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Woody’s desperation…..


SoJetsy

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2 hours ago, SoJetsy said:

Now that he’s back I believe he hijacked the whole plan of Saleh and Douglas to build and develop. Instead of just admitting Zach was a bust or wrong fit in NY now they make a desperate move to put butts in seats, typical Woody. Why not just let Mike Lafluer grow as a play caller and play Mike White or Jimmy G until they can find the guy. I smell Favre all over, then 10 years of obscurity again!

Anarumo in Cincy was bad early on and now he’s a HC candidate.

LaFleur was a guy Saleh was literally touting as a future HC so much so he openly talked about them prepping Calabrese to eventually take over.

LaFleur didn’t do his best work in ‘22-‘23 but having ZW as his primary QB might have had something to do with the lack of production?

Whereas the Packers and Bears games were clear examples of what he is capable of with a healthy Breece Hall and AVT and/or functional QB.

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3 hours ago, SoJetsy said:

Now that he’s back I believe he hijacked the whole plan of Saleh and Douglas to build and develop. Instead of just admitting Zach was a bust or wrong fit in NY now they make a desperate move to put butts in seats, typical Woody. Why not just let Mike Lafluer grow as a play caller and play Mike White or Jimmy G until they can find the guy. I smell Favre all over, then 10 years of obscurity again!

Woody doesn't know how to run a football team.  He trusts sources to advise him that have been wrong consistently.  

LaFleur had to go but not because Zach failed.  He had to go because he was stubborn to a fault and it negatively impacted the team.

Some of his game-plans were very good.  His opening drive was abysmal.  Never seen consistently worse starting drives.  His game-plan wasn't designed to his players.  His players had to fit his style.  Ran on first down into heavily stacked line, where 3 guys met the back at the line.  Didn't adjust play development when he noticed timing of second option openings did not coincide with when Zach reached that second read.  Never kept a blocking back in when pressure was uncontrolled.  Never effectively used draws or screens to counter blitzes.  None of it worked.  Translation, they found a way to shut down the offense and he had no answer.

As far as the quarterback, Zach is not ready to lead this team.  His footwork and other mechanics are terrible resulting in missed opportunities to open receivers and bad ball placement when completed.  He misses far too many open options also.  The team is ready to compete for the playoffs and needs a steady QB play to optimize all the offensive weapons assembled.

I agree that a cap crushing QB move that impacts multiple later years is shortsighted, but a Jimmy G or similar would change this team.  Completing 65%+ and limiting mistakes would unleash the full potential of Garrett Wilson, Moore and Hall without costing any draft capital or future cap flexibility.  You set records for futility when you bet 5 years on a chance to win now.  Truth is, even if we make a desperate move to get Aaron Rodgers, we may still be the 3rd best team in our own division is Tua returns healthy.

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22 minutes ago, sciond said:

If that is the case, how do you explain the success of his coaching tree to this day?

Ok, let’s take a look:

Bellicheat- Brady wants nothing to do with him nor the organization.

Coughlin: With Giants, Strahan was leading a revolt in the locker room because of Tom’s handling of veteran players. Coughlin backed down and peace was restored.

Sean Payton: He’s been out of the league a couple of years but he never was as stubborn as Bill.

Handley: Bust

Romeo Crennel: Good Coordinator not a good HC

Fassel: Meh

Sparrano: ?

Haley: Meh

image.thumb.jpeg.30c754702fdc701fc614ab6c47d93599.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Yes, i wouldnt mind a guy who had his team as a #1 seed and played in an afc championship game recently to man the position for a year or 2 until we find or develop our young franchise qb.

So what you're really saying is that you want Derrick Henry, he was the reason they got that far.  

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24 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Ok, let’s take a look:

Bellicheat- Brady wants nothing to do with him nor the organization.

Coughlin: With Giants, Strahan was leading a revolt in the locker room because of Tom’s handling of veteran players. Coughlin backed down and peace was restored.

Sean Payton: He’s been out of the league a couple of years but he never was as stubborn as Bill.

Handley: Bust

Romeo Crennel: Good Coordinator not a good HC

Fassel: Meh

Sparrano: ?

Haley: Meh

image.thumb.jpeg.30c754702fdc701fc614ab6c47d93599.jpeg

Yeah I saw that same incomplete list too......

 

Seventeen of Parcells' coaching assistants became head coaches in the NFL or NCAA:

Two of Parcells' former players became a head coach in the NFL or NCAA:

Ten of Parcells' coaches/executives became general managers in the NFL:

 

A lot of success there. There are some new coaches that still use his principles.... He is not the Phil Jackson of the NFL

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7 minutes ago, sciond said:

Yeah I saw that same incomplete list too......

