There HAS to be a way to take human element out of officiating in the NFL

[Darnold's Forehead]

Get rid of automatic first downs and “spot of foul” penalties.  It should be yardage only.  An offense that fails a 3rd and 22 shouldn’t get a free 1st down because of a hands to the face or facemask from the defense.  They should get a yardage penalty and replay the down.  The cost of penalties are too high given how often they occur and therefore affect the outcome of games too much.

Same as pass interference.  There is no telling the WR would have caught it had no interference occurred.  Make it a 10 yard penalty minimum and replay the down.  Just let the players earn their yardage.

That game could have also been decided by KC throwing a bomb, drawing a DPI and kicking a field goal. That should never happen imo.

[Warfish]

3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

It's by design. The NFL is an entertainment company, they 100% influence games to steer narratives.

NFL wanted Eagles vs Reid, NFL got Eagles vs Reid

Except the NFL is better served long-term, and likely makes more money, creating a famous big-name SB-level star in Joe Burrows, rather than send KC, Mahomes and Co. back yet again.

A broader star-base is more profitable than single dominating teams.  Building up one star is always risky, because he gets hurt or retires, you just lost all your star power.  Better to have several guys.  Even in the Brady-dominated era, there were several other SB-level stars who won titles (Big Ben, for example).

I don't see conspiracy here, I just see the usual bad, uneven, lopsided officiating, and the usual fans doing the usual conspiracy theorizing about it, lol.

[C Mart]

The inconsistency is the main issue.

And from a fan perspective you can’t immediately celebrate a big play because you have to make sure a yellow flag wasn’t thrown. 

 

[RutgersJetFan]

56 minutes ago, Greensleeves said:

AI is a good start. At the very least the sidelines and goal lines should be set up so you can tell if someone's foot touches it or if you break the plane. Why go to a million different angles with a guy in NY that probably wears glasses? Have a chip in the ball so you can tell if the tip crosses the goal line or touches it. That's easy stuff.

I understand all the possibilities with this stuff, but let's not pretend that it's primary purposes are not going to become cheating in school and porn.

[Tranquilo]

55 minutes ago, Greensleeves said:

I may be in the minority, but I find the Chiefs really annoying. 

They can be annoying. I just found the whole Bengals trash talk, Burrowhead, Mahomes's father thing obnoxious. 

[freestater]

I've thought about "taking the human element" out of nfl refereeing myself a time or two...

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

Get rid of automatic first downs and “spot of foul” penalties.  It should be yardage only.  An offense that fails a 3rd and 22 shouldn’t get a free 1st down because of a hands to the face or facemask from the defense.  They should get a yardage penalty and replay the down.  The cost of penalties are too high given how often they occur and therefore affect the outcome of games too much.

Same as pass interference.  There is no telling the WR would have caught it had no interference occurred.  Make it a 10 yard penalty minimum and replay the down.  Just let the players earn their yardage.

That game could have also been decided by KC throwing a bomb, drawing a DPI and kicking a field goal. That should never happen imo.

Counter Argument: 

In every 3rd or 4th and very long, or any long pass play at any time, it would always be best to just tackle/interfere with the receiver and take the penalty if the receiver in any way has the advantage, rather than risk letting up a long first down.

The result would be more penalties committed more often, and with Refs as they are, the uneven way they call games would become even more uneven as the frequency of PI/Holding increases.

Road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I AGREE with your intention, but the cure is very likely be worse than the disease.

[Greensleeves]

53 minutes ago, Biggs said:

While the call on Mahomes might have been correct, having a dead ball foul decide that game seems insane.  

Exactly. You simply cannot make a call like that decide the game. Mahomes gets a 10 for his embellishment too. They didn't call more egregious late hits during the same game.

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

Get rid of automatic first downs and “spot of foul” penalties.  It should be yardage only.  An offense that fails a 3rd and 22 shouldn’t get a free 1st down because of a hands to the face or facemask from the defense.  They should get a yardage penalty and replay the down.  The cost of penalties are too high given how often they occur and therefore affect the outcome of games too much.

