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Rosenblatt article on offensive collapse: Zach sucked, players preffered Mike White


T0mShane

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1 minute ago, JiFields said:

So?  lol  This is just another strawman that has no substance behind it.

I don't see it that way, but I think you have already put Fields in the HOF, and I don't even think hes big second contract worthy yet, and I wanted Fields over ZW. 

Your acting like there was no other team on the planet who would have taken ZW over Fields, and its wrong

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1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

I was a big proponent of taking Fields. But I ask this simple question. If Fields were here with MLF would he have adjusted the offense like the Bears did the second half of this season to take advantage of his skills. 

There is a lot to this.  Chicago had to adjust their offense just as much to fit the worst OL in Football as they did having to take advantage of Fields strengths.  Watch some of the film of Chicago, people knock Fields for all the sacks he takes but I'm not being hyperbolic when I say this, I've literally never seen a worse OL in pass protection, reminds me of the Anthony Clement days but worse.  They dont have WR's who can get open, and they dont have an OL who can protect, it's wild just how bad they were, so I think it's a bit misleading when people say they only adjusted it for Fields

That said, if you watched any of Ryan Day's offense, there are actually lot of similar components to what Lil Mikey was running here, they rarely if ever, asked Justin Fields to run.  His offense features a lot zone/outside zone runs w/ a short to mid range passing attack and a ton of mesh concepts.   So I think Fields would have excelled in this offense w/out adjustments.  That said, Lil Mikey showed some versatility when Streveler was in the game so I think there were some potential wrinkles they could have made to take advantage of Fields legs as well. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I don't see it that way, but I think you have already put Fields in the HOF, and I don't even think hes big second contract worthy yet, and I wanted Fields over ZW. 

Your acting like there was no other team on the planet who would have taken ZW over Fields, and its wrong

Yes, I've put in Fields into the HOF already, Franky!  Good call, smh

I dont really care what other teams would have done, there all idiots too.  I'm commenting on what happened here and why I think it was stupid.

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6 hours ago, Dcat said:

Yet another one who thinks it's all Zach's fault and that LaFleur is a victim.  Wow.  That's just insane.  I never want to see Zach Wilson again in a Jets uni... thats how bad he is... but I don't con myself into thinking that LaFleur was competent as OC.  

I think LaFleur can at least be competent 

Zach Wilson is a bust

There is a lowlight reel of ZW on YouTube showing open WRs being missed by 5 yards and/or being led into decapitation zones with hospital balls

LaFleur was forced to take the fall 

With a healthy Stafford and Kupp, he will produce pts in LA

Wilson will be out of the league soon

I’m sure Douglas and Saleh would be thrilled to know there are fans out there buying what they’re selling, who actually believe ZW is merely the innocent victim of sub-optimal playcalling and “instant coffee era expectation” or whatever Saleh’s excuse du jour is

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50 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Phil Mushnick is often a Grandpa Simpson figure here in NY, bemoaning things that may not have been really all that great in the past as opposed to 2023. But he dropped this tidbit in his NY Post column earlier this week. This could not have endeared Wilson to his teammates. It's a bad look; he wasn't disabled, he had a very minor knee injury. Numerous people have noted all season while White, Flacco and Streveler appear often to be talking during games, but Wilson looks like he mostly keeps to himself. Don't get that.

"Zach didn’t get guidance from QB vets, or LaFleur

Interesting that recently dismissed Jets offensive coordinator Mike LaFleur last week said QB Zach Wilson would have benefitted had he been on the sidelines learning from veteran QBs as they played.

That brought to mind the tough-to-shake images from this season’s Jets preseason telecast on CBS. Several times they showed an injured Wilson seated in a PSL Stadium luxury box, having a drink and a good time while watching the game with friends.

 

Seemed Wilson should have been in school that day, on the sideline or in a booth with an assistant coach, learning something about defenses and more about quarterbacking, perhaps to pick up something that could benefit him and his team during the season.

But it was time wasted.

Another fella who I’d like to be seated beside during a football game: Jets QB Mike White."

 

 

Seriously who allowed this? He barely played last preseason then tweaks a knee this year and sits upstairs with his entourage? I don’t get it.