TLDR. I don’t care about college coaches and players who became coaches. BP, whom I loved, his system worked at a different time in football. Today’s NFL CBA & rules regarding practices, Concussion Protocol & player social media would not have played well in Bill’s World. Those types of players are few & far between now.

MLF, the topic I was discussing when Bill was brought up, had no personal connection with the players. Coaches TODAY, need to be teacher, counselor, parent and priest. That is all. 

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8 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Whereas the Packers and Bears games were clear examples of what he is capable of with a healthy Breece Hall and AVT and/or functional QB.

You mean to tell me an OC might be more successful when their RB and OL are dominant enough that they can call run up the guy 90% of the time and it works? No way!

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8 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I might be wrong but were you the one not giving JD credit for drafting Sauce and GW because they were obvious picks?  ZW was also a consensus type pick behind TL (at least his stock had risen to that level on draft day).  But that one you're going to call him out on?

If the Jets had gone 0-16 in 2020, we'd have TL and this team would be a legit SB contender (and likely would be for a decade or more).   JD would be considered to be a genius and possibly the top GM in the NFL.

A lot of this is stuff is about having good luck.

This is something that most people seem to forget. Several major football networks said that the draft started at pick #3 because the first 2 were sure picks. It was very clear that Zach Wilson was the #2 pick in the eyes of everybody. That's why I say if you're going to criticize JD, do it for his other picks that didn't turn out, as that was the one pick everybody mostly agreed on at the time.

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12 hours ago, section314 said:

I have just the opposite reaction. If Woody truly "hijacked" the plan, he would have cleaned house last month or at the very least, canned Saleh for allowing the toxic environment that MLF created in the locker room to continue. Woody knows that arguably the two best run organizations in the NFL tried mightily to trade up to draft Zach and as such believes that he has the ability to be a good QB in this league, and that for two years the Jets have done everything in their power to ruin him. Therefore, he exercised his power as owner and told them to "fix" the problem. I'd call it Woody giving JD and Saleh a "mulligan." He believes in their plan, believes in them, but is letting them know that his tolerance for any more of this nonsense is gone. 

I think that is a good take...  My feeling is he believes in JD, maybe not so much Saleh, but said something needs to be fixed. And you can bet your bottom dollar, that had JD made the trade with SF, instead of baulking SF would have ZW on their team. I truly believe that. JD and Saleh need to get the QB right in 2023. 

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11 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I might be wrong but were you the one not giving JD credit for drafting Sauce and GW because they were obvious picks?  ZW was also a consensus type pick behind TL (at least his stock had risen to that level on draft day).  But that one you're going to call him out on?

If the Jets had gone 0-16 in 2020, we'd have TL and this team would be a legit SB contender (and likely would be for a decade or more).   JD would be considered to be a genius and possibly the top GM in the NFL.

A lot of this is stuff is about having good luck.

Agree, don't think JD is stupid enough to have picked ZW over TL...  

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13 hours ago, SoJetsy said:

Now that he’s back I believe he hijacked the whole plan of Saleh and Douglas to build and develop. Instead of just admitting Zach was a bust or wrong fit in NY now they make a desperate move to put butts in seats, typical Woody. Why not just let Mike Lafluer grow as a play caller and play Mike White or Jimmy G until they can find the guy. I smell Favre all over, then 10 years of obscurity again!

They have a championship level defense and amazing skill position talent on offense.

What's the problem with bringing in a veteran QB exactly?

And for the record after Favre the Jets had an amazing run.

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14 hours ago, SoJetsy said:

Now that he’s back I believe he hijacked the whole plan of Saleh and Douglas to build and develop. Instead of just admitting Zach was a bust or wrong fit in NY now they make a desperate move to put butts in seats, typical Woody. Why not just let Mike Lafluer grow as a play caller and play Mike White or Jimmy G until they can find the guy. I smell Favre all over, then 10 years of obscurity again!

You are a troll. Hopefully for your sake I am right or you are just not to bright.

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8 hours ago, Maxman said:

They have a championship level defense and amazing skill position talent on offense.

What's the problem with bringing in a veteran QB exactly?

And for the record after Favre the Jets had an amazing run.

