Sean Payton wants what?

[the Claw]

Just 25 million? Sure, it’s Woody’s money so who cares, bit 2 first round picks as a starter? Lol. No. Dude is not worth that.
 

1 Super Bowl and a bunch playoff flame outs with Drew Brees as your QB forever? How is he possibly worth what they’re asking. Ridiculous.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, JetPotato said:

Like I have been saying, all it takes is money.

That's what you do if you are serious about changing the success, the perception and the culture of an organization. If you want to go from league joke to legitimate football power, you bring in proven experts who have done it before. You pay whatever it takes. 

Parcells did it briefly. We reverted right back to clownshow when Woody came in.

$20 million a year for a Head Coach  (without any assistants) is an awful lot.  Not my money, of course, and no cap on coaches, but that's a ton of money regardless.

And "minimum of 2 1st rounders" for a Coach is also an awful lot.

There is no guarantee a guy who had success in one spot (with a future HOF QB in hand) will have the same success somewhere else, with no QB in hand.

I'm not saying no.  I'm saying wow, that's a heavy cost for what we get.

And Parcells is irrelevant to this discussion.  Just because he has some small success here (with a long lasting negative effect due to his GM'ing and mishandling of succession) doesn't mean Peyton will or won't.  Different guys, different situations, different eras.

[extmenace]

He jumped from a sinking ship in NO. Smart because it kept his stock high but when drew Brees left, his teams got worse. There is an obvious difference in good and bad coaches, but the difference between them changes significantly with good drafting and a franchise qb. Most HOF coaches have had HOF QBs. Payton is a good coach but drew brees was making him look elite. Much like belicheck with / without Tom Brady.

[Kleckineau]

WOW for Payton? No way.

I think Doug Peterson is better and Andy Reid would command 30 mill.

[Biggs]

2 hours ago, TommyT said:

Sean Payton should not be an option if you have to give 2 first rounders and pay 20-25 mil yearly. Let him stay an analyst.

There's no salary cap for coaches.  

[Alka]

2 hours ago, TommyT said:

Sean Payton should not be an option if you have to give 2 first rounders and pay 20-25 mil yearly. Let him stay an analyst.

Payton must have an ego the size of Manhattan.  No non-player is worth that much money.  You can be a bad coach and still win with good players, but you will never win with a good head coach and bad players.

Personally, I wouldn't give up 1 first round draft pick for him.  He won 1 Super Bowl, correct?  Not good enough for 2 first round draft picks.

[Alka]

16 minutes ago, extmenace said:

He jumped from a sinking ship in NO. Smart because it kept his stock high but when drew Brees left, his teams got worse. There is an obvious difference in good and bad coaches, but the difference between them changes significantly with good drafting and a franchise qb. Most HOF coaches have had HOF QBs. Payton is a good coach but drew brees was making him look elite. Much like belicheck with / without Tom Brady.

If Payton was so good, he should have stayed on with NO and helped them win with his amazing coaching abilities.  If he is really worth $20M per year, then he should be good enough to win with a bad team.  

[Hex]

1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

For sure - and maybe Sean Payton is an Andy Reid level coach? 

It will be curious to see where he goes and how he does. 

I doubt he's Andy Reid, level, but both of them have only 1 SB win despite a HOF career

[Hex]

1 hour ago, slats said:

He was at the helm of that team for 16 years. He’s not responsible for the defense in all that time?

He's an offensive coach. He had some of the best offenses ever at that same time. When he hired Dennis Allen the Saints became SB contenders for a few years there again. They would have won it that one year if Tommy Lee Lewis didn't get PIed and no-called in that Rams game

[Bay Ridge Jet]

He’s got the TV money to fall back on so I get why he’s asking for the moon. He brought them their only title but he bailed the second them kicking the can down the road with the salary cap caught up with them. 
 

im assuming he wants full roster control too? 

[FootballLove]

The $80 million or so you save on not paying those 2 first round picks could pay for Sean Payton....

[doitny]

If Payton is smart he waits till next year so he doesn’t handicap his new team by giving up 2 first rd picks. In fact if teams are smart they wait till next year

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, doitny said:

If Payton is smart he waits till next year so he doesn’t handicap his new team by giving up 2 first rd picks. In fact if teams are smart they wait till next year

I don't think his contract is up until after 2024.  That is a long time to wait.  Sure the Saints may lower their demand, but you are going to put your team on hiatus for 2023 and then still be at their mercy.

[slats]

29 minutes ago, Hex said:

He's an offensive coach. He had some of the best offenses ever at that same time. When he hired Dennis Allen the Saints became SB contenders for a few years there again. They would have won it that one year if Tommy Lee Lewis didn't get PIed and no-called in that Rams game

Yeah, it’s not like there’s anyone suggesting that Saleh, a defensive coach, should get fired for his team’s offensive performance. I guess a glorified OC is worth two first round picks and $20M/year, sure. 

