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Lamar Jackson talk is completely triggering me


JohnnyLV

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12 minutes ago, Grandy said:

Since when are total passing yards the end all for being a good passer? Lamar just doesn't have a lot of attempts, but he's been efficient. 

when your talking about an average of 2800 yards a year for Lamar and good passers are hitting 4500 and great passers 5000 plus do I really need to explain ?

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2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

No, I said "healthy scratch".  Healthy in the NFL means "physically able to play".

I'll repeat, if he is so hurt he is not physically able to play, there is no discussion here.  

Clearly he IS healthy enough to play, otherwise it's a non-issue that he's not playing.

That and he didn't even show up for the game. I heard that so I'm assuming its true

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6 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

when your talking about an average of 2800 yards a year for Lamar and good passers are hitting 4500 and great passers 5000 plus do I really need to explain ?

That's because of attempts and Lamar having another element to his game that those guys don't have. He doesn't need to chuck it all the time, and when he does throw he's been very efficient. Top 15 career passer rating. Plus it's not like they've had the weapons for a big passing attack either.

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19 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

Tua has played more games in the last two seasons than Lamar Jackson. Whoever the Dolphins sign this off-season is going to likely see an uptick in their production as a quarterback with those receivers in Miami. That's assuming Tua isn't the quarterback anymore.

Lamar is so much better than Tua it’s not even funny.

You put him on that team with that HC running the offense? That’s must watch level stuff.

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15 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Nobody said Lamar skipped the game while 100 % healthy not one single person. 

This is the post in referring to:

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I'd be legit curious what the Venn diagram would look like between "Jets Fans supportive of Lamar healthy-scratching himself from a playoff game" and "Jets Fans who want the Jets to sign Lamar".

I disagree with Warfish in that he was a healthy scratch.

14 minutes ago, Warfish said:

No, I said "healthy scratch".  Healthy in the NFL means "physically able to play".

I'll repeat, if he is so hurt he is not physically able to play, there is no discussion here.  

Clearly he IS healthy enough to play, otherwise it's a non-issue that he's not playing.

Was Lamar cleared to play? I just tried googling it but didn't get very far.

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1 hour ago, Awesumtenor said:

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2019/11/11/mythbusters-yes-lamar-jackson-is-a-pocket-passer/
 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/ravens/one-metric-rates-lamar-jackson-best-pocket-passer-nfl

 

https://www.patspulpit.com/2022/9/24/23369776/5-questions-patriots-ravens-preview-nfl-week-3
 

There are quite a few others; google “Lamar Jackson pocket passer”. when he is in the pocket his feet are quiet as he goes through his progressions. When a pass is called, he stands in to deliver the ball downfield and runs only when he has to. As I noted in another post in this thread. Daniel Jones and Josh Allen ran the ball about the same number of times for the same number of yards this year; why don’t you besmirch them as running QB’s as you do Lamar?

Running is a big part of Daniel Jones and Josh Allen's games.  Jones seems pretty healthy to me though and Josh Allen is built like a tank.  I think they're still good and will be for a while.

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56 minutes ago, varjet said:

I think as a general matter we will be surprised by how much each of the FA QBs cost.  All of them will get more than they we expect, or that they should.  

Probably but some of the contracts this year were SO bad we could see pushback (ie, collusion) from the owners to not go down that path again.

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21 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Nobody said Lamar skipped the game while 100 % healthy not one single person. But you have to keep in mind if Lamar was able to play the QB position but was somewhat limited in being able to run all over the field he should have played after all he is a QB ..Right ? . I'm sure he could have navigated the pocket . BUT if Lamar knowing the biggest part of my game is running the football and he cant run the football and fails in the pocket that could be 40mil down the toilet as well. From a money standpoint Lamar 100 % made the right decision for himself.....for the team is another story

Fish called him a healthy scratch. That’s what he’s talking about.

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6 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:
Year Age Tm GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate QBR GWD
Care Care   61 45-16-0 1055 1655 63.7 12209 101 38 96.7   1
2018 21 BAL 7 6-1-0 99 170 58.2 1201 6 3 84.5 42.6 1
2019*+ 22 BAL 15 13-2-0 265 401 66.1 3127 36 6 113.3 83.0 2
2020 23 BAL 15 11-4-0 242 376 64.4 2757 26 9 99.3 67.3 1
2021* 24 BAL 12 7-5-0 246 382 64.4 2882 16 13 87.0 50.7 4
2022 25 BAL 12 8-4-0 203 326 62.3 2242 17 7 91.1 59.5 2

Lamar Jackson the past two seasons:
24 games played and 15-9 record as a starter
Total games missed: 10
5,124 yards passing
33 Touchdowns and 20 Interceptions

These past two seasons Lamar Jackson appears to be trending down. I can see why the Ravens are not so quick to give in to his contract demands. Now let's compare that to Derek Carr for the same past two seasons.

