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Rosenblatt article on offensive collapse: Zach sucked, players preffered Mike White


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1 minute ago, bitonti said:

He did adapt and dumbed down the offense for Zach 

Zach is just that bad. 

But did he really , he adapted within the confines of his system.  Everyone with eyes can see Zach is much better when rolling out and outside the pocket . How many RPO's did MLF employ , how many times did they shift the pocket left or right . All MLF did was narrow the field and options(reads) while still trying to run behind a banged up o-line. If anything his dumbed down approach hurt more than it helped. 

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Lesson one zac Sucks

Lesson two never listen to your players in who they like, as Mike White also sucked.

Lesson three, oc is the worst job in pro football.  You take all of the blame when things go sideways.  Have a bad year as an oc?  You're fired, have a bad year as a dc?  Oh you just did not have the talent.

Lesson four, buy your oline cheap sh*tty gifts as they don;t really care about 'their QB'

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8 minutes ago, derp said:

Yeah, so I had no issue with MLF being let go. And I get that idealistically, you want to prioritize the development of a young quarterback over the short-term roster. But you ducked the larger point I was making, which was that due to flawed roster construction LaFleur was not put into a position where it was straightforward to put another starter out there. You pretty much acknowledged it with the bold. Common theme with this organization right now. Coaches could've done their job better, roster construction makes doing the right thing complicated.

Sure, LaFleur was either negligent or naive. Douglas was negligent first. The need to have a veteran on the roster was glaringly obvious and that's something that happens in March before Wilson's even picked

The only person who hasnt failed Zach Wilson, is Zach Wilson.

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1 minute ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I continue to believe that while players were frustrated by Zach's poor play and wanted Mike White to start, they did not hate Zach Wilson.  I've never bought into that being true and I saw nothing of Zach's interactions with teammates to make me think they hated him. Yes, they were frustrated with his poor play, but these guys have been playing football a lot of years and their mental default is to support a teammate. 

I think the coach bred resentment in Zach...everyone else on the team was held accountable Mims was banished to the practice squad for 6 months Moore was phazed out after complaing on Twitter all while Zach was throwing balls into the ground during a playoff run...the kid never should have been anointed and coddled. 

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1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

But did he really , he adapted within the confines of his system.  Everyone with eyes can see Zach is much better when rolling out and outside the pocket . How many RPO's did MLF employ , how many times did they shift the pocket left or right . All MLF did was narrow the field and options(reads) while still trying to run behind a banged up o-line. If anything his dumbed down approach hurt more than it helped. 

I have eyes.  I hear this story about rolling out about every sh*tty QB we have ever have.  I watched Zach WIlson on designed roll outs launching lollipops straight up into the air.  Throws that became 50-50 balls for no good reason.  I am not sure that I could disagree more. Roll outs cut the field in half at best and are not a sustainable strategy, but Zach WIlson was not succeeding when they were called.  

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Just now, Larz said:

Whatever the need is to scapegoat everything on Zach , Moore and Wilson hated lafleur too. When you can’t score a TD in a month it’s not all Zach’s parents. It’s just not. There is a lot of blame to go around, JD, Saleh, lafleur, Zach, Mike, Moore, injuries to oline, Tomlinson stealing money and where was Flacco veteraning this thing up ?

 

 

I saw Flacco In the Dolphins game pissed off because it took the jets forever to call a play and he had to burn a timeout. Sale was like “relax it’s ok”. Well it’s not ok. He can’t wait to get outta here.

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10 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Not denying everyone shares blame here. I'm certainly  hoping the interviews for this OC are dramatically different . With questions like what is your plan for  1) Zach, 2) Carr or another vet QB. Will you adapt your plan to fit the players and have the ability to change on the fly if injuries or bad performance dictate it, 

The real problem is Woody, it all starts at the top. We keep doing the same stupid things as an organization and never learn from our mistakes. The only constant is Woody.

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14 minutes ago, football guy said:

I would agree with you, but I also think Saleh hired Greg Knapp to be that guy. Saleh doesn't have a QB background and he shouldn't expect to micromanage in areas he's not fluent in. 