[Warfish]

18 minutes ago, FootballLove said:

The $80 million or so you save on not paying those 2 first round picks could pay for Sean Payton....

You don't think we spend it on other players instead?  Think the Jets will just roll $80 million under the cap, lol?

[carlito1171]

I don't really care about the 20mil per.....that's owner's issue and doesn't count towards the cap. I'm not giving up 2 1's for a coach tho. Payton would be better served waiting till next year when his contract with the Saints ends....

[bonkertons]

3 hours ago, JetPotato said:

Like I have been saying, all it takes is money.

That's what you do if you are serious about changing the success, the perception and the culture of an organization. If you want to go from league joke to legitimate football power, you bring in proven experts who have done it before. You pay whatever it takes. 

Parcells did it briefly. We reverted right back to clownshow when Woody came in.

It's true.  Look at the Islanders.  They were a joke for decades until they finally paid up and brought in a respected GM and head coach.  It all starts at the top.  

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

There's no salary cap for coaches.  

There's also no financial incentive to win games 

The owners that make that move are committed to winning. The Johnsons treat the franchise like a cash machine 

[JetPotato]

3 hours ago, TommyT said:

Sean Payton should not be an option if you have to give 2 first rounders and pay 20-25 mil yearly. Let him stay an analyst.

 

3 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

The money is one thing.  The Saints asking for two firsts plus is quite another.

This is short-term thinking.

Two first round picks (which won't be what they actually get anyway) pales in comparison to building a respectable franchise, which starts with putting people in the building who know what they're doing, including the biggest hurdle: identifying and grooming a true franchise QB.

A guy like Payton changes things in a way no unpredictable first round pick will (with the staff as it stands). Zach Wilson and Sam Darnold were our two highest picks in the 1st round in recent years and we all know how they worked out. Get me someone in place that's going to pick the right QB and coach him the right way. Until that happens, every single first round pick is a waste of time. And frankly, that goes for the 1st round guys they've hit on too, like Sauce Gardner. He's a fantastic player, but his entire Jets career will come and go and there will be no ring to show for it, because there's no one here capable of filling that most important piece behind center. Our best option now is David Carr. The ceiling there is a couple of playoffs seasons. If you think there's an available free agent this offseason that's going to overcome Burrow, Mahomes, Allen and all the other young stars of the AFC, I have a bridge to sell you. A guy like Carr should be brought in as a bridge while a real coaching staff drafts and grooms the next guy to take over in 2-3 years.

Saleh isn't that guy. Sorry. Nice guy, like the defensive turnaround, but this is an offensive league. The Jets need not only an offensive mind running the show, but they need an elite one. It's time. This franchise is a disaster; probably the worst in all of sports. You fix that with people that know how to fix it, not with people that hope to maybe figure that out one day.

Get the house in order. Overpay. Whatever it takes. I promise you, anything else is just another half-measure. The Jets cycle will continue on in perpetuity until it happens. You want the QB, you need someone who knows how to get one first.

[Edgy]

21 minutes ago, bitonti said:

There's also no financial incentive to win games 

The owners that make that move are committed to winning. The Johnsons treat the franchise like a cash machine 

I don't get this take, Bit.   

Yes, Woody is going to make literally Billions from this team if/when he sells it, and he gets $$$ every year too.  Luck sperm club gets lucky buying a team at the right time.

But I don't know of any actual instances of him refusing to pay if there was a clear way to improve the team other than the fan generated 'Woody is cheap''.   By all accounts they spared no expense for One Jets Drive, the facilities, and anything they need out there on the training side.   

If anything, he's looking to be faster/impatient to win before he goes into the 'SB before I die' zone - and available, proven, experienced head coaches are more scared of him meddling and not letting them do their thing than being cheap.

 

[#27TheDominator]

4 hours ago, JetPotato said:

 

This is short-term thinking.

Two first round picks (which won't be what they actually get anyway) pales in comparison to building a respectable franchise, which starts with putting people in the building who know what they're doing, including the biggest hurdle: identifying and grooming a true franchise QB.

A guy like Payton changes things in a way no unpredictable first round pick will (with the staff as it stands). Zach Wilson and Sam Darnold were our two highest picks in the 1st round in recent years and we all know how they worked out. Get me someone in place that's going to pick the right QB and coach him the right way. Until that happens, every single first round pick is a waste of time. And frankly, that goes for the 1st round guys they've hit on too, like Sauce Gardner. He's a fantastic player, but his entire Jets career will come and go and there will be no ring to show for it, because there's no one here capable of filling that most important piece behind center. Our best option now is David Carr. The ceiling there is a couple of playoffs seasons. If you think there's an available free agent this offseason that's going to overcome Burrow, Mahomes, Allen and all the other young stars of the AFC, I have a bridge to sell you. A guy like Carr should be brought in as a bridge while a real coaching staff drafts and grooms the next guy to take over in 2-3 years.