Same as pass interference.  There is no telling the WR would have caught it had no interference occurred.  Make it a 10 yard penalty minimum and replay the down.  Just let the players earn their yardage.

That game could have also been decided by KC throwing a bomb, drawing a DPI and kicking a field goal. That should never happen imo.

So, at the end of the game with time running out the QB heaves a 65 yarder and the WR makes a heroic effort, but the CB tackles him blatantly.  Move the ball to the 45 and do it again for a last chance? 

[Greensleeves]

40 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Can't speak for soccer but you can't compare tennis to football. It's way easier to use tech and take the human element out of officiating that type of game. Compared to 22 people on one field running all different directions at different speeds.

It's just always going to happen. Calls will always be missed or called incorrectly. You have guys running crazy speeds happening at the blink of an eye and they need to make a split decision. It's just how it is. 

Technology can be used for things like spot of the ball, crossing the goal line, etc. But everything else? I don't see what can change outside of just being a better judge. 

They can quickly review every questionable call without losing time - also put a chip in the ball so it can be tracked and put electronics underneath each line so the ball is tracked and the goal line and sideline are easily viewable on a computer. Did the ball cross the goal line? Did his foot touch the sideline? Was the ball moving in his hands - all can be addressed with tech. How often do you lose the sight of the ball in goal line situations? Easy enough to make that change IMO. 

[RutgersJetFan]

11 minutes ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

Get rid of automatic first downs and “spot of foul” penalties.  It should be yardage only.  An offense that fails a 3rd and 22 shouldn’t get a free 1st down because of a hands to the face or facemask from the defense.  They should get a yardage penalty and replay the down.  The cost of penalties are too high given how often they occur and therefore affect the outcome of games too much.

Same as pass interference.  There is no telling the WR would have caught it had no interference occurred.  Make it a 10 yard penalty minimum and replay the down.  Just let the players earn their yardage.

That game could have also been decided by KC throwing a bomb, drawing a DPI and kicking a field goal. That should never happen imo.

Guys would commit personal fouls on every 3rd and long the second they smelled a potential first happening. 

[RutgersJetFan]

1 minute ago, Greensleeves said:

They can quickly review every questionable call without losing time

As a baseball fan I can tell you this 100% would not happen and it would make the games excruciating at times.

[Greensleeves]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Counter Argument: 

In every 3rd or 4th and very long, or any long pass play at any time, it would always be best to just tackle/interfere with the receiver and take the penalty if the receiver in any way has the advantage, rather than risk letting up a long first down.

The result would be more penalties committed more often, and with Refs as they are, the uneven way they call games would become even more uneven as the frequency of PI/Holding increases.

Road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I AGREE with your intention, but the cure is very likely be worse than the disease.

You could easily call it like roughing the punter is called. Anything egregious is a spot foul, anything deemed lesser is a yardage foul. It's pretty obvious if the guy does it on purpose. I think it would be way better than giving a team a first down because of a slight jersey pull when it is 3rd and 20. That's totally ridiculous.

[peekskill68]

59 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Can't speak for soccer but you can't compare tennis to football. It's way easier to use tech and take the human element out of officiating that type of game. Compared to 22 people on one field running all different directions at different speeds.

It's just always going to happen. Calls will always be missed or called incorrectly. You have guys running crazy speeds happening at the blink of an eye and they need to make a split decision. It's just how it is. 

Technology can be used for things like spot of the ball, crossing the goal line, etc. But everything else? I don't see what can change outside of just being a better judge. 

Agree.  Even if you have some sort of sensors in the OL's gloves or on the DL's uniform, what constitutes a holding penalty?  The OL is allowed to use their hands in certain ways, but not in others.  How can technology be used to sort that out?  IMO play along the line and in the secondary is the most subjective part of the sport, even worse than hitting the QB... 

[Lith]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

While the call on Mahomes might have been correct, having a dead ball foul decide that game seems insane.  

