Monson and Palolozzo talk lessons to be learned from Zach

[k-met57]

ill be here for the Zach Wilson comeback podcast.

[bitonti]

11 hours ago, T0mShane said:

 Zach had all the traits .

what physical traits did Zach have, exactly? 

He's not especially tall. He's not especially strong. He's fast but no one knows how fast because he didn't test. He's injured every season. He didn't run, jump or bench press

He has a big arm, which is like the bare minimum.

He's a kicker with a big leg and nothing else. That's not having all the traits. That's having 1 trait. and it was never really measured 

 

[Jet Nut]

27 minutes ago, Warfish said:

They invented this wonderful thing called the internet, where one can watch all sorts of video, clips, highlights, full games, and read many reviews, opinions and more. 

But that's not the point.

Some people were big Zach guys.  They were wrong.  They should just own it, and not try and deflect from that or attack the people who were clearly correct about him. 

Feel free to go re-read the pre-draft threads here at JN, it's obvious who knew their sh*t and who didn't.  Obvious whose predictions were spot on, and whose weren't.

You’re watching highlights or lowlights where you’re getting an editorialized version of what actually happened.  
Theres nothing to deflect.  I was a Lawrence guy who was more than happy to take Fields.  He initially was my second choice.  But as the season went alone I saw his shortcomings and the groundswell for Zach and understood why someone would take Zach over Fields.  Because of the same reasons Fields struggles today.  Did I know that Zach would struggle through his first two seasons with his development?  No but anyone who claims they did is shooting nonsense out of their asses.  No one knew their shlt because most of the anti Zach’s were pro Fields, singing his praises and why he was the pick.  For all his big game experiences Fields is no better than Zach, so skip the they knew their stuff talk.  
Lawrence struggled for a season and a half.  And he came out of Clemson with way more experienced than Zach.   No college QB comes out of school a finished product.  

 

[Jet Nut]

22 minutes ago, bitonti said:

what physical traits did Zach have, exactly? 

He's not especially tall. He's not especially strong. He's fast but no one knows how fast because he didn't test. He's injured every season. He didn't run, jump or bench press

He has a big arm, which is like the bare minimum.

He's a kicker with a big leg and nothing else. That's not having all the traits. That's having 1 trait. and it was never really measured 

 

What does this prove, Kent Lee Platt wasn’t as high in Zach as pretty much every single expert because he couldn’t put a RAS score on him?  And to drive it home he like Fields who’s as bad or worse than Zach. 

[Jet Nut]

51 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

The only Monson I ever knew also went by 'Porkins' ... if you don't get the reference look it up. William Hootkins.

What’s a Monson?

[maury77]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

How do you see this while not watching college football?  
How many BYU games did anyone who saw signs watch? 

 

I broke down Wilson's film in December of 2020 on the draft forum and my analysis was pretty spot on. To paraphrase, I said Wilson's accuracy goes to sh*t when he has pressure in the pocket, that's why I did not want to draft him. 

[maury77]

59 minutes ago, derp said:

I think there are a few things going on with Wilson that tied to who he was coming out. He had sloppy mechanics, didn’t play on script, played with better players than his opponents, and really didn’t get pressured so it was hard to tell how he handled pressure.

So sitting him made sense because the drafting team could drill mechanics, make sure he knew the scheme and what to do, and build up better talent so he went into a better situation.

Instead he goes right into a bad situation, formulates habits that reinforce the poor mechanics, and has problems schematically - all of which result in poor accuracy. All of that is something I could see a team thinking is fixable.

The big distinction from my perspective is the pressure thing. That went from not really knowing how he’d handle pressure because he wasn’t pressured in college to knowing he handles it at a league worst level. And my personal opinion is that handling pressure that poorly is a career killer. Maybe they find a team that feels differently or they can fix it, but that’s what I think kills his value.

I think he’s essentially Blaine Gabbert, who got traded for a sixth round pick after three years and hasn’t really played again. Some guys just don’t have it at this level and it becomes evident, that’s where I think he’s at.

Absolutely perfect comp and Gabbert's handling of pressure was why I didn't like him coming out of that draft. 

[maury77]

9 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You’re watching highlights or lowlights where you’re getting an editorialized version of what actually happened.  
Theres nothing to deflect.  I was a Lawrence guy who was more than happy to take Fields.  He initially was my second choice.  But as the season went alone I saw his shortcomings and the groundswell for Zach and understood why someone would take Zach over Fields.  Because of the same reasons Fields struggles today.  Did I know that Zach would struggle through his first two seasons with his development?  No but anyone who claims they did is shooting nonsense out of their asses.  No one knew their shlt because most of the anti Zach’s were pro Fields, singing his praises and why he was the pick.  For all his big game experiences Fields is no better than Zach, so skip the they knew their stuff talk.  
Lawrence struggled for a season and a half.  And he came out of Clemson with way more experienced than Zach.   No college QB comes out of school a finished product.  