I agree with bringing in a veteran but I hate the thought of jeopardizing our future draft capital.  We finally seem to have a guy in JD that can draft well and were going to take away, in my opinion, one of his biggest upsides.  If a trade were to happen, Rodgers should be the guy.  Carr is going to blow in the NE and if you somehow land Jackson, you may as well trade Mims, Moore, and Wilson - UNLESS your going to turn Lamar into a pocket passing QB.  If for some reason You can't land Rodgers for a fair price then I think you go with White as QB1.  The two things that White does give you is someone the team will play their asses off for and someone who has proven that he will stand in the pocket, deliver a pass and get ******* obliterated.  Get up and do it all over again.

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23 hours ago, varjet said:

At this point it appears evident that Woody is in meetings expressing his opinions about football which he is not qualified.  But I don’t think he has caused any trouble yet.  
 

Letting MLF go was the right move.  He was not up for this job. 

it does not make sense to move on from Wilson unless someone trades for him. 
 

We are watching and waiting on the QB.  If we overpay for Rodgers Woody was behind that. 

None of this appears evident.

Do love the idea that all of us can have opinions, some thinking they’d make great GMs but the owner of the team, the guy who cuts the checks isn’t allowed or qualified to have an opinion 

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22 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Nobody wants to hear it because this is the most self-deluded fanbase in sports, but the OP is right. The Jets are making no secret of the fact that their Plan A this offseason is to trade a first round pick (at least) for a mercurial 39-year-old quarterback who was 16th in DYAR and 21st in DVOA last year. If that’s not desperate, I don’t know what is.

I mean, look, I'm not 100% certain that Rodgers is the answer but coming on here and pointing out that Rodgers was 16th in DYAR and 21st in DVOA LAST YEAR (really, more representative of how poorly the Packers team played as a whole and how little support he had due to injuries and lack of talent), shows that you are not really seeing the forest for the trees. OR simply overanalyzing things. 

Rodgers, despite his age, is the top available QB. I think its unfair to simply point out DYAR and DVOA from last year without taking into account his whole body of work- even without going back as recently as 2020 and 2021 when he was an MVP. He will immediately make this team playoff caliber. He has a ton of playoff experience and the type of QB you want if you are making a run for the SB. He still has more than enough in the tank based on his stats and really, based on last year's tape. The dude can still play. There's a reason GB wants (and thinks they can get) high draft picks for him despite his age.  

If you want to call it desperation, I'm fine with it. You can also call it being aggressive or taking a risk. I'd much rather the Jets roll the dice on Rodgers than sit on their hands and wait until the draft to take a developmental QB at 13 or sign injury prone Jimmy G. Or Minshew. Or Tannenhill (who is not a FA yet as far as I know). Or even go after Carr- who is my #2 choice.   

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3 hours ago, JetsMetsDevilsPA said:

I agree with bringing in a veteran but I hate the thought of jeopardizing our future draft capital.  We finally seem to have a guy in JD that can draft well and were going to take away, in my opinion, one of his biggest upsides.  If a trade were to happen, Rodgers should be the guy.  Carr is going to blow in the NE and if you somehow land Jackson, you may as well trade Mims, Moore, and Wilson - UNLESS your going to turn Lamar into a pocket passing QB.  If for some reason You can't land Rodgers for a fair price then I think you go with White as QB1.  The two things that White does give you is someone the team will play their asses off for and someone who has proven that he will stand in the pocket, deliver a pass and get ******* obliterated.  Get up and do it all over again.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with most of it. White's injury history means he can't be counted on to be the # 1 guy. Would love to see White put on ten pounds of muscle before next season.

If you can get Rodgers and try to win the Super Bowl next year then I am all for it.

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On 2/5/2023 at 10:59 AM, TuscanyTile2 said:

ZW was also a consensus type pick behind TL (at least his stock had risen to that level on draft day).

Zach Wilson was always a sketchy candidate to go that high. There's no film, no workout metrics that justified him going that high 

what happened was Daniel Jeremiah leaked the Jets wanted Zach in late December and the rankings changed to meet the mocks 

and if we are really digging deep i'm not sure JD even had a choice in the matter. The decision about franchise QB is an ownership level decision, and it always has been 

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On 2/5/2023 at 6:05 AM, SoJetsy said:

Now that he’s back I believe he hijacked the whole plan of Saleh and Douglas to build and develop. Instead of just admitting Zach was a bust or wrong fit in NY now they make a desperate move to put butts in seats, typical Woody. Why not just let Mike Lafluer grow as a play caller and play Mike White or Jimmy G until they can find the guy. I smell Favre all over, then 10 years of obscurity again!

Grow as a play caller? I mean sure not everything was his fault. But good God man he was a terrible oc for us. Play Mike white? I'm the biggest mike white fan and he got his shot, injuries suck. Jimmy g is crap on a stick. This is your ideka situation la fluer with Jimmy g? What are you smoking?