Sucks to see a game end like that, but the player has to be smarter.  No way you touch a QB 3 feet out of bounds and give the refs the opportunity to throw the flag.  The player decided the game with a bonehead play.

Plenty of other questionable calls that seemed to go against the Bengals in that game, but the last hit on Mahomes was on Ossai for hitting Mahomes; it was not, imo, on the refs.

[Darnold's Forehead]

19 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Counter Argument: 

In every 3rd or 4th and very long, or any long pass play at any time, it would always be best to just tackle/interfere with the receiver and take the penalty if the receiver in any way has the advantage, rather than risk letting up a long first down.

The result would be more penalties committed more often, and with Refs as they are, the uneven way they call games would become even more uneven as the frequency of PI/Holding increases.

Road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I AGREE with your intention, but the cure is very likely be worse than the disease.

19 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

So, at the end of the game with time running out the QB heaves a 65 yarder and the WR makes a heroic effort, but the CB tackles him blatantly.  Move the ball to the 45 and do it again for a last chance? 

Then make it half the distance to the goal max.  Last time I checked DPIs were 15 yards in NCAA, so it’s not unheard of.  DPIs get called about 1.5 times vs 1.0 per 100 pass attempts, so it definitely is higher as you say.

Everything leads to penalties needing to be reviewable/challengable (only if they are called.) If a DB blatantly tackles a WR, make a distinction between PI and personal foul that can be challenged.  Either way I’d rather watch teams replay a down 3 times until they get it right rather than have the game decided by a BS call.  This will likely never happen because the NFL is more interested in entertainment value vs fair results.

I don’t like adding more conditions to penalty rules, but the current path needs to be changed.  Offenses are able to take advantage way too much and it is sh!t to watch.

[greasyt]

It's probably harder to bribe a machine than it is a human

[sackdance]

1 hour ago, shawn306 said:

Well if that Saints vs Rams PI call was not breaking point then I don't know what is.

 

But it actually was a breaking point. They introduced replay to review PI because of that call - then slowly phased it out and no one complained because it was so unpopular and disruptive.

The difference between that call and last night, in my opinion, was that the Chiefs were the beneficiary of a sustained night of questionable decisions from the refs. And the funny thing is the biggest call essentially legitimizes the refs night bc that unsportsmanlike was absolutely warranted - 10 times out of 10 that shot on a QB gets a flag. And that's what people remember.

But the refs totally marred the game, a very bad look.  

[SpankyJohnson]

Mahomes barely gets a hand on his shoulder pad and then proceeds to flop like a soccer player on the ground. Multiple flags come flying in. 
 

Garrett Wilson catches a pass against Buffalo and goes out of bounds and a second later gets destroyed by a Buffalo defender.  Refs are like Carry On Nothing To See Here. 
 

Should not matter what team it is or who the player is or if it's the first play of the game or the last.  Call it evenly !

[Warfish]

12 minutes ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

Then make it half the distance to the goal max.  Last time I checked DPIs were 15 yards in NCAA, so it’s not unheard of.  DPIs get called about 1.5 times vs 1.0 per 100 pass attempts, so it definitely is higher as you say.

Everything leads to penalties needing to be reviewable/challengable (only if they are called.) If a DB blatantly tackles a WR, make a distinction between PI and personal foul that can be challenged.  Either way I’d rather watch teams replay a down 3 times until they get it right rather than have the game decided by a BS call.  This will likely never happen because the NFL is more interested in entertainment value vs fair results.

I don’t like adding more conditions to penalty rules, but the current path needs to be changed.  Offenses are able to take advantage way too much and it is sh!t to watch.

Aye, like I said, I'm in agreement with you.

Just want to think through all the results of such changes.

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

34 minutes ago, Greensleeves said:

They can quickly review every questionable call without losing time - also put a chip in the ball so it can be tracked and put electronics underneath each line so the ball is tracked and the goal line and sideline are easily viewable on a computer. Did the ball cross the goal line? Did his foot touch the sideline? Was the ball moving in his hands - all can be addressed with tech. How often do you lose the sight of the ball in goal line situations? Easy enough to make that change IMO. 