 

C'mon, you know youtube and other places has full game tape on these guys, not just highlights. 

[Jet Nut]

3 minutes ago, maury77 said:

I broke down Wilson's film in December of 2020 on the draft forum and my analysis was pretty spot on. To paraphrase, I said Wilson's accuracy goes to sh*t when he has pressure in the pocket, that's why I did not want to draft him. 

Every game, with in game situations, all year?  And it was drastically different than how a Fields performed under duress, as he was in the Northwestern game where he struggled?

[maury77]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Every game, with in game situations, all year?  And it was drastically different than how a Fields performed under duress, as he was in the Northwestern game where he struggled?

 

[Jet Nut]

5 minutes ago, maury77 said:

C'mon, you know youtube and other places has full game tape on these guys, not just highlights. 

YouTube has all of BYUs tape, each and every game?  
And more to the point if a certain poster claims he doesn’t watch college football because it’s the minor leagues and not NFL football, boring etc why would he fish around for YouTube video of these crappy games and then sit down watching for hours on end.   Not talking about you or me and those who enjoy it.

[maury77]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

YouTube has all of BYUs tape?  
And more to the point if a certain poster claims he doesn’t watch college football because it’s the minor leagues and not NFL football, boring etc why would he fish around for YouTube video of these crappy games and then sit down watching for hours on end.   Not talking about you or me and those who enjoy it.

I never said every BYU game, but there are at least 5 games of his college tape on youtube. I just posted 4 of them for you. Watch the Washington tape and you will see why I wanted no part of him. 

[rangerous]

A lot of what these talking heads may be true but we’re they sitting at Florham through trading camp and watching milfy at work?  Every college qb needs a period of adjustment when they come into the nfl. True BYU plays weak schedule. But then you put this guy with an oc who doesn’t know how to manage people and is rigid about throwing mechanics and you have a bad situation. And when you try to mess up the way a guy throws bad things happen.  I don’t know if there’s a tape of zwilson throwing a screen or dump off in college, but I doubt he threw them in the dirt.  We’ll see if Hackett has a different opinion of his capabilities.

[Jet Nut]

10 minutes ago, maury77 said:

I never said every BYU game, but there are at least 5 games of his college tape on youtube. I just posted 4 of them for you. Watch the Washington tape and you will see why I wanted no part of him. 

I get what you didn’t like, what made you want someone else.  If you had say the Boca Bowl where he lit it up would that sway you back at least a little bit?  Or help you understand why people were high on him?  He was amazing in that game, my point being you have to look at every piece of tape.  
And again, some of us enjoy this but it’s not the same of watching a couple of editorialized clip videos, then saying I don’t know, I’ll wait until I see him in the NFL and now claiming they knew he would suck.  

[bitonti]

21 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

What does this prove, Kent Lee Platt wasn’t as high in Zach as pretty much every single expert because he couldn’t put a RAS score on him?  And to drive it home he like Fields who’s as bad or worse than Zach. 

the original post said Zach had traits. I'll ask again - What traits exactly? 

Off platform improvising isn't really a trait

he legit has a big arm that's his 1 trait. 

Justin Fields is a world class athlete. And, for all his flaws, better than Zach every day of the week 

[undertow]

18 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You’re watching highlights or lowlights where you’re getting an editorialized version of what actually happened.  
Theres nothing to deflect.  I was a Lawrence guy who was more than happy to take Fields.  He initially was my second choice.  But as the season went alone I saw his shortcomings and the groundswell for Zach and understood why someone would take Zach over Fields.  Because of the same reasons Fields struggles today.  Did I know that Zach would struggle through his first two seasons with his development?  No but anyone who claims they did is shooting nonsense out of their asses.  No one knew their shlt because most of the anti Zach’s were pro Fields, singing his praises and why he was the pick.  For all his big game experiences Fields is no better than Zach, so skip the they knew their stuff talk.  
Lawrence struggled for a season and a half.  And he came out of Clemson with way more experienced than Zach.   No college QB comes out of school a finished product.  

 

This is hilarious you are accussing other people of basing their opinions on highlights when Zach literally shot up the draft boards because of his pro day and highlights......I was wrong but I was really right because I went through the right proccess and you only guessed seems to be a very popular way of not admitting you were wrong these days.

[Jet Nut]

Just now, undertow said:

This is hilarious you are accussing other people of basing their opinions on highlights when Zach literally shot up the draft boards because of his pro day and highlights......I was wrong but I was really right because I went through the right proccess and you only guessed seems to be a very popular way of not admitting you were wrong these days.