Saleh isn't that guy. Sorry. Nice guy, like the defensive turnaround, but this is an offensive league. The Jets need not only an offensive mind running the show, but they need an elite one. It's time. This franchise is a disaster; probably the worst in all of sports. You fix that with people that know how to fix it, not with people that hope to maybe figure that out one day.

Get the house in order. Overpay. Whatever it takes. I promise you, anything else is just another half-measure. The Jets cycle will continue on in perpetuity until it happens. You want the QB, you need someone who knows how to get one first.

What about the molly?  Isn't there a solid chance that Payton flames out Urban Meyer style?  I mean it's not a given like Urban Meyer, but certainly a possiblity.

[JetPotato]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

$20 million a year for a Head Coach  (without any assistants) is an awful lot.  Not my money, of course, and no cap on coaches, but that's a ton of money regardless.

And "minimum of 2 1st rounders" for a Coach is also an awful lot.

There is no guarantee a guy who had success in one spot (with a future HOF QB in hand) will have the same success somewhere else, with no QB in hand.

I'm not saying no.  I'm saying wow, that's a heavy cost for what we get.

And Parcells is irrelevant to this discussion.  Just because he has some small success here (with a long lasting negative effect due to his GM'ing and mishandling of succession) doesn't mean Peyton will or won't.  Different guys, different situations, different eras.

Payton's proven track record of success against Saleh's defensive background and no track record of anything whatsoever as a head coach means Payton's odds of success are much higher than Saleh's. Period.

**** THE MONEY. **** THE DRAFT PICKS. It all gets wasted anyway if we keep operating the way this organization has been for the past 50 years, with the exception of the brief Parcells era.

You'll see when Denver returns to respectability quickly and the Jets do their Jets thing for yet another decade. I promise you, we're going to be calling for a new coach come January 2024. Might as well go for a guy that's available now that you know for a fact is capable. 

This is the way. I don't expect it. But I'm telling you right now... this is the next big wasted opportunity. I'm taking receipts.

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

As I mentioned Payton will be the league's first $20M/year HC and Woody is not writing that check, even if it didn't mean also paying Saleh $6M/year to not coach the team for the next two years.

Call me crazy but I don’t want anything to do with a HC who’s never won a thing without Drew Brees in the NFCS.  And usually choked in the playoffs.  

[JetPotato]

2 hours ago, Kleckineau said:

WOW for Payton? No way.

I think Doug Peterson is better and Andy Reid would command 30 mill.

Doug Peterson and Andy Reid aren't available. Comments like this blow my mind in their stupidity. And why the hell does anyone who isn't signing the checks care about what the coach gets paid?

[BigRy56]

Not sure how he is worth that type of money. He worked with a HOF QB in Drew Brees and had success with him... but once it came time to try and build a new Saints offense, he bounced. Coaches don't count against the cap though, so it in the end it doesn't matter

[Jet Nut]

9 minutes ago, JetPotato said:

Payton's proven track record of success against Saleh's defensive background and no track record of anything whatsoever as a head coach means Payton's odds of success are much higher than Saleh's. Period.

**** THE MONEY. **** THE DRAFT PICKS. It all gets wasted anyway if we keep operating the way this organization has been for the past 50 years, with the exception of the brief Parcells era.

You'll see when Denver returns to respectability quickly and the Jets do their Jets thing for yet another decade. I promise you, we're going to be calling for a new coach come January 2024. Might as well go for a guy that's available now that you know for a fact is capable. 

This is the way. I don't expect it. But I'm telling you right now... this is the next big wasted opportunity. I'm taking receipts.

What does mean?  That a defensive coach knows nothing about offense I guess.  Because Shula, Parcells, Cowher, Belichick etc are from offensive backgrounds?  

[JetPotato]

2 hours ago, Alka said:

Payton must have an ego the size of Manhattan.  No non-player is worth that much money.  You can be a bad coach and still win with good players, but you will never win with a good head coach and bad players.

Personally, I wouldn't give up 1 first round draft pick for him.  He won 1 Super Bowl, correct?  Not good enough for 2 first round draft picks.

How many Super Bowls have our last 7 coaches won?

Clutch those pearly draft picks, folks. They have meant so much to us the past 50 years. 

