Jump to content

Rosenblatt article on offensive collapse: Zach sucked, players preffered Mike White


T0mShane

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

when you take a player that high in the draft you have choice of everyone in the country 

to pick a QB who doesn't know how to play QB was... interesting. 

To use your job metaphor, Zach makes 30 Mil, JD makes 5, Saleh makes 3 and MLF makes less than 1

it's Zach's job to fix everything not MLF's job to fix Zach 

follow the money 

 

yah but who has the fancier title and office

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

How many articles, commentaries, analysis, and internet hot takes do we have to ingest before we are convinced to acknowledge one very simple fact - Zack Wilson is NOT a good QB and never will be, and MLF was a terrible OC and failed at his job for two years.  There is no defending either of them, but in typical battered wife syndrome, we try to anyway.  

Conclusion:  The Jets have made a mess of all of us!

Amen.  The same people who say both answers can be right when it supports their argument completely ignore that principal when it's convenient to do so.

Issue with the 2022 Jets

A-- Zach Wilson stinks  

B-- Mike LaFleur stinks

C-- Both of the above 

D-- It's Woody's fault

All observations & input point to C.  Blame Woody for years past but we are talking about the here & now after Woody/Chris hired very respected candidates at both GM & HC, beating out other teams interested in Saleh.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

when you take a player that high in the draft you have choice of everyone in the country 

to pick a QB who doesn't know how to play QB was... interesting. 

To use your job metaphor, Zach makes 30 Mil, JD makes 5, Saleh makes 3 and MLF makes less than 1

it's Zach's job to fix everything not MLF's job to fix Zach 

follow the money 

 

There are few people on this planet who I believe I disagree with more philosophically about life with than you, congrats

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I mean, what do you do for a living?

Nobody is necessarily saying MLF should have himself fixed the flaws, but if you are in charge of something like the offense, that is also in charge of bringing along a young highly drafted QB, you probably should make sure someone on your staff is doing that, no?

If I hire someone, who has someone on his team not getting the job done, its my job to make sure he fixes it, I don't get to sit back and say, not my fault, this is why leaders get paid good money, and have fancy titles and offices, its because they have responsibility.

Meh, it's not really the same because I assume you wouldnt hire someone to do the most important position in your company who also needed to be taught how to send an email. 

 

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, football guy said:

… 

 

Oh I see what you did here.  In that case, since Garrett Wilson could possibly win OPOY and Breece Hall was on his way to OPOY and AVT was on his way to an All-Pro season, we should just ask Lil Mikey if he wants his job back!!!!

 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Gonna make a wildly controversial argument here but I'm pretty sure Sauce would still be awesome without the cornerbacks coach.

Of course he would be. But to say that Sauce would be as good as he was without great coaching would be an arrogant statement as well. Hell, Oden had Michael Carter, Brandin Echols and Bryce Hall playing good football last year. 

Not a coincidence that a well traveled, Senior Assistant/positional coach got the best out of his players... 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

All the "did not take ownership", "every problem is mine to solve", "I'm the leader, I will do anything to be great" ... if it's fair to levy that @ the OC, the coach and the GM, then why is it unfair to expect the same from the quarterback?

The Quarterback is a leader too.

Why has Herbert and Burrow both done so well despite the clear and obvious flaws in their organizations?

Maybe it's just that, at any given moment, there's about 10-12 dudes in the country that can play that position in the NFL correctly. And other than the Josh Allen exception, most all of them repeatedly showed their quality the moment they hit the field. 

 

The QB is a young kid, he takes plenty, plenty of responsibility, and his career is likely over, which is fine by me.

Everyone saw how bad he was at the basics, why was he playing? What were they doing to try to fix those flaws that were so harmful? Did MLF and the Offensive staff go above and say, this sh*t needs to be fixed before he plays? Did they work with him and try to fix these things? Were they forced to play him despite their concerns? 

Burrow and Herbert were way more NFL ready than ZW was, I don't think anyone would have debated that. Burrow was considered one of the most NFL ready QB's since Luck. 