Not being expected to and not being able to when needed aren't the same thing.  
 

The plan failed and a level of "micro-management" was required to fix and stabilize the team.   
 

If he doesn't have the capability of fixing it he doesn't get off the hook for a failed plan.

I think the excuse that he hired Knapp isn't relevant unless he was capable of fixing it.

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34 minutes ago, undertow said:

So you are telling me when Zach was throwing for 140 yards, missing open recievers by 10 feet and running around in circles he wasn't really playing well????????   

No, it was all the bad coaching he got...and it would have been totally different if Knapp didnt tragically pass.  

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1 minute ago, derp said:

It's pretty remarkable that in 3 months we've gone from pushing back on questions regarding whether Zach Wilson was going to turn out well to "well 18 months ago Mike LaFleur should've known to start Mike White over Zach Wilson".

Some of us have been criticizing the decision to start him off the bat since before he was drafted. Think LaFleur is a handy scapegoat for Joe Douglas and all those who thought Wilson was going to be a superstar.

I get the reasoning for starting him. 2021 was a throw away/development year. For the whole team, not just QB. So let's get him the in game experience and let him learn from it. 

What they didn't expect to happen was for him not be able to complete a dump off pass to the RBs. Or completely sail passes over the TE's head. I still don't think that would have been solved with sitting for a year. His main issue is handling pressure. Unless you're taking off the red jersey, idk how you're solving that. 

This whole plan/rebuild would be nice if he was even playing at a Mac Jones level. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Was he?

Is there an O-Co who'd have kicked ass running a 4th string O-line protecting a broken-ribs-but-still-playing JAG 2nd string QB/ Check-cashing 3rd string QB handing off to his 5th string RB?

I'm unconvinced the late-season collapse was because of Offensive scheme/play-calling, given the poop-show of a offensive roster we trotted out most weeks.  

You cannot polish a turd, and the talent on our O (outside of a WR or two) in those late season games (including Zach, White and Flacco most of all) was just not up to NFL standards.

We'll start next year healthy, perhaps, but if we wind up playing as deep as we had to in this stretch, whomever we convince to be O-Co next year will be just as bad off.  No matter who he is.

Again, you cannot polish a turd.  100% healthy, we're just above a turd.  Mass injuries, we're 100% turd on O.

It's a mixed bag, but I see backups having moderate success all over the league. 

To me, the team collapsed after the Bears game, and in particular, the offense just totally fell apart. 3 offensive touchdowns in the 6 games of a playoff race. Think about that. 

Even in the Mike White games, we scored one TD in Minny and one TD in Buffalo and then zero in Seattle (granted, MW was hurt in that game). Just not good enough. 

I will also just say that I have long thought MLF was a poor in-game play-caller who made poor adjustments. And how many games have we failed to score in the first quarter, let alone on the first drive? 

IDK, never been the biggest MLF fan. 

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3 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

I get the reasoning for starting him. 2021 was a throw away/development year. For the whole team, not just QB. So let's get him the in game experience and let him learn from it. 

What they didn't expect to happen was for him not be able to complete a dump off pass to the RBs. Or completely sail passes over the TE's head. I still don't think that would have been solved with sitting for a year. His main issue is handling pressure. Unless you're taking off the red jersey, idk how you're solving that. 

This whole plan/rebuild would be nice if he was even playing at a Mac Jones level. 

 

There aren't throw away years with QB development, though. Guys develop bad habits. There's a quarterback every few years who can overcome poor circumstances, but those guys are rare. And it's not the guy who played behind an elite OL at BYU against a soft, pandemic year schedule. You protect him from the bad roster, help him develop footwork, decision making, and knowledge of the system over that year, and let him play with a better supporting group when he's more prepared. This is easy, easy stuff.

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1 hour ago, PepPep said:

JD is JD. He's no Ozzy but he also isn't Tanny or 'coffee cup' Macc. I think people need to realize that. For better or wore, he does things his own way.