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1 hour ago, JiFields said:

Imagine having Justin Fields and Zach Wilson in front of you and you own a sports team; one dude is an all world athlete, considered the #2 QB prospect on the planet just slightly behind "a generational talent", who played 2 of the best programs in the country and you witnessed go head to head w/ said "generational talent" and the dude whipped the floor in comparison, while putting up one of the gutsiest performance in college Football history where he ended up throwing as many TD's (6) than incompletions (6) and then a few weeks later, you get to meet these 2 in person and you're llike yeah, give me this petite little kid from Utah who plays nobody and kind of sucks and doesnt do anything that translates well over this all world stud athlete Adonis w/ a Harvard brain.

Literally, the 7 year old picking teams on the playground would have made more sound decision.

Probable is they both suck.

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23 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

I think LaFleur can at least be competent 

Zach Wilson is a bust

There is a lowlight reel of ZW on YouTube showing open WRs being missed by 5 yards and/or being led into decapitation zones with hospital balls

LaFleur was forced to take the fall 

With a healthy Stafford and Kupp, he will produce pts in LA

Wilson will be out of the league soon

I’m sure Douglas and Saleh would be thrilled to know there are fans out there buying what they’re selling, who actually believe ZW is merely the innocent victim of sub-optimal playcalling and “instant coffee era expectation” or whatever Saleh’s excuse du jour is

Sure LaFleur has a chance for success.  He's not stupid.  But LaFleur has some personality/social issues to work on before he can be an effective leader on any team, Rams or otherwise.  If he solves that problem, then, and only then, does he have a chance for NFL success.  But if he hides from interaction with his players, as he clearly has done at Florham Park for 2 years now, then he will continue to fail.

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1 hour ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Did MLF talk to Zach about this in detail before the game?  Or was he Major Majoring with his “game plan preparation”.

From all accounts, MLF is Major Major reincarnated.  Players can only speak to him in his office when he's not there.

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On 1/19/2023 at 8:48 AM, T0mShane said:

Rosenblatt in The Athletic with a little deep dive into what happened with LaFleur. Pretty much what we observed and heard from @football guy and @Mogglez, but the takeaway is that Zach sucked, the receivers didn’t want to play with him, Saleh was a weak, passive jellyfish, LaFleur took the brunt of the blame even though he hated Zach, and when White got hurt against the Bills, the season was over. Good read, even if it’s well covered ground for us. 
 

https://theathletic.com/4091050/2023/01/19/jets-offense-zach-wilson-robert-saleh-mike-lafleur/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=5932978

a quote:

Meanwhile, Zach Wilson sought to find the “fun” in football again. He called some former NFL quarterbacks who hit rough patches early in their careers for advice: Kurt Warner, Drew Brees and Young. Warner told The Athletic that he “enjoyed” talking to Wilson and getting to know him, though he wanted to keep their conversation private. He did say that Wilson’s willingness to make those calls is a positive sign.

“I think there’s a lot of things to learn when you’re open to believing you still have something to learn, and areas you can grow,” Warner said. “I respect him a lot for reaching out and listening … (but) it’s one thing to reach out and listen, and it’s another thing to be willing to do what it takes to change.”

USATSI_19608008-scaled.jpg
 
Mike LaFleur’s offense initially took off under Mike White (above), but it crashed after White’s rib injury pushed Zach Wilson back into the starting lineup. (Mark Konezny / USA Today)

The Jets had planned to keep Wilson benched through the end of the season, but White suffered fractured ribs against the Bills in Week 14. Saleh named Wilson the starter for Week 15. In practice that week, Wilson threw a series of incompletions during team drills that frustrated Jets receivers, and the struggles carried into games.

This just confirms to me how special Breece Hall was before the injury. 

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7 hours ago, Dunnie said:

The second part is the inability to develop him.... Which in my mind is forgivable if there were a plan in place that failed .. seems like there was no plan and Lafleur left it up to Zach to figure it out.

There was an initial plan unfortunately that initial plan passed away before training camp last year.

Then yes it seemed it was more fly by the seat of your pants instead of forming a plan B.

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Eh I dunno.  Seems people were still pretty hopeful last offseason considering how obvious it is now that he sucks and always sucked.  Sometimes you just miss on draft picks.  It happens.  Even 2nd overall picks. 