 

Year Age Tm GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate QBR GWD
Care Care   142 63-79-0 3201 4958 64.6 35222 217 99 91.8   33
2014 23 OAK 16 3-13-0 348 599 58.1 3270 21 12 76.6 42.1 1
2015* 24 OAK 16 7-9-0 350 573 61.1 3987 32 13 91.1 43.1 4
2016* 25 OAK 15 12-3-0 357 560 63.8 3937 28 6 96.7 56.1 7
2017* 26 OAK 15 6-9-0 323 515 62.7 3496 22 13 86.4 50.5 1
2018 27 OAK 16 4-12-0 381 553 68.9 4049 19 10 93.9 46.5 3
2019 28 OAK 16 7-9-0 361 513 70.4 4054 21 8 100.8 64.1 3
2020 29 LVR 16 8-8-0 348 517 67.3 4103 27 9 101.4 64.3 5
2021 30 LVR 17 10-7-0 428 626 68.4 4804 23 14 94.0 52.4 6
2022 31 LVR 15 6-9-0 305 502 60.8 3522 24 14 86.3 55.6 3

 

Derek Carr the past two seasons:
32 games played and 16-16 record as a starter
Total games missed: 0
8,326 yards passing
47 Touchdowns and 28 Interceptions

 

Give me Derek Carr for zero draft picks - or at worst one day three draft pick - instead of Lamar Jackson for a trade package to the Ravens similar to what the Broncos gave in to the Seahawks for Russell Wilson. 

Okay, I’m fine with Derek Carr.. Always have been.

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2 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

If Tua's done the Dolphins will have more choices than gutting their future for a running quarterback on the decline.

Thankfully they are something like 20mil over the cap and don’t pick until round 3 or 4. So there’s not much they can do anytime soon

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2 hours ago, carlito1171 said:

Point is fair but, if we're comparing seasons....Brady threw for close to 200 less yards on 100 more attempts....if you give most NFL level QBs over 700 passing attempts they should be able to throw for over 4,000 yards lol

Brady just posted his lowest yards per attempt(6.2), lowest QBR(52.5), TD% (3.4), lowest passer rating since 2018. 

Also to be completely fair , if you go to advanced stats he just posted one of his best on target %, and lowest bad throw %s. 

So an argument can be made both ways. I just have a hard time believing that at 46 he's a better option given that father time is undefeated and his numbers could plummet even more, and guaranteed that they will the longer he keeps playing 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

A big piece of the argument to me is the contract.  Lamar and Carr are going to want long-term deals at big money (a lot of it guaranteed).  In his prime, I think Lamar would've absolutely been worth it to acquire.  But I think his prime is in the rearview mirror at this point.  (The Ravens are a smart organization.)  Carr I just don't think is good enough to get us over the hump.  Brady wouldn't be nearly the risk as either of those 2 and I could see him somehow pulling out another SB win.  If anyone could do it, it would be him.

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4 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

A big piece of the argument to me is the contract.  Lamar and Carr are going to want long-term deals at big money (a lot of it guaranteed).  In his prime, I think Lamar would've absolutely been worth it to acquire.  But I think his prime is in the rearview mirror at this point.  (The Ravens are a smart organization.)  Carr I just don't think is good enough to get us over the hump.  Brady wouldn't be nearly the risk as either of those 2 and I could see him somehow pulling out another SB win.  If anyone could do it, it would be him.

What's wrong with having Carr for 3 seasons? I'm not so sure of this long-term deal people are talking about with Derek Carr. Isn't hit already signed until 2025? Are you telling me he's going to want a contract extension going out further than 2025? 

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5 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

A big piece of the argument to me is the contract.  Lamar and Carr are going to want long-term deals at big money (a lot of it guaranteed).  In his prime, I think Lamar would've absolutely been worth it to acquire.  But I think his prime is in the rearview mirror at this point.  (The Ravens are a smart organization.)  Carr I just don't think is good enough to get us over the hump.  Brady wouldn't be nearly the risk as either of those 2 and I could see him somehow pulling out another SB win.  If anyone could do it, it would be him.

My only real issue with Brady is the SB would be more about him than the NY Jets. That's honestly the entire reason I hope he doesn't come here. Other than that he should be option 1 IMO

 

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1 minute ago, playtowinthegame said:

What's wrong with having Carr for 3 seasons? I'm not so sure of this long-term deal people are talking about with Derek Carr. Isn't hit already signed until 2025? Are you telling me he's going to want a contract extension going out further than 2025? 