JD has done a good job of signing players to non-commit contracts that don't put this team in 'cap hell'. You can't do that and NOT have seasons where there will be multiple FA's. So yes, one of our starting OT's and our C are FA's. Our OTHER OT (Brown) is under contract but hurt and the depth behind him, while not the most reliable, is healthy and will be competing for starting spots (Becton, Mitchell). Our C is a FA but this might be a good thing. He was solid but not stellar and there are a number of options in FA that could potentially be better (or just as good) options. Bradbury, Bozeman, Pocic, Clapp, Blythe, etc. 

As far as our QB situation. Yes, JD takes the hit on this. But it wasn't for lack of trying. He DID use a #2 overall pick on a QB. That guy IS on the roster. JD just whiffed and now Zach is simply not good enough to start. And again, despite that whiff, the fact that we are not tied to a massively overpriced QB that stinks (and yes, Zach is overpaid and stinks), and have SOME freedom to go after a FA, could be a GOOD thing. 

JD had some rough draft selections and whiffed on some FA signings but he is the best GM we have had in a very long time. He doesn't mortgage the future, he almost always wins in trades, he doesn't over-commit to FA signing and shows patience during the FA period.

And if you think he can't clear the cap space he needs to keep the critical FAs he needs or bring in the critical FAs he wants, you are mistaken. There are a ton of moves he can make.    

 

Unless the Jets foolishly trade for Rodgers and take on his $60 million annual salary. Then there is no money for any free agents......

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2 hours ago, football guy said:

Agreed. By all accounts MLF was the passive one. At the end of the day Saleh relies on MLF to run the offense and keep him in the loop on important developments. Instead of addressing necessary beliefs he kept them to himself/told other staffers. I personally believe MLF can be a very good coordinator one day but he lacked the balls to make critical decisions here... 

and for sh*t's sake, MLF must learn how to make eye-contact and communicate effectively with his players.  The dude is socially inept for an NFL Coordinator position, which requires strong leadership skills.  MLF has a personality issue that he must address to be successful in this league.

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21 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

I get the reasoning for starting him. 2021 was a throw away/development year. For the whole team, not just QB. So let's get him the in game experience and let him learn from it. 

What they didn't expect to happen was for him not be able to complete a dump off pass to the RBs. Or completely sail passes over the TE's head. I still don't think that would have been solved with sitting for a year. His main issue is handling pressure. Unless you're taking off the red jersey, idk how you're solving that. 

This whole plan/rebuild would be nice if he was even playing at a Mac Jones level. 

 

Right before the season the most typed phrase on max site was "take the next step" 

Featured in statements like "As long as Zach takes the next step this is a 10 win team" 

It was such a given it would happen, no one questioned that it wouldn't. Zach development became an article of faith and anyone with a criticism was labeled as a non believer infidel 

Well He never took that next step, now his stats are historically bad and they are looking at year 3 of "take the next step" 

Year 4 people are going to say he's had only 1 year in Hackett system needs to take the next step 

The guy cant read the field, can't step up under pressure, looks scared to take a hit, misses games because he's physically fragile and can't even set up his feet when he throws 

Now we're watching the Jets fire MLF and bring in worse coaches to replace him 

This is a real life example of how some people get 1 chance to succeed and others get an unlimited amount 

It's also a cautionary tale about the sunk cost fallacy or as poker players call it "throwing good money after bad" 

There's nothing to discuss we're just going to watch the house burn and hope for rain 

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10 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

It's a mixed bag, but I see backups having moderate success all over the league. 

What does that have to do with our backups?  

You understand "backups good in X, so backups should be good in Y" doesn't work.

10 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

To me, the team collapsed after the Bears game, and in particular, the offense just totally fell apart. 3 offensive touchdowns in the 6 games of a playoff race. Think about that.

Don't need to think about it, watched it, and thought about it then.  Nothing has changed, the causes remain the same.

-Horrible and/or Hurt QB's, 1, 2 and 3.

-No O-Line.

-No RB's worth a spit behind that poor O-line.

When you can't run, can barely pass, you're not going to score TD's no matter what play is called.