 

Also hard disagree that we "need" Carr or Rodgers.  I think we "need" to invest heavy into the OL.  From there we need a solid QB.  Doesn't have to be one of the top guys, but it has to be someone significantly better than White at least.  I have a hard time believing we're ****ed unless we get one of those 2 guys though.

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23 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

There was an initial plan unfortunately that initial plan passed away before training camp last year.

Then yes it seemed it was more fly by the seat of your pants instead of forming a plan B.

which is a major problem and grounds for termination for every single person involved. A 2nd round draft pick at QB is a major, major investment by an organization. Anyone not on board with trying to make that investment successful is not worthy of being retained.

Imagine a real estate company making a major investment in a commercial building, and then doing absolutely nothing to make sure it was successful because the original guy who was responsible, quit. Its asinine.

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11 minutes ago, bonkertons said:

Eh I dunno.  Seems people were still pretty hopeful last offseason considering how obvious it is now that he sucks and always sucked.  Sometimes you just miss on draft picks.  It happens.  Even 2nd overall picks. 

 

Also hard disagree that we "need" Carr or Rodgers.  I think we "need" to invest heavy into the OL.  From there we need a solid QB.  Doesn't have to be one of the top guys, but it has to be someone significantly better than White at least.  I have a hard time believing we're ****ed unless we get one of those 2 guys though.

I don't think we are getting a meaningful upgarde over Mike White, maybe slight upgrade, but nothing meaningful. I do agree that fixing the O line should be the priority for any QB who comes in, but I don't think the fans are going to sit back and allow that

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1 hour ago, JiFields said:

Meh, disagree.  J.T. O'Sullivan also had Zach last on his QB rankings.  Many of the talking heads were completely baffled by Wilson over Fields.  You just had the loud mouth blowhards trying to look cool saying stupid sh*t like, yeah id, maybe really QB1 in the draft ie; Chris dumbass Simms.

We dont even know his measurables because he skipped out on trying to prove he was an athlete for running around the throwing the ball far like a doofus in short shorts.  His tape, was bad and all of this was very predictable.

There were many of us who wanted to trade back and build around Sam.  Myself included.  I only wanted Fields, if, they were taking a QB because it really was obvious Zach would be a disaster. 

 

 

Yes there were some who didn't like Zach (correctly so).  There were many others who did like Zach and not just Simms.    Everyone seems to be making it out that no one liked Zach in the draft and it was very obvious he would fail and that is false.   I think even PFF or one of those sites that uses projections had Zach as almost a can't miss prospect.  As for bring back Sam, you even stated yourself, you would skip watching the next season if Sam was back.   I know most of that is just being a fan and we would still watch anyway.  I probably said it myself many times, knowing I would still watch the trainwreck.  

His measurables were fine.  That was never a question and his tape was ok.   I'm not talking pocket presence or throws under pressure, there was none on his tape.  The one thing everyone keeps harping on is him missing the easy throws.  That didn't happen in College, so why is it happening now?

 

Fields was never a sure thing either. He still isn't a sure thing.  He can run, but his passing is still questionable.   

 

 

We can agree to disagree.   Every QB has question marks, except the rare few.  Most are going to fail.

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4 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I don't think we are getting a meaningful upgarde over Mike White, maybe slight upgrade, but nothing meaningful. I do agree that fixing the O line should be the priority for any QB who comes in, but I don't think the fans are going to sit back and allow that

I guess it depends what you see as a meaningful upgrade.  Jimmy would be.  Brady would be.  I guess Dalton would be a slight upgrade but yeah, not the type of upgrade fans would be excited about.  

 

Still think our best bet is short term option, attempt to fill any remaining holes you have this year in the draft/UFA, and then trade whatever draft capital you need to move up in 2024 to get one of the big QB prospects.  Mainly Williams or Maye.  As sh*tty as our track record is, I still think the only way we ever see a star QB here long-term(not talking Lamar, who would probably be great for 1 or 2 years before either falling off or getting hurt) is to draft one.  