We didnt draft an NFL ready QB, yet we treated him like he was, thats ultimately on the Jets and ZW, but ZW is done, we are still Jets fans

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, JiFields said:

Meh, it's not really the same because I assume you wouldnt hire someone to do the most important position in your company who also needed to be taught how to send an email. 

 

I don't think that is a great analogy to be honest, its funny, but its a terrible analogy. Mahomes is one of the best QB's of all time, if I was starting a team tomorrow, I probably pick him of any QB who ever played.

He had serious flaws in his game, he sat a year, and fixed them all, and Chiefs are immensely rewarded.

Not every QB comes out like Burrow

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I don't think that is a great analogy to be honest, its funny, but its a terrible analogy. Mahomes is one of the best QB's of all time, if I was starting a team tomorrow, I probably pick him of any QB who ever played.

He had serious flaws in his game, he sat a year, and fixed them all, and Chiefs are immensely rewarded.

Not every QB comes out like Burrow

Mahomes fixed all those "serious flaws" by sitting a year?  Is there any evidence of this?  He learned the offense.  I get that there is value to easing a guy in, but I am not sure Mahomes revamped his whole game while sitting in 2017. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

What vet are they really going to get? 

They are already up against the cap. It's a new system and a terrible line. 

They are going to sign like a trubisky or minshew type and Zach will start again 

This whole fire MLF thing is a Zach rehab program 

So basically you're saying that Saleh and JD have committed themselves to a losing season and a disgraceful firing at the end of it?  Nonsense Bit.  The so-called Zach rehab will take place in practice.  On game day he's the clipboard holder and next man up.  If he progresses in practice, they'll consider another year (since they are paying for it anyway).  If he comes in as a backup after injury and succeeds that could give some trade value.  But until he can make completions in practice, which as we read, he cannot do, he will sit.  No way that Saleh said "fine, I'll give you another year of my life and career just to throw away based on Zach's improbable odds of making to career back-up caliber."  Same for JD.    My belief is that the plan is to start whatever vet JD can get done that benefits the Jets and gives them opportunity to win.  The defense has ups and downs, but overall is competetive, as we've seen and the offense has some  a pair of excellent weapons in Hall and G Wilson.  No way they've acquiesced to Woody, themselves, Zach or his annoying mother  to waste another year on Zach planned as a starter.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Mahomes fixed all those "serious flaws" by sitting a year?  Is there any evidence of this?  He learned the offense.  I get that there is value to easing a guy in, but I am not sure Mahomes revamped his whole game while sitting in 2017. 

Mahomes was not NFL ready coming out, there were many scouts who said they wouldnt touch his mechanics or his game. He sat a year and came incredible.

I can't say what they did with him, but he went from not ready to great. It worked.

We threw ZW out who was clearly not ready, he hasn't worked.

Mabye Mahomes would have been great day 1, maybe ZW never would have worked out, but those are the facts. 

My bigger point is, I don't separate the identification and the developing of a QB. Its not a coinicidence that Andy Reid recognized his greatness, drafted him, and a year and a half later he was a top tier QB.

Its also not a coinidence that we have nobody in the building who knows what they are looking at with a QB to identify the right one, or develop them.

I don't beleive in luck, I believe in expertise, discipline and process. We have none of those things, so we hope to get lucky

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

We didnt draft an NFL ready QB, yet we treated him like he was, thats ultimately on the Jets and ZW, but ZW is done, we are still Jets fans

Hey so long as the Jets agree on that? I'm good.

I don't want to see Zach Wilson play next year and nothing about LaFleurs tenure here made me think "we've gotta keep this guy".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I don't think that is a great analogy to be honest, its funny, but its a terrible analogy. Mahomes is one of the best QB's of all time, if I was starting a team tomorrow, I probably pick him of any QB who ever played.

He had serious flaws in his game, he sat a year, and fixed them all, and Chiefs are immensely rewarded.