10 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Even in the Mike White games, we scored one TD in Minny and one TD in Buffalo and then zero in Seattle (granted, MW was hurt in that game). Just not good enough.

See above:  Horrible QB's behind a poor O-line with no running game help.

10 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I will also just say that I have long thought MLF was a poor in-game play-caller who made poor adjustments. And how many games have we failed to score in the first quarter, let alone on the first drive? 

IDK, never been the biggest MLF fan. 

More than one thing can be true at once.  MLF might suck.

The stretch last year, IMO, is not a good evaluation of if he does or doesn't.

Again, I'm unconvinced simply play calling could have turned what we fielded into anything resembling a high-scoring offense.

  • QB needs a complete teardown, none of the three deserve to be on the Jets roster in 2023.
  • O-line needs a complete teardown, most of our linemen suck, or get hurt regularly, or both.
  • RB is still a huge need.  Hall is hurt.  Carter failed to live up to hopes.  Bam Knight isn't starter-quality without great O-line play.  Rest are all JAG's.

The only positions with any true talent are WR (Wilson and Moore) and maybe 1 TE and Hall and AVT, if they don't get hurt again.

All the rest should have to re-earn their jobs for 2023.

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4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Right before the season the most typed phrase on max site was "take the next step" 

Featured in statements like "As long as Zach takes the next step this is a 10 win team" 

It was such a given it would happen, no one questioned that it wouldn't. Zach development became an article of faith and anyone with a criticism was labeled as a non believer infidel 

Well He never took that next step, now his stats are historically bad and they are looking at year 3 of "take the next step" 

Year 4 people are going to say he's had only 1 year in Hackett system needs to take the next step 

The guy cant read the field, can't step up under pressure, looks scared to take a hit, misses games because he's physically fragile and can't even set up his feet when he throws 

Now we're watching the Jets fire MLF and bring in worse coaches to replace him 

This is a real life example of how some people get 1 chance to succeed and others get an unlimited amount 

It's also a cautionary tale about the sunk cost fallacy or as poker players call it "throwing good money after bad" 

There's nothing to discuss we're just going to watch the house burn and hope for rain 

Zach's not getting another chance lol. Unless the new QB they bring in gets hurt. 

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4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

What does that have to do with our backups?  

You understand "backups good in X, so backups should be good in Y" doesn't work.

Don't need to think about it, watched it, and thought about it then.  Nothing has changed, the causes remain the same.

-Horrible and/or Hurt QB's, 1, 2 and 3.

-No O-Line.

-No RB's worth a spit behind that poor O-line.

When you can't run, can barely pass, you're not going to score TD's no matter what play is called.

See above:  Horrible QB's behind a poor O-line with no running game help.

More than one thing can be true at once.  MLF might suck.

The stretch last year, IMO, is not a good evaluation of if he does or doesn't.

Again, I'm unconvinced simply play calling could have turned what we fielded into anything resembling a high-scoring offense.

  • QB needs a complete teardown, none of the three deserve to be on the Jets roster in 2023.
  • O-line needs a complete teardown, most of our linemen suck, or get hurt regularly, or both.
  • RB is still a huge need.  Hall is hurt.  Carter failed to live up to hopes.  Bam Knight isn't starter-quality without great O-line play.  Rest are all JAG's.

The only positions with any true talent are WR (Wilson and Moore) and maybe 1 TE and Hall and AVT, if they don't get hurt again.

All the rest should have to re-earn their jobs for 2023.

Everything you say is true. Heres the problem, none of us have any insight into closed door meetings with the 3 most important people in this process, Woody, JD and Saleh.

Somehow, MLF ended up as the scapegoat. Was the problem? Who knows, but those 3 somehow decided he was. The bigger problem is how can anyone trust those 3 as your football braintrust? That is why we question these things. If we had competent football people in the building, I am more likely to trust, but how can I trust the people who hired the one they fired, that they are now right and the only mistake they made was hiring this guy in the first place?