If you're Derek Carr's agent and you know how desperate the Jets are for a QB, are you only going to ask for 3 seasons?  You might think "well, we can just cut him after 3 seasons and we're off the hook".  But that's why he's going to demand a ton of guaranteed money.

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4 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

My only real issue with Brady is the SB would be more about him than the NY Jets. That's honestly the entire reason I hope he doesn't come here. Other than that he should be option 1 IMO

I completely hear you.  I don't love the idea of him being our savior.  But I do think we have an opportunity for the next 2 seasons (before our young guys need to get paid) where we could potentially have a shot at a championship.  Brady is always about the team and tends to take less money.  And he'll only be a 1-2 year guy.  This draft we can probably get 2 OL and a weapon for him in the first 3 rounds (and we band-aid up the defense in FA).  That would really give him something to work with. 

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For the record, I don't hate Carr or anything.  I hate the contract/commitment that I think we'll be required to get him here. 

Plus, I really don't get the feeling he's the kind of guy who elevates his team.  I think the Kirk Cousins comparison is a pretty good one.  He's right in that category.   Looks better on paper than he does in the big games.

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6 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

A big piece of the argument to me is the contract.  Lamar and Carr are going to want long-term deals at big money (a lot of it guaranteed).  In his prime, I think Lamar would've absolutely been worth it to acquire.  But I think his prime is in the rearview mirror at this point.  (The Ravens are a smart organization.)  Carr I just don't think is good enough to get us over the hump.  Brady wouldn't be nearly the risk as either of those 2 and I could see him somehow pulling out another SB win.  If anyone could do it, it would be him.

I get that....I want a more long term solution. I don't have any faith this regime can develop a QB even if they drafted one that could be developed. If I knew for a fact we'd be getting the 2020-2021 version of Brady I'd be fine selling out for a year or 2 to go for a SB. I'm fine with Carr. With Lamar, I do hesitate at the price, but you'd have to admit that if you land him you have the best QB since Namath and the most electrifying player in Sports History....I don't think we have the sample size to say definitively that his best is behind him, or he'll never be able to get even better from the pocket IMO. It's a tricky situation, but me and you both know, you're not competing in the AFC with Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, and now Lawrence all in their early-mid 20s without a franchise guy of your own. Good luck with the Minshews of the world making a wildcard at best. 

Also as smart as the Ravens are this is same organization that historically has never bothered to invest heavily at QB or WR, choosing to build their running game and defense solely with mixed results. 

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7 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

My only real issue with Brady is the SB would be more about him than the NY Jets. That's honestly the entire reason I hope he doesn't come here. Other than that he should be option 1 IMO

 

I honestly wouldn't care. I'd be at the Canyon of heroes celebrating a long awaited championship and let the dweebs in the media have at it with the narratives 

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1 minute ago, carlito1171 said:

I get that....I want a more long term solution. I don't have any faith this regime can develop a QB even if they drafted one that could be developed. If I knew for a fact we'd be getting the 2020-2021 version of Brady I'd be fine selling out for a year or 2 to go for a SB. I'm fine with Carr. With Lamar, I do hesitate at the price, but you'd have to admit that if you land him you have the best QB since Namath and the most electrifying player in Sports History....I don't think we have the sample size to say definitively that his best is behind him, or he'll never be able to get even better from the pocket IMO. It's a tricky situation, but me and you both know, you're not competing in the AFC with Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, and now Lawrence all in their early-mid 20s without a franchise guy of your own. Good luck with the Minshews of the world making a wildcard at best. 

Also as smart as the Ravens are this is same organization that historically has never bothered to invest heavily at QB or WR, choosing to build their running game and defense solely with mixed results. 

We basically agree though I don't know about "mixed results" for the Ravens.  (2 Super Bowl titles).

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On 1/13/2023 at 12:48 PM, Barry McCockinner said:

Lamar hasn't played a full season since 2020 (ignoring game he missed due to covid) and his style of play makes him more vulnerable to injury. 

His injuries have occurred on passing plays, in the pocket.  To say or insinuate otherwise demonstrates your not having watched very many of his games.

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1 minute ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

If you're Derek Carr's agent and you know how desperate the Jets are for a QB, are you only going to ask for 3 seasons?  You might think "well, we can just cut him after 3 seasons and we're off the hook".  But that's why he's going to demand a ton of guaranteed money.

Derek Carr Contract Breakdowns, Salary Cap Figures, Salaries, Bonuses | Spotrac

I would think the Jets could give him a deal that is similar to that one but for one extra dummy year for cap purposes should they give him a signing bonus. Seems more realistic than trading for Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady coming to play for the Jets. You really think Brady would come here? I don't believe he would ever do that to Robert Kraft. I thought I saw Tom Brady at Robert Kraft's wedding recently. Brady signing with the Jets would burn his bridges in New England.  I don't see that happening. It's Carr, Garoppolo, Mayfield, Minshew or maybe Ryan Tannehill. Maybe someone becomes available we haven't heard yet...What if the Bears start shopping Justin Fields if they intend to draft Bryce Young with the top pick? I would take a young passing running back like Fields over a washed one like Lamar every day of the week and twice on Sunday's. 