Not every QB comes out like Burrow

Yeah but that's a starwman and you cant confirm that he wouldnt have been great as a rookie/and or know what flaws he worked out.  You're just assuming.  And it doesnt really explain why Zach is a mega bust even in year two.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Gonna make a wildly controversial argument here but I'm pretty sure Sauce would still be awesome without the cornerbacks coach.

Yeah but on the flipside, I bet it didn't take till after the NE loss for that cornerbacks coach to correct Sauce when he was doing something poorly, 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, JiFields said:

Yeah but that's a starwman and you cant confirm that he wouldnt have been great as a rookie/and or know what flaws he worked out.  You're just assuming.  And it doesnt really explain why Zach is a mega bust even in year two.

Of course, and I think I said that in a later post to Dominator

But what I do know is ZW was not ready to start, and he did, and the problems he had early on got worse, not better.

Maybe MLF was a wonderful OC, and we had amazing QB coaches, who tried their hardest and he was not fixable.

If that is the case, and Saleh and JD fired MLF, things are even worse than I would imagine. I am going on the assumption that MLF didnt do a good job, they saw that, and acted on that. Which to me, the guys who thought it was a good idea to bring in MLF should be held accountable too, but if he actually did a good job with ZW, and still got fired, its worse than I thought

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Jets have made countless, unbelievably poor decisions in their history.
 

You could make an argument that passing on a potential trade with the 49ers for the 2021 12th overall pick, 2021 3rd round pick, 2022 1st round pick and 2023 1st round pick (what Miami received in trading the 2021 3rd overall pick) to select Zach Wilson was the worst of them all. Still boggles the mind. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Saul Goodman said:

The Jets have made countless, unbelievably poor decisions in their history.
 

You could make an argument that passing on a potential trade with the 49ers for the 2021 12th overall pick, 2021 3rd round pick, 2022 1st round pick and 2023 1st round pick (what Miami received in trading the 2021 3rd overall pick) to select Zach Wilson was the worst of them all. Still boggles the mind. 

What really makes it bad is it was clear he was not NFL ready, yet they treated him like he was NFL ready, and really had no plan to get him NFL ready and just hoped throwing him out would get him there. If they had a legit plan in place that recognized his weaknesses, but they had a plan to address his weaknesses and play to his strengths, it would have been bad, but its far worse when you realize they had absolutely no plan in place

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, football guy said:
 

Kind of gives some insight as to how LaFleur was married to his scheme, which was unnecessarily complex - specifically for the receivers. As we saw, many receivers had been in the dog house through MLF's two year stint here, so this isn't shocking. It had never been disclosed publicly, but we had noted a while back that MLF preferred Flacco/White to Zach in his scheme... he handpicked Zach as the QB he wanted to work with, but when Zach wasn't ready to play from within the pocket the way LaFleur wanted him to, it quickly became a "he" problem. In fairness to MLF, he, like many in the Shanahan tree, saw Zach as a player who can be a Patrick Mahomes-type player if he learned how to be like Kirk Cousins or Jimmy Garoppolo or Mike White 80% of the time while being the second-reaction playmaker 20% of the time. I don't think MLF was wrong. Problem? He didn't raise his hand to say "Zach is not ready to start" during his rookie year (he's known to be conflict avoidant) AND didn't really do much to ensure that Zach was improving in the day-to-day QB drills. In short, he didn't really have a plan. 

Again, a lot of fans on here were openly ranting about Zach's tendency to bail out of the pocket. MLF and the coaches would tell Zach to avoid negative plays at all costs- whether it be sacks or turnovers- and throwing the ball away was a win. He was praised for it internally until the first NE game, and when they lost/the heat was turned up on them, LaFleur then told him "don't do that anymore", which gave a ton of mixed messages. It certainly wasn't appreciated by Zach. He wanted answers "why" but was given non-answers by LaFleur. Still, Zach did listen. He adhered to the quick-pass gameplan against Buffalo and they won. Then, after the bye, the gameplan was to attack the Patriots downfield. There's no defending Zach in terms of how he played, excuses for the wind, offensive line play, and his post-game press conference, but the one thing we didn't see out of Zach that we probably could've used? Trying to extend plays outside of the pocket. Instead of rolling out to avoid the sack or throw the ball away, we saw more sacks. I wonder why... 