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38 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I continue to believe that while players were frustrated by Zach's poor play and wanted Mike White to start, they did not hate Zach Wilson.  I've never bought into that being true and I saw nothing of Zach's interactions with teammates to make me think they hated him. Yes, they were frustrated with his poor play, but these guys have been playing football a lot of years and their mental default is to support a teammate. 

IIRC, near the end of the Jacksonville game/disaster, there was a quick shot of Zach and Justin Wilson on the sidelines.  ZW looked despondent, but JW was talking to him, seemingly to try to pump him up. I know it was just one quick moment, but it certainly didn't look like JW hated him at all.

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Typical of some in this thread defending the FO, Wilson and throwing it all on MLF. Even blaming drafting Wilson on MLF bc he said Wilson fits the system. Just remember, the narrative this person is taking is all an attempt to deflect blame from the FO, that's all it is. JD is responsible for roster building not MLF and not Robert Saleh. Anyway, this portion of the article is all you need to know as to why Wilson will never be a good QB or leader. He doesn't have the balls to be one. 

 

“Zach doesn’t need tough love. He doesn’t need somebody to see how tough he is. He needs a big brother — a young, knowledgeable innovator, someone who he can trust and says to him, ‘You know what, despite everything that’s happened, Zach, I believe in you. You can get this done.’ Zach needs that,” Young said. “Mike kind of kept him at arm’s length and gave him the tough-love aspect, and I don’t think that’s really useful for Zach.”

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16 minutes ago, Larz said:

Whatever the need is to scapegoat everything on Zach , Moore and Wilson hated lafleur too. When you can’t score a TD in a month it’s not all Zach’s parents. It’s just not. There is a lot of blame to go around, JD, Saleh, lafleur, Zach, Mike, Moore, injuries to oline, Tomlinson stealing money and where was Flacco veteraning this thing up ?

 

 

My big fear this offseason is everyone assuming that everything will be awesome the moment Zach is permanently replaced. The reality is that our offense, as a unit, completely collapsed down the stretch of this season. As you said, when you go multiple weeks without scoring an offensive TD in the middle of a playoff race (3 TDs in the last 6 weeks and 0 in the last 3!!!), there is an institutional rot that permeates far beyond one player or coach. 

IMO, the entire offensive coaching staff needs to be revamped and we need at least two new OL and more depth, in addition to another legit WR. And that's not even considering possibly upgrading at TE. Lot's of work on offense to be done. 

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1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

My big fear this offseason is everyone assuming that everything will be awesome the moment Zach is permanently replaced. The reality is that our offense, as a unit, completely collapsed down the stretch of this season. As you said, when you go multiple weeks without scoring an offensive TD in the middle of a playoff race (3 TDs in the last 6 weeks and 0 in the last 3!!!), there is an institutional rot that permeates far beyond one player or coach. 

IMO, the entire offensive coaching staff needs to be revamped and we need at least two new OL and more depth, in addition to another legit WR. And that's not even considering possibly upgrading at TE. Lot's of work on offense to be done. 

FWIW, they fired the OC and OL coach and Austin is suspended for gambling, so they will need a WR coach.  The WR room has talent, but there are issues all over.  They all seem like the kind of give up on plays.  I also noticed that they don't necessarily try to maximize YAC.  A bunch of times I watched guys take a ball and step out of bounds instead of turning up field.  I get living to play another down, but it seemed excessive to me.  Particularly on a team that was struggling.  For all his his issues, MIms seemed to try to scratch for every yard after his few catches. 

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10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

What does that have to do with our backups?  

You understand "backups good in X, so backups should be good in Y" doesn't work.

Don't need to think about it, watched it, and thought about it then.  Nothing has changed, the causes remain the same.

-Horrible and/or Hurt QB's, 1, 2 and 3.

-No O-Line.

-No RB's worth a spit behind that poor O-line.

When you can't run, can barely pass, you're not going to score TD's no matter what play is called.

See above:  Horrible QB's behind a poor O-line with no running game help.

More than one thing can be true at once.  MLF might suck.

The stretch last year, IMO, is not a good evaluation of if he does or doesn't.

