Sure maybe some shop a bit but if you are looking for the job, that mean you will take whatever you can get. Some people maybe does interview because they are waiting for the perfect team like say sean payton, but most are looking to just get the job they dont care what team because they are confident and also because they can fix any team.

There is alot to this of course but the reality is when decent roster like ours even with all the question marks, if you are good at your jonb you can win games. There is no reason to think we cant score a TD in three games. That was on coaching. A decent off coord woudl figure it out. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

30 minutes ago, bgivs21 said:

I do agree with you that MLF has the talent to design and scheme, and maybe keeping him and bringing in Kubiak would have worked (esp to help MLF evolve) but I think a mjaor factor in MLFs firing was his negative relationship with players that is probably irreparable. ZW, Moore, Mims, Becton, even G Wilson called out coaching twice this year. Just trying to read between the lines. 

 

He was way adam gase. coach thinks he is out smarting everyone. no bro its 1st down on the goal line. Run it. Dont get cute, just pound it and take the safe points. 

He got way to cute all the damn time. the berrios pitches were horrendous. We got a back give you 5 a carry and got your the goal line but not you dont want to run him cause they expect it? THEY EXPECT IT CAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU SCORE!!! lol La fluer was strite poopy gooks.

the bad relationships is a good point. Black balling mims for personal reason was dumb, not game planinng G wilson or E moore in was dumb..many things to count here. I am glad he gone.

[football guy]

26 minutes ago, bgivs21 said:

I do agree with you that MLF has the talent to design and scheme, and maybe keeping him and bringing in Kubiak would have worked (esp to help MLF evolve) but I think a mjaor factor in MLFs firing was his negative relationship with players that is probably irreparable. ZW, Moore, Mims, Becton, even G Wilson called out coaching twice this year. Just trying to read between the lines. 

 

Yeah its a very tough look. He got a pass with Becton and Mims, but MLF also had a loud voice in other personnel decisions because of how much respect others had for his ability to scout and identify talent that fit within his scheme. He was personally on-board and even petitioned to acquire Zach Wilson, Elijah Moore, Michael Carter, Corey Davis, Keelan Cole, and Tevin Coleman last year. He was intimately involved with the decisions to sign Laken Tomlinson, CJ Uzomah, and Tyler Conklin. He was involved with the process that led to us drafting Garrett Wilson, Breece Hall, and Jeremy Ruckert. When you have a lot of displeasure emanating from the very players you petitioned to add while failing to find ways to adequately use those players within your scheme (let alone adjust the scheme to them), that's a problem. 

The one thing that should have been a much bigger concern for the Jets in retrospect: the coaching staff (specifically LaFleur) wanted Sam Darnold. They felt that Zach Wilson had much more upside, but still wanted Darnold. If it wasn't Darnold they wanted Zach- but it was clear the initial desire was not to start with a rookie QB day 1 given how much work it would take to teach him the playbook, depth of the offense, and how to read defenses. Instead of giving the coaching staff a say, Douglas should've just said "this job comes attached with drafting a new QB at #2"... that would've revealed who was most eager to draft and develop a QB

[Jimmy 2 Times]

4 hours ago, rangerous said:

The truth is coming out in drubs and drabs.  Apparently lafleur was a cold cat and didn’t give swilling the attention he needed. I’m sure many would say zeilson needed to buck up a put big boy pants on it could also indicate how he treated the rest of the team.  We saw a cold cat when sh*tty was here. This approach doesn’t work.

Is this slang or typo?

I'd love to understand what you said regardless. 

[#27TheDominator]

16 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

He was way adam gase. coach thinks he is out smarting everyone. no bro its 1st down on the goal line. Run it. Dont get cute, just pound it and take the safe points. 

He got way to cute all the damn time. the berrios pitches were horrendous. We got a back give you 5 a carry and got your the goal line but not you dont want to run him cause they expect it? THEY EXPECT IT CAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU SCORE!!! lol La fluer was strite poopy gooks.

the bad relationships is a good point. Black balling mims for personal reason was dumb, not game planinng G wilson or E moore in was dumb..many things to count here. I am glad he gone.

Now he didn't gameplan Garrett Wilson?  The ******* kid had 147 targets.  That is 7th overall. 