This has been detailed at nauseum by now. Moore grew frustrated with MLF, namely because he felt MLF was being fake. MLF said Moore was doing everything right to him and publicly, but was telling Miles Austin something else. But every time MLF would talk to Moore, he didn't say he was doing anything wrong. Finally he asked point blank and MLF basically said, wellll you're doing this this and this wrong, which set Moore off. 

As I've explained a few times on here, Zach got to a point where he hated Connor Hughes. Hughes tries to play buddy buddy with the players, but this year particularly he let his ego get the best of him... instead of being fair and rational, Hughes became more of a hot-take artist. After the first NE game, Hughes used the poor performance as an opportunity to character assassinate Zach by calling him immature, entitled, and selfish. Zach and his PR team took extreme exception to that, with his PR manager telling me (paraphrased) "this guy sucks Zach's d**k for the past year constantly asking for favors, and the first opportunity he gets he doesn't even bother to criticize Zach's game, rather, uses it as an opportunity to character assassinate him." If you look back at Zach's media availability between the first NE game and the last one, you'll notice Zach's hostility towards Connor. Doesn't make him right, but figured it adds more context. The one thing I'll saw that's a little inconsistent here: Zach planned to address the team, but Robert Saleh told him to wait (according to Zach's PR team at least).

Woody told LaFleur that he wouldn't be fired and suggested that decision would be left up to Saleh, but made it clear that MLF wouldn't get an extension, which would've meant MLF would spend 2023 as a lame-duck coach. Typically assistants and coordinators get a 2 or 3 year deal (MLF's was 3 years) and unless they wind up being a super-star coordinator, it's commonplace for them to at least have their contract extended for a year to avoid the "lame-duck" situation... sometimes coaches themselves turn down the extension, but its less common that a coordinator is told they won't have a year tacked onto their deal. 

"Mixed messages"; if a QB at the NFL cannot at this level figure out when it's best to throw it away, to the point he starts taking it so to heart that he begins to act like he thinks that's the idea of being an NFL QB, that's on the QB. That's kinda what Wilson appeared to be doing before he was benched. 

Was the groupthink about Wilson starting so deep in the organization that Lafleur could not even say he  had no business starting? 

If you take a QB 2nd overall, he ahs to be a cornerstone of your team, not an impediment that ahs to be worked around. 

Lafleur walked the plank because Wilson sucks. If his scheme was so complicated that Wilson could not grasp it (despite the fact White and Flacco at times looked pretty good in it), just wait how he'll deal with the ....simplicity?....of Nat Hackett. Right! 

Right now looks as if they fired the OC because they cannot admit what a disaster Wilson is. Once again, as how many times before, a  decision was made by this organization that didn't game out how this would play out. Was done in emotional haste rather than cool rational forethought and without any planning. 

And if an NFL QB's reaction to the media is anything but benign neglect crossed with cool indifference, that, again, is on him. Wilson was supposedly a D1 QB. Good, bad, indifferent, who cares what Connor Hughes or Brian Costello or anyone says about him? Is he a 12-year old girl or an NFL QB?  If he hasn't figured out not to care at all what the media has to say, he's a child. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, football guy said:

I don't know what I have to prove... it came from the horses mouth. I would recommend polling players and have them tell you whether coaching impacts their production, then we can revisit this discussion. 

You introduced information that runs contrary to the idea that Zach sucks because he’s a spoiled rich jerk, so the information gets attacked. It’s weird. With Pennington the word intangibles became “intangibles”.  

  • Upvote 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Paradis said:

  

et al.

Unless you're fcking Zach Wilson - you're pushing the boundaries of insight. It's not like you two are chasing dragons in a local opium den together. 

So more likely, your intel is (and has been) Zach based/biased and from people in his agent/PR universe... in which case, all of your of scoops have the integrity of my penis in a brothel. You feel me? Can't be taken as remotely close to objective. 

 

I can't believe people still think he has any connection to the team at all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...