No idea how you use tech to determine the ball moving in his hands lol. I agree on the line rules and crossing goal lines, first downs etc. 

Reviewing every questionable call is not feasible. Who's making that call? Are you giving the HC's unlimited challenges now? 

If Refs have to huddle and discuss "what did you see? I saw this" "nah I didn't see it like that", then yes - stop and take a quick look at it. But then honestly, that's not fair sided. If refs all thought they saw the same thing but it was clearly the opposite from TV POV, they're sticking by their call and then everyone is in frenzy for not looking at it. 

Like it or not - refs will always have to make a decision one way or another. The game is just too fast and will naturally create mistakes every time. I think rules just need to be more clear on how to be called. 

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

So you're ok with non calls on blatant and obvious personal fouls, but only when the game is on the line? 

IMO the problem is not the officiating itself, it's the uneven/unequal nature of officiating.

Calls some teams get, other teams do not, and it happens often enough to be noticeable.  

Call it strait, no matter how they call it, that is all I ask for as a fan.

Not okay.  Dead ball fouls should come with a fine, imprisonment or the death penalty, not yardage that hasn't been earned on the field of competition.  

[Darnold's Forehead]

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Aye, like I said, I'm in agreement with you.

Just want to think through all the results of such changes.

Yes you thought more than I did.  My slapdash idea would introduce a lot of problems like you said.  Even letting flags thrown be reviewable will be opening up a huge can of worms.

But in this day and age, especially with betting and gambling being crammed down people’s throats, it is getting hard for me to watch football.  I just have no interest in watching a game centered around tackling be determined by wishy-washy technical fouls.  And yes, I’m still sour about the JFM roughing call against NE.

[Darnold's Forehead]

8 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Not okay.  Dead ball fouls should come with a fine, imprisonment or the death penalty, not yardage that hasn't been earned on the field of competition.  

This is my biggest problem.  I don’t know how to fix it, but there is way too much yardage handed out that isn’t earned.  Unfortunately it’s one of the few ways to deter players from committing penalties, but I agree it ruins games.

Hell I’d rather the NFL start throwing out suspensions by quarter for personal fouls if it meant no yards were given for the penalty.

[Larz]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

On that grounding call, it was tricky because, IIRC, there was a defender between the QB and the Perine, and the ball bounced a few yards in front of the defender.  It didn't seem like a pass to me and certainly not one a QB would ever legitimately try to throw, hence why I think he intentionally bounced it.  Absolutely a judgment call and I can understand CIN fans being frustrated, but I don't think it was awful by any stretch.  I even think it was correct and almost certain that Burrow wasn't trying to actually pass to the receiver.

Yeah you see guys “ dirt it” a lot. That was like the 3rd time he did it. 

[bla bla bla]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Except the NFL is better served long-term, and likely makes more money, creating a famous big-name SB-level star in Joe Burrows, rather than send KC, Mahomes and Co. back yet again.

A broader star-base is more profitable than single dominating teams.  Building up one star is always risky, because he gets hurt or retires, you just lost all your star power.  Better to have several guys.  Even in the Brady-dominated era, there were several other SB-level stars who won titles (Big Ben, for example).

I don't see conspiracy here, I just see the usual bad, uneven, lopsided officiating, and the usual fans doing the usual conspiracy theorizing about it, lol.

Patriots getting gifted the tuck rule and SB after the 9/11 attacks was the just the beginning of the theory! 

Nah in all seriousness, I think judgment calls are used to influence outcomes since they are so open ended. I get that Burrow being a big star, I'd argue hes already there, is huge too but Reid vs Philly was the better story for the 2 week lead-up 

[SoFlaJets]

2 hours ago, Larz said:

The call last night I didn’t like was the grounding call. Perine was close enough. 
 

As a whole, it was a rough year for NFL refs. They are still part timers. Hiring them full time could possibly make it better but really only if there is a grading system to weed out the weaker ones. 
 