If you think Zach flew up draft boards off of his combine day you’re wrong.  
If you bothered to read what I wrote I said my second pick was Fields and watching BYUs games, because my son raved about Zach, and understood what the people saw as a prospect and could understand the pick.  So there’s nothing hilarious 

[undertow]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

These past two weeks in Nerd Football Podcaster World was all about defending their babies Dak Prescott, Josh Allen, and Justin Herbert while at the same time finessing their bad draft takes about Jalen Hurts and hammering Brock Purdy’s run of success. 

They are defending their process while also saying the people who were right are just guessing....that's how you get people saying " oh let me guess you were just trusting your eyes". lol

[Jet Nut]

9 minutes ago, bitonti said:

the original post said Zach had traits. I'll ask again - What traits exactly? 

Off platform improvising isn't really a trait

he legit has a big arm that's his 1 trait. 

Justin Fields is a world class athlete. And, for all his flaws, better than Zach every day of the week 

If you don’t see arm strength, arm talent as traits, put more int he’s just short of 6’ 3” as a trait more important, if his 75% comp wasn’t a trait worth looking at I don’t know what to tell you when discussing QBs

What has Justing Fields “world class” athleticism gotten him?  More injuries and rushing yardage?  He still struggles with the passing game, averages under 150 yards a game, so where does it get him.  Tell me Zach isn’t good, I’ll agree.  Don’t give me Fields, he’s no better a QB than Zach

A large number of poster here thought Lawrence was overhyped and wasn’t that good at Clemson.  

[T0mShane]

54 minutes ago, bitonti said:

what physical traits did Zach have, exactly? 

He's not especially tall. He's not especially strong. He's fast but no one knows how fast because he didn't test. He's injured every season. He didn't run, jump or bench press

He has a big arm, which is like the bare minimum.

He's a kicker with a big leg and nothing else. That's not having all the traits. That's having 1 trait. and it was never really measured 

 

He measured 6’2”, can quite clearly run, plus arm, plus accuracy (in college), and is allegedly intelligent. The other stuff you’re talking about—injuries, bench press—aren’t QB “traits.” Does anyone know what Pat Mahomes benches? 

[FootballLove]

I wasn't on here back when we drafted ZW. I was very nervous about him. After seeing smurfs Mayfield and Murray struggle, while big men Josh Allen and Burrows prosper, it was hard getting on board with a QB who just looked so small. And his one tough game against Carolina was a wake up call for me....showed me ZW really struggles against good defense, good pressure. 

I really wished Zack was bigger, less injury history, and better against pressure.

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, derp said:

The big distinction from my perspective is the pressure thing. That went from not really knowing how he’d handle pressure because he wasn’t pressured in college to knowing he handles it at a league worst level. And my personal opinion is that handling pressure that poorly is a career killer. Maybe they find a team that feels differently or they can fix it, but that’s what I think kills his value.

Agree on most of your post, but I’ll day this about handling pressure—they all start off bad handling pressure and some (not all) grow out of it. Trevor Lawrence and Fields were tracking right along with Zach in PFF’s performance under pressure metrics the past season and a half until Lawrence turned it around midseason. Josh Allen was bad under pressure his first two seasons. The only ones who came out of the box performing well against pressure were Herbert and Mahomes, and some of that is attributable to their comfort level throwing it short because they’re high-level processors along with everything else. I’m definitely not pro-Wilson (obviously) but I could absolutely envision a scenario where another franchise sees enough in him to throw Douglas a reasonably high pick.

[IndianaJet]

12 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Zach had all the traits, all the scouts loved him throughout the season (not just the Pro Day), and a lot of the dipsh*ts on draft Twitter trying to claim that the Jets should have seen the signs are full of sh*t because (mostly) everyone was jerking off over Zach.

The Niners moved up to take Trey Lance, only because the Jets told them to f-off when they wanted to move up to 2 to take Zach.

The idea that the Jets were the only team who fell in love with Zach has always been a fallacy.

[peekskill68]

2 hours ago, Jdub03 said:

Fair, but he also showed he could overcome pressure in the game against Clemson. That was one of the greatest college performances that's I've seen.  Guy get smoked, injured ribs, comes back throwing dimes (6tds) and beat TL head to head.

I always liked him as prospect, but that sold me. He was my qb1 in the draft, ahead of Lawrence.

IMO that hit he took vs. Clemson was worse than what White got from Milano in Buffalo

[IndianaJet]

The biggest difference between Fields and Wilson is that we were lucky enough to see that Zach sucked in the middle of year 2 so now we can now look elsewhere.

Because of Fields' running ability, Bears are not going to come to that conclusion until year 4.

[Dunnie]

45 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

What’s a Monson?