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2 minutes ago, playtowinthegame said:

Derek Carr Contract Breakdowns, Salary Cap Figures, Salaries, Bonuses | Spotrac

I would think the Jets could give him a deal that is similar to that one but for one extra dummy year for cap purposes should they give him a signing bonus. Seems more realistic than trading for Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady coming to play for the Jets. You really think Brady would come here? I don't believe he would ever do that to Robert Kraft. I thought I saw Tom Brady at Robert Kraft's wedding recently. Brady signing with the Jets would burn his bridges in New England.  I don't see that happening. It's Carr, Garoppolo, Mayfield, Minshew or maybe Ryan Tannehill. Maybe someone becomes available we haven't heard yet...What if the Bears start shopping Justin Fields if they intend to draft Bryce Young with the top pick? I would take a young passing running back like Fields over a washed one like Lamar every day of the week and twice on Sunday's. 

I don't think Brady would come here but I think the Jets have to try to convince him.  And he was willing to go to the Dolphins so I don't think it's impossible he'd come here.  Plus we really are kind of the perfect situation for him.  There's a lot of talent on both sides of the ball.  And a lot of our issues on offense can probably be fixed in this draft (2 OL and 1 WR or top-tier TE) .  We mainly just lack the QB.  

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16 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

If you're Derek Carr's agent and you know how desperate the Jets are for a QB, are you only going to ask for 3 seasons?  You might think "well, we can just cut him after 3 seasons and we're off the hook".  But that's why he's going to demand a ton of guaranteed money.

 

27 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

A big piece of the argument to me is the contract.  Lamar and Carr are going to want long-term deals at big money (a lot of it guaranteed).  In his prime, I think Lamar would've absolutely been worth it to acquire.  But I think his prime is in the rearview mirror at this point.  (The Ravens are a smart organization.)  Carr I just don't think is good enough to get us over the hump.  Brady wouldn't be nearly the risk as either of those 2 and I could see him somehow pulling out another SB win.  If anyone could do it, it would be him.

Lamar is only 25.

That said, I think Carr is the better option, he’s already made $135M, he’s a grinder, I just think he wants to win. I’m sure there’s a workable number.

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18 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

We basically agree though I don't know about "mixed results" for the Ravens.  (2 Super Bowl titles).

2 super bowl wins/appearances 13 years apart in which one of them they needed a historically good defense to get to and the other with a marginal QB playing out of his mind....a lot of marginal seasons in between..not exactly the pillar for sustained success

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1 minute ago, carlito1171 said:

2 super bowl wins/appearances 13 years apart in which one of them they needed a historically good defense to get to and the other with a marginal QB playing out of his mind....a lot of marginal seasons in between..not exactly the pillar for sustained success

That sounds like a fantastic 13 years of football if you ask me!

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38 minutes ago, Awesumtenor said:

His injuries have occurred on passing plays, in the pocket.  To say or insinuate otherwise demonstrates your not having watched very many of his games.

I didn't say or insinuate how his injuries happened. I said his style of play makes him more vulnerable to injury. It's important to read all the words.

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44 minutes ago, NYJCAP2 said:

Lamar is only 25.

That said, I think Carr is the better option, he’s already made $135M, he’s a grinder, I just think he wants to win. I’m sure there’s a workable number.

This is the piece for me. I know what I'll get out of Carr, Lamar with more money may get injured, take the foot off gas, decline.

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

If you're Derek Carr's agent and you know how desperate the Jets are for a QB, are you only going to ask for 3 seasons?  You might think "well, we can just cut him after 3 seasons and we're off the hook".  But that's why he's going to demand a ton of guaranteed money.

This could 100% be true, it was with Kirk Cousins. I'd offer 3 years $100m fully guaranteed, with a $50m signing bonus.

Cap Hits

2023 - $11m

2024 - $30m

2025 - $39m

2026 - Void

2027 - Void

 

You could restructure after 2 years if you wanna keep him or just play 3 years, be done, and Carr wouldn't be able to get tagged. I'd give him more years on less money if he wanted though.

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1 minute ago, football guy said:

We were also the odds on favorites to land Deshaun at one point. 

If Lamar is traded, the Atlanta Falcons would be the team who acquires him. Book it. 

What if Baltimore hits him with the non exclusive tag and he can sign with a team instead of being traded?

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