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1 hour ago, Beaver said:

Yes there were some who didn't like Zach (correctly so).  There were many others who did like Zach and not just Simms.    Everyone seems to be making it out that no one liked Zach in the draft and it was very obvious he would fail and that is false.   I think even PFF or one of those sites that uses projections had Zach as almost a can't miss prospect.  As for bring back Sam, you even stated yourself, you would skip watching the next season if Sam was back.   I know most of that is just being a fan and we would still watch anyway.  I probably said it myself many times, knowing I would still watch the trainwreck.  

His measurables were fine.  That was never a question and his tape was ok.   I'm not talking pocket presence or throws under pressure, there was none on his tape.  The one thing everyone keeps harping on is him missing the easy throws.  That didn't happen in College, so why is it happening now?

 

Fields was never a sure thing either. He still isn't a sure thing.  He can run, but his passing is still questionable.   

 

 

We can agree to disagree.   Every QB has question marks, except the rare few.  Most are going to fail.

We can agree to disagree but there were many of us that knew Zach would fail.  And my final wish was to build around Sam, but if they were taking a QB, to take Fields.  All good, pointless this at this time but you'll notice I never listen to "experts", I always make my own opinions.

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3 hours ago, Bugg said:

Phil Mushnick is often a Grandpa Simpson figure here in NY, bemoaning things that may not have been really all that great in the past as opposed to 2023. But he dropped this tidbit in his NY Post column earlier this week. This could not have endeared Wilson to his teammates. It's a bad look; he wasn't disabled, he had a very minor knee injury. Numerous people have noted all season while White, Flacco and Streveler appear often to be talking during games, but Wilson looks like he mostly keeps to himself. Don't get that.

"Zach didn’t get guidance from QB vets, or LaFleur

Interesting that recently dismissed Jets offensive coordinator Mike LaFleur last week said QB Zach Wilson would have benefitted had he been on the sidelines learning from veteran QBs as they played.

That brought to mind the tough-to-shake images from this season’s Jets preseason telecast on CBS. Several times they showed an injured Wilson seated in a PSL Stadium luxury box, having a drink and a good time while watching the game with friends.

 

Seemed Wilson should have been in school that day, on the sideline or in a booth with an assistant coach, learning something about defenses and more about quarterbacking, perhaps to pick up something that could benefit him and his team during the season.

But it was time wasted.

Another fella who I’d like to be seated beside during a football game: Jets QB Mike White."

 

 

It's pretty clear to me that Zack was his own worst enemy.  I don't know about entitled or ADHD or the like but JD and Co definitely missed something huge in their pre-draft evaluation.    

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2 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Seriously who allowed this? He barely played last preseason then tweaks a knee this year and sits upstairs with his entourage? I don’t get it.

I could be naive , but I seriously doubt it was purely ZW decision to sit up in the Sky Boxes. I'd like to think the CS had the final say on that.  

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4 hours ago, JiFields said:

Imagine having Justin Fields and Zach Wilson in front of you and you own a sports team; one dude is an all world athlete, considered the #2 QB prospect on the planet just slightly behind "a generational talent", who played 2 of the best programs in the country and you witnessed go head to head w/ said "generational talent" and the dude whipped the floor in comparison, while putting up one of the gutsiest performance in college Football history where he ended up throwing as many TD's (6) than incompletions (6) and then a few weeks later, you get to meet these 2 in person and you're llike yeah, give me this petite little kid from Utah who plays nobody and kind of sucks and doesnt do anything that translates well over this all world stud athlete Adonis w/ a Harvard brain.

Literally, the 7 year old picking teams on the playground would have made more sound decision.

I was all for trading down, myself. As I remember it, the knocks on Fields were that 1. Ohio State QBs suck and 2. He had a severe learning disability. If they were dead-set on taking a QB there, it should have been Fields based strictly on the traits and the simple fact that Fields succeeded on the biggest stages in college football. That said, the idiot Jets did all their legwork on Zach via Zoom, and you could see how they could convince themselves he’d be a media and fan darling in this market. Ultimately, once they missed out on Lawrence, they should have been looking to trade out. They would have ****ed up Fields, too. 