[PFSIKH]

3 hours ago, slats said:

For all his talent and advantages, he lead the Saints to 9 playoff appearances, 7 division championships, 3 NFC Championship appearances and one Super Bowl. In his 16 NFL seasons he won more than one playoff game in a season exactly once. 
 
I’m not saying he doesn’t have some genuine ability, but I am saying that he’s overrated as ****. He’s no cure-all. 

I think Saints Nation would argue they were jobbed by the refs a few times and probably should have at least one more Superbowl appearance, but I digress.

I think if you remove the Belichick standard or Bill Walsh over a shorter time, what Peyton did is good.  Measured against Bill he was a failure per say.  Measured against Tomlin, a peer, you can argue he is the 2nd or 3rd best coach of his generation.  

All I am saying, with a eventual HofF QB, you should win at a high rate like he did.  

[Sonny Werblin]

4 hours ago, ChewyandtheJets said:

Hello.  Nice to meet you.  Please tell me you are joking?  Another first time HC from the defensive side of the ball.   That would just about be it for me:

Al Groh

Herm Edwards

Eric Mangini

Rex Ryan

Todd Bowles

Robert Saleh

 

Really don’t understand the allure of first timers taking years to learn on the job when guys like Mcarthy and Peterson and even Mike Shanahan with many years of experience and proven track records of success get passed by in whatever process the Jets run   In what business or world does that make any sense?

 

It doesn't look as bad when you compare it to second time HC's from the O side of the ball

Rich Kotite

Adam Gase

or first time HC's from the O side of the ball

Joe Walton

Bruce Coslet

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

1 hour ago, Hex said:

I doubt he's Andy Reid, level, but both of them have only 1 SB win despite a HOF career

That's wild. I would've guessed he won 4 SB's or something lol

[JetPotato]

18 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

What about the molly?  Isn't there a solid chance that Payton flames out Urban Meyer style?  I mean it's not a give like Urban Meyer, but certainly a possiblity.

Not sure what you mean. Molly is what I take to deal with this?

Has Urban Meyer won a Super Bowl? 

[JetPotato]

17 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

What does this even mean? 
Back to the lunacy that a defensive coach knows nothing about offense I guess.  Because Shula, Parcells, Cowher, Belichick etc are from offensive backgrounds?  

Cool straw man.

The argument is that ROBERT SALEH doesn't know anything about offense, which makes up about 5% of my point.

[bitonti]

23 minutes ago, Edgy said:

I don't get this take, Bit.   

Yes, Woody is going to make literally Billions from this team if/when he sells it, and he gets $$$ every year too.  Luck sperm club gets lucky buying a team at the right time.

But I don't know of any actual instances of him refusing to pay if there was a clear way to improve the team other than the fan generated 'Woody is cheap''.   By all accounts they spared no expense for One Jets Drive, the facilities, and anything they need out there on the training side.   

If anything, he's looking to be faster/impatient to win before he goes into the 'SB before I die' zone - and available, proven, experienced head coaches are more scared of him meddling and not letting them do their thing than being cheap.

 

I did not use the word cheap. There's just no reason to overspend on a Payton when winning and losing pays the same. 

The NFL is communism on the highest level. The jets do not get paid by the win they get paid by the attempt 

Understand that financial reality and you'll understand everything you need to know about Jets football 

Guys like Jerry Jones, Bob Kraft and David tepper are willing to go the extra step to try to win, I'm not sure if woody cares one way or the other 

[JetPotato]

12 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

I think Saints Nation would argue they were jobbed by the refs a few times and probably should have at least one more Superbowl appearance, but I digress.

I think if you remove the Belichick standard or Bill Walsh over a shorter time, what Peyton did is good.  Measured against Bill he was a failure per say.  Measured against Tomlin, a peer, you can argue he is the 2nd or 3rd best coach of his generation.  

All I am saying, with a eventual HofF QB, you should win at a high rate like he did.  

It's so weird that Jets fans "don't want what Sean Payton gave the Saints". I'd kill for that. WTF have the Jets done? IN OVER FIFTY GOD DAMN YEARS?

"WeLl, hE hAd A hAlL oF fAmE qUaRtErBaCk" Idiots. We don't even have a starting QB. And we're not going to get one until we put people in charge who understand how to.

[slats]

11 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

I think Saints Nation would argue they were jobbed by the refs a few times and probably should have at least one more Superbowl appearance, but I digress.

I think if you remove the Belichick standard or Bill Walsh over a shorter time, what Peyton did is good.  Measured against Bill he was a failure per say.  Measured against Tomlin, a peer, you can argue he is the 2nd or 3rd best coach of his generation.  

All I am saying, with a eventual HofF QB, you should win at a high rate like he did.  

Again, I’m not saying he sucks, I’m saying there’s no way he’s worth two first round picks and $20M/year.