Again, I'm unconvinced simply play calling could have turned what we fielded into anything resembling a high-scoring offense.

  • QB needs a complete teardown, none of the three deserve to be on the Jets roster in 2023.
  • O-line needs a complete teardown, most of our linemen suck, or get hurt regularly, or both.
  • RB is still a huge need.  Hall is hurt.  Carter failed to live up to hopes.  Bam Knight isn't starter-quality without great O-line play.  Rest are all JAG's.

The only positions with any true talent are WR (Wilson and Moore) and maybe 1 TE and Hall and AVT, if they don't get hurt again.

All the rest should have to re-earn their jobs for 2023.

I agree with your basic premise that our talent/depth wasn't good enough, but I also don't think the coaching was good enough. I don't think MLF is a good play caller and I don't think he did a good job dealing with injuries. Every team in the league has injuries, and I can guarantee you that whoever replaces MLF will have to deal with significant injuries next year, as well. 

I think MLF was inexperienced and a bit in over his head as a play caller. Good scheme does not equal good OC. 

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2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

FWIW, they fired the OC and OL coach and Austin is suspended for gambling, so they will need a WR coach.  The WR room has talent, but there are issues all over.  They all seem like the kind of give up on plays.  I also noticed that they don't necessarily try to maximize YAC.  A bunch of times I watched guys take a ball and step out of bounds instead of turning up field.  I get living to play another down, but it seemed excessive to me.  Particularly on a team that was struggling.  For all his his issues, MIms seemed to try to scratch for every yard after his few catches. 

I'm done with Mims, but I agree with all of this. 

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As Cicero says in Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar:

Indeed, it is a strange-disposed time:
But men may construe things after their fashion,

So, blame whoever.  MLF has been fired.  What more to do?  As someone else pointed out, the Jets probably need a new starting QB, two new OT (at least one starter), a new C, etc.  I sure hope JD stops counting on oft-injured guys this offseason when he makes his moves.

 

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There was absolutely nothing really new in this article.  Maybe a bit more on Moore's blow-up, but otherwise stuff that was pretty well-known to us.  Not sure it sheds new light on what happened or where they are going.  I am skeptical that firing LaFleur and bringing in a new offensive staff was the answer here, as we'll see who comes in to a lame duck coaching staff.  

Seems like the home run hire is Hackett/Marrone with Rodgers coming here for a year or two. Zach at least gets to learn under Rodgers before we decide on releasing him the following year.  And we can look toward the draft for an understudy.  I'd be surprised if Rodgers wants to finish his career here, but you take a swing, and if you miss, at least you can say you tried.  And then you default to Brissett, Darnold, or White if not.   More likely, this is the beginning of the end of the Saleh/Douglas regime and we'll be hitting reset next January.

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27 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Right before the season the most typed phrase on max site was "take the next step" 

Featured in statements like "As long as Zach takes the next step this is a 10 win team" 

It was such a given it would happen, no one questioned that it wouldn't. Zach development became an article of faith and anyone with a criticism was labeled as a non believer infidel 

Well He never took that next step, now his stats are historically bad and they are looking at year 3 of "take the next step" 

Year 4 people are going to say he's had only 1 year in Hackett system needs to take the next step 

The guy cant read the field, can't step up under pressure, looks scared to take a hit, misses games because he's physically fragile and can't even set up his feet when he throws 

Now we're watching the Jets fire MLF and bring in worse coaches to replace him 

This is a real life example of how some people get 1 chance to succeed and others get an unlimited amount 

It's also a cautionary tale about the sunk cost fallacy or as poker players call it "throwing good money after bad" 

There's nothing to discuss we're just going to watch the house burn and hope for rain 

Unless Zach looks like Joe Montana in camp, the veteran they bring in will start and zach will hold the clipboard until such time as that vet gets injured.   If they start Zach after another terrible camp, essentially doing a redo of the dumb decision they made in '22,  then they will all be fired.  If Saleh and Douglas are dumb enough to hang their hats on Zach Wilson, then they deserve to go.  They won't and I ope they bring in a vet who doesn't have an atrocious injury history. 

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