An obscure character from the movie Flash Gordon 

[derp]

11 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Agree on most of your post, but I’ll day this about handling pressure—they all start off bad handling pressure and some (not all) grow out of it. Trevor Lawrence and Fields were tracking right along with Zach in PFF’s performance under pressure metrics the past season and a half until Lawrence turned it around midseason. Josh Allen was bad under pressure his first two seasons. The only ones who came out of the box performing well against pressure were Herbert and Mahomes, and some of that is attributable to their comfort level throwing it short because they’re high-level processors along with everything else. I’m definitely not pro-Wilson (obviously) but I could absolutely envision a scenario where another franchise sees enough in him to throw Douglas a reasonably high pick.

Yeah, I think some of it is eye test and some of it is knowing that guys need an easy button when there’s pressure. Herbert and Mahomes also had two high end pass catchers each from the jump. Allen didn’t really have anybody until Diggs, Lawrence didn’t until they rebuilt that WR room and now at least has some average guys, Fields still has nobody. Wilson had nobody until Wilson but no uptick. And he just looks completely lost and makes next level poor decisions, and it hasn’t improved over two years. I’d love to be wrong but I think he’s just a sunk cost. 

[derp]

12 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

The Niners moved up to take Trey Lance, only because the Jets told them to f-off when they wanted to move up to 2 to take Zach.

The idea that the Jets were the only team who fell in love with Zach has always been a fallacy.

Haven't most assumed this because what went public made no sense, but both Douglas and SF said there were no conversations about pick #2?

[NIGHT STALKER]

3 hours ago, fullblast said:

I mean the weak schedule, the 25 year old offensive linemen and the douchey undertones were the 3 most obvious red flags from the start. wtf.

Well, what kind of schedule did Josh Allen play against...and by the way, he did lose to BYU with a game ending INT.

[56mehl56]

4 minutes ago, NIGHT STALKER said:

Well, what kind of schedule did Josh Allen play against...and by the way, he did lose to BYU with a game ending INT.

Agree,  looking/worrying purely about competition guys like Jerry Rice would never get drafted. However, I did like Fields , because I felt he was more battle tested and played in bigger games, but looking strictly at this criteria is a sure way to miss "possible" gems.  

[T0mShane]

18 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

The Niners moved up to take Trey Lance, only because the Jets told them to f-off when they wanted to move up to 2 to take Zach.

The idea that the Jets were the only team who fell in love with Zach has always been a fallacy.

I heard something recently in an Eagles playoff preview that I wasn’t aware of prior. The Eagles were trying to move up from six to get Zach Wilson but Douglas wouldn’t budge, which opened the door for Hurts (drafted the year prior) to take the job full-time. Miami ended up drafting Waddle, and the Eagles took DeVonta Smith. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

Man I am so curious to see where Wilson goes from here. Fully hit rock bottom. Does he crawl out of it and make something for himself? Or just goes along for the ride and get his money?

I do feel like most of his faults are “fixable” with the right work. But imo it all comes down to, does he trust what he sees and can he be confident enough in the pocket to not look down at the pass rush. That’s just feel, not something can be taught really. Maybe as he matures and gets more experience. Who knows but I’m so interested to see how he ends up. 

[maury77]

50 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I get what you didn’t like, what made you want someone else.  If you had say the Boca Bowl where he lit it up would that sway you back at least a little bit?  Or help you understand why people were high on him?  He was amazing in that game, my point being you have to look at every piece of tape.  
And again, some of us enjoy this but it’s not the same of watching a couple of editorialized clip videos, then saying I don’t know, I’ll wait until I see him in the NFL and now claiming they knew he would suck.  

I absolutely understand why people were high on him. The guy has a very good arm, great release and is mobile. I acknowledge the traits; however, I just felt it was a scam because I knew he was never going to play with pockets that big in the NFL. Watch the games, even the good ones. When the pocket got tight, he would either abandon too early and run backwards or throw an errant pass. People became so enchanted with the high level throws that they chose to ignore the high number of jump balls he was throwing where the receiver would outplay the db and the issues he had with pressure.

BTW, I’m no means a QB savant. I was really high on Sanchez and Geno and we saw how that turned out. Unfortunately, I was right when it came to Zach.

[Dunnie]

3 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Man I am so curious to see where Wilson goes from here. Fully hit rock bottom. Does he crawl out of it and make something for himself? Or just goes along for the ride and get his money?

I do feel like most of his faults are “fixable” with the right work. But imo it all comes down to, does he trust what he sees and can he be confident enough in the pocket to not look down at the pass rush. That’s just feel, not something can be taught really. Maybe as he matures and gets more experience. Who knows but I’m so interested to see how he ends up. 

I am with you here ... feels like it may be too late ... but a drama i want to watch unfold.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Dunnie

[Paradis]

13 hours ago, JetsAddict said:

I didn’t watch it, but figured I’d post it since it’s important. 
 

 

Until I die, I will reference this video as defense in the case of: the ppl vs Paradis in MahomesGate