There is also a star system for QBs and coaches.  If you have a bigger star QB and coach compared to your opponent it seems like an advantage on 50/50 calls.
The thing that drives me crazy is Star QBs oline getting away with holding and getting the roughing call. Those are big swings, 10 and 15 yards. 

The Jets need a star QB and star HC. 
 

Rodgers coming here would help the Jets with calls, no doubt about it. 

What the Jets really need is an owner who decides that he's had enough of watching 2-3 games a year stolen from the Jets by bad officiating but woerst of all are the NON-Calls like that one in the video above. Watch Belichick who happens to be on the rules committee reaming out the sideline refs on EVERY call. No doubt making his underhanded  threats that they won't be working games much longer if they keep calling these penalties on his dirty team. What about that obvious block in the back on the PR that New England beat us with? 

Woody Johnson should be on the phone every Monday with a list. Of course It's Woody, Mister Miquetoast.

 

[redlichtie]

2 hours ago, Biggs said:

Problem with that is a penalty can be called on every play.  

Exactly, o-linemen especially are holding on every single play in every single game but it only occasionally gets called. I reckon they should force all OL to wear boxing gloves so there’s no chance they can grab

[JohnnyLV]

There is but the NFL does not want to do it. Their criteria is NOT to get every play right. They have stated this. They do not want to embarras the referees and worry they would start to rely on a Sky Judge or review. They don't even want the crews to all officiate the same. They just want each group to be consistent. It's dumb.

[GreenFish]

2 hours ago, Trotter said:

The redo on 3rd down was a horrible optic and wish it could have been handled better.

when it was explained, it was the correct decision.

personal foul on mahommes out of bounds is no argument.

100% the right call. Sure unfortunate when it happened but it did and it was correct

Agree. Not sure what the gripe is. The human element was a Bengals defender committing a stupid penalty. 

[nycdan]

On this note, I have NO sympathy for LeBron, ever, but did you guys see the non-call on him two nights ago on a layup to win the game at the end of regulation?  Pretty awful officiating.

It ain't just the NFL:

[Larz]

50 minutes ago, SoFlaJets said:

What the Jets really need is an owner who decides that he's had enough of watching 2-3 games a year stolen from the Jets by bad officiating but woerst of all are the NON-Calls like that one in the video above. Watch Belichick who happens to be on the rules committee reaming out the sideline refs on EVERY call. No doubt making his underhanded  threats that they won't be working games much longer if they keep calling these penalties on his dirty team. What about that obvious block in the back on the PR that New England beat us with? 

Woody Johnson should be on the phone every Monday with a list. Of course It's Woody, Mister Miquetoast.

 

Woody has no juice. I don’t think he’s on a single committee.  The HC and the QB influence the calls more imho

[Larz]

2 hours ago, C Mart said:

The inconsistency is the main issue.

And from a fan perspective you can’t immediately celebrate a big play because you have to make sure a yellow flag wasn’t thrown. 

 

That’s the worst. Any flags ? No flags ?

YYYYEEEEEAAAAHHHHHH

 

lol

[Greensleeves]

2 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

No idea how you use tech to determine the ball moving in his hands lol. I agree on the line rules and crossing goal lines, first downs etc. 

Reviewing every questionable call is not feasible. Who's making that call? Are you giving the HC's unlimited challenges now? 

If Refs have to huddle and discuss "what did you see? I saw this" "nah I didn't see it like that", then yes - stop and take a quick look at it. But then honestly, that's not fair sided. If refs all thought they saw the same thing but it was clearly the opposite from TV POV, they're sticking by their call and then everyone is in frenzy for not looking at it. 

Like it or not - refs will always have to make a decision one way or another. The game is just too fast and will naturally create mistakes every time. I think rules just need to be more clear on how to be called. 

My thought is if we can create a flying car, video phones, internet, VR stuff, we should be able to figure it out. They should take a portion of the billions they make and create a R&D team whose sole purpose is to improve the officiating with tech. 

[jgb]

Ask @Jetsfan80 to use his AI bot to explain calls. Within 15 minutes fans will be begging for human refs again.