4 hours ago, Matt39 said:

I think it’s pretty out in the open now his teammates at BYU didn’t like him. He lost to Coastal Carolina. Played like crap. Took a cheap shot in the game and his team didn’t exactly come to his defense. He was watching preseason games from a luxury suite this year while he was hurt (which was one of the more bizarre things I’ve ever seen). Now the latest stuff where the Jets locker room didn’t like him at all either. What the hell did the Jets do predraft? The same goes for Becton. I mean us casuals could tell from afar these guys had personalities that weren’t going to work. I mean just that alone was a big enough flag to avoid.

I went back and looked at Douglas’ draft record with Philly, and he makes a lot of these mistakes—drafts weird personalities that aren’t exactly grinders—Andre Dillard, Wentz, etc. I wonder if he’s just too committed to traits and doesn’t put enough weight on basic toughness and mental fortitude. I remember you pointing out when Mims was drafted, his phone call with Douglas was funereal. 

3 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

The BYU conclusions you are drawing are T0m approved, but wrong lol.

The entire team went on the field baseball fight style.  Did you expect them to throw punches? 

Open competition for QB so the team did not vote either QB captain while it worked itself out.  

I watched sideline stuff at a game and Zach seemed very well liked at BYU.  
 

I think he’d be fine in the locker room if he was playing better.  He’s not a red flag at all for that.

Counterpoint: His best friend from BYU stole his girlfriend

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24 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I could be naive , but I seriously doubt it was purely ZW decision to sit up in the Sky Boxes. I'd like to think the CS had the final say on that.  

This is how bad it’s gotten.  Debating minutiae like this.

I don’t care where Wilson sits as long as he’s sitting and not playing. ?

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3 hours ago, JiFields said:

There is a lot to this.  Chicago had to adjust their offense just as much to fit the worst OL in Football as they did having to take advantage of Fields strengths.  Watch some of the film of Chicago, people knock Fields for all the sacks he takes but I'm not being hyperbolic when I say this, I've literally never seen a worse OL in pass protection, reminds me of the Anthony Clement days but worse.  They dont have WR's who can get open, and they dont have an OL who can protect, it's wild just how bad they were, so I think it's a bit misleading when people say they only adjusted it for Fields

That said, if you watched any of Ryan Day's offense, there are actually lot of similar components to what Lil Mikey was running here, they rarely if ever, asked Justin Fields to run.  His offense features a lot zone/outside zone runs w/ a short to mid range passing attack and a ton of mesh concepts.   So I think Fields would have excelled in this offense w/out adjustments.  That said, Lil Mikey showed some versatility when Streveler was in the game so I think there were some potential wrinkles they could have made to take advantage of Fields legs as well. 

 

Watching the Jets play this season, Wilson had plenty of openings to run the ball where he simply refused to take them. I don’t know if it’s his programming or if he’s afraid to get hurt, but the dude was allergic to running forward. Appeared in nine games, had 28 rushes, which is crazy for a player who faces as much man to man defense as he does and has the speed he does.

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6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Douglas’s drafts in Philly: 

 

A4D80A09-4090-4BDE-B3F7-800B5170C10D.jpeg

I don't think he got there until after the 2016 draft was over.  I remember what scared me was reading all the production over traits stuff they said he was going to push that listed Pumphrey as the poster child for Douglas.  That does not seem to be the case.  I am a big Mack Hollins fan (Rockville MD) he kicked around, but finally had a very nice year with Carr and the Raiders.  I really liked him when I was watching Trubisky videos trying to figure out how that guy was going at the top of the draft.

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6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Watching the Jets play this season, Wilson had plenty of openings to run the ball where he simply refused to take them. I don’t know if it’s his programming or if he’s afraid to get hurt, but the dude was allergic to running forward. Appeared in nine games, had 28 rushes, which is crazy for a dude who faces as much man to man defense as he does and has the speed he does.

You keep making this about character assassination and it’s keeps coming out he was getting next level coaching like, if the first 2 reads aren’t open, RUN ?

He’s a hot mess, head to toe, I just don’t see why it always had to circle around to the hot take stuff , skip. 

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7 minutes ago, Larz said:

You keep making this about character assassination and it’s keeps coming out he was getting next level coaching like, if the first 2 reads aren’t open, RUN ?

He’s a hot mess, head to toe, I just don’t see why it always had to circle around to the hot take stuff , skip. 

Two reads and run is how Jalen Hurts developed into a great QB. 

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