[TommyT]

What is troubling is that Saleh would sacrifice the growth of this team by keeping his buddy LaFleur. If it true Saleh was opposed by this firing what else would he be willing to sacrifice for the sake of friendship. Loyalty is a good thing, but not to this degree.

[TNJet]

21 hours ago, BP said:

The big question: who’s going to hire the new OC? Saleh? He has no clue what he wants to do unless it’s printed on a t shirt. These dumbasses better come up with a plan and ask the right questions to the candidates 

Gase

[Jimmy 2 Times]

I typically don't like this move because year three in a system is when you usually see teams explode.

MiLF is a young guy that they took a chance on and, imo, deserved a chance to grow.

It must've been really toxic behind the scenes besides the Mims/Moore/GWilson stuff. 

Good leaders need to know how to listen as well as speak. 

 

Hopefully they bring in someone that runs something relatively similar (Kubiak/Shanny coaching tree) just with a less complicated blocking scheme.  If Zach is still here I don't want him starting all over.  This goes with our young players that will have to learn a new system (Mims third!).

 

This is a very big reason the Jets never get over the hump.  No consistency in scheme and coaches.  Constantly changing everything every 2-3 years.

[rangerous]

40 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

Is this slang or typo?

I'd love to understand what you said regardless. 

It’s apple auto correct speak.

[FactsOnly]

6 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I know that everybody acts like it is some kind of unusual thing that they wanted the receivers to know all the spots, but I don't think it is such a novel concept.  Mangini demanded that every practice squad DB knew the name of the 5th string WR's cat.  I think it is odd how people take the side of Mims on that when they always want to scream about accountability.

thats not the same thing at all

not even remotely the same

[FactsOnly]

5 hours ago, Biggs said:

There's a serious argument to be made that based on the QB's on the Jets roster, Zach was the best possible QB to play.  

unfortunately, Zach WAS THE BEST QB ON THE ROSTER

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, FactsOnly said:

thats not the same thing at all

not even remotely the same

Really?  Please expound. 

[FootballLove]

19 hours ago, ChuckkieB said:

C'mon. What's Saleh supposed to say publicly about Wilson?  That he's a bum and they're moving on from him? He's got to make stupid statements like that and then take the bullets for them.  That's part of his job.  Behind the scenes, there cannot be much if any support coming from Douglas and Saleh to hang their hats (and jobs) on Wilson in 2023.  No way!

I get it, but if you're LeFleur and have ambitions, what are you supposed to do if you're handed Zack Wilson then hear you HC say you'll have ZW next season too. Seems LeFleur got outta Dodge as fast as possible. (not that he had a choice)

[johnnysd]

I believe LaFleur was fired last week. His press conference definitely points to that. I believe the rest was orchestrated by the Jets to make it seem like he was not fired and make it easier to get a new job.

[Averagejetsfan1421]

8 hours ago, Biggs said:

Common opponent the Bills.  Wilson was sacked twice and had a QBR of 101.  White was sacked 3 times, left the game and had a 78.6 QBR.  Replaced by Flacco 1 sack fumble 42.4 QBR.  

They ignore these stats though 

[Jet Nut]

5 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Saleh should have been fired. No competent OC is going to come in here without a QB, knowing the HC is on the hot seat and a bad year next year with no QB and a new system means the OC will be gone. 

This is exactly why the Jets, are the Jets. We operate like a mom and pop convenience store instead of an NFL franchise.

Its getting tiresome

Except for the fact that the only one saying Saleh is on the hot seat is you.  The owner insists he isn’t.  And if a new OC comes in with a new QB most think the Jets with all their young talent along with another offseason are going to be competitive.  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

Except for the fact that the only one saying Saleh is on the hot seat is you.  The owner insists he isn’t.  And if a new OC comes in with a new QB most think the Jets with all their young talent along with another offseason are going to be competitive.  

[Jet Nut]

7 hours ago, choon328 said:

The Bills defense was missing 4 starters in that 1st game and another one,  Rousseau,  got hurt early in the 1st quarter. Context matters

The idea that the Bills defense was so much worse when Zach faced them and an excuse for Whites problems is flawed.  Completely.  

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Link?  Proof?  Hint?  Nope.
Cute meaningless meme?  Check

[Claymation]

I knew he would love this move.