Saleh and Douglas are driving the ship bud and has a QB not work out. Woody didn't insert anything. I swear all this Boogeyman ownership stuff some people will create out of thin air is ridiculous.

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On 2/5/2023 at 9:11 AM, 32EBoozer said:

MLF lost the offensive locker room….IMO

Aloof and hardliner with Moore, Zach & Mims

We have a young core of players. The Parcels way doesn’t work in this generation of player advocacy.

 

Where was head coach Saleh during all this? Watching from the outside along with us fans in disappointment?  

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2 hours ago, PepPep said:

I mean, look, I'm not 100% certain that Rodgers is the answer but coming on here and pointing out that Rodgers was 16th in DYAR and 21st in DVOA LAST YEAR (really, more representative of how poorly the Packers team played as a whole and how little support he had due to injuries and lack of talent), shows that you are not really seeing the forest for the trees. OR simply overanalyzing things. 

Rodgers, despite his age, is the top available QB. I think its unfair to simply point out DYAR and DVOA from last year without taking into account his whole body of work- even without going back as recently as 2020 and 2021 when he was an MVP. He will immediately make this team playoff caliber. He has a ton of playoff experience and the type of QB you want if you are making a run for the SB. He still has more than enough in the tank based on his stats and really, based on last year's tape. The dude can still play. There's a reason GB wants (and thinks they can get) high draft picks for him despite his age.  

If you want to call it desperation, I'm fine with it. You can also call it being aggressive or taking a risk. I'd much rather the Jets roll the dice on Rodgers than sit on their hands and wait until the draft to take a developmental QB at 13 or sign injury prone Jimmy G. Or Minshew. Or Tannenhill (who is not a FA yet as far as I know). Or even go after Carr- who is my #2 choice.   

Of course it's desperation. They spent the second overall pick on a quarterback who can't play and they're getting fired if they don't make the playoffs next season. I'm not going to bother arguing the rest. The board has decided that the Jets are going to acquire a 39-year-old quarterback from one of the best-run franchises in the league and come out ahead in the deal. Have at it, I guess.

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On 2/5/2023 at 6:05 AM, SoJetsy said:

Now that he’s back I believe he hijacked the whole plan of Saleh and Douglas to build and develop. Instead of just admitting Zach was a bust or wrong fit in NY now they make a desperate move to put butts in seats, typical Woody. Why not just let Mike Lafluer grow as a play caller and play Mike White or Jimmy G until they can find the guy. I smell Favre all over, then 10 years of obscurity again!

LaFleur is horrible and the clear reason Zach has failed so far.

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1 hour ago, Maxman said:

I understand what you are saying and I agree with most of it. White's injury history means he can't be counted on to be the # 1 guy. Would love to see White put on ten pounds of muscle before next season.

If you can get Rodgers and try to win the Super Bowl next year then I am all for it.

The bigger problem is that Zac didn't pan out, and they need to do everything in their power to crack that nut that's in his head this year.  He has the athletic talent and ability.  I don't know exactly how they're going to do it but it needs to happen for the team.  If they can somehow salvage Becton and Wilson there wouldn't be too many people bitching.  Not saying it will happen - but it's the best outcome.

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1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

LaFleur is horrible and the clear reason Zach has failed so far.

Okay, let's assume this to be true. Who thought it would be a winning move to have this horrible candidate for the Jets OC in the first place?

And my 2nd question is the one that truly baffles me: why does the buck seemingly stop with MLF alone and not his bosses? 

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On 2/5/2023 at 9:05 AM, SoJetsy said:

Why not just let Mike Lafluer grow as a play caller and play Mike White or Jimmy G until they can find the guy.

Because you learn to learn to call plays in HS and college positions, as opposed to when you're in the big show 'developing' a high profile acquisition. Also, he didn't show much potential to grow in the last two years.  The problem with Mike White and Jimmy G are as represented below (among other issues):

Tape Logic® Labels, Fragile - Glass - Handle With Care, 2" x 3", Red/White, 500/RL

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17 hours ago, 68JET11 said:

I think that is a good take...  My feeling is he believes in JD, maybe not so much Saleh, but said something needs to be fixed. And you can bet your bottom dollar, that had JD made the trade with SF, instead of baulking SF would have ZW on their team. I truly believe that. JD and Saleh need to get the QB right in 2023. 

What's frustrating about this take (that I happen to agree with you on) is that turned out to be a lose-lose proposition for the Jets with that pick.  Trade for a boatload from SF and watch as Shanahan and company developed him into the next Aaron Rodgers or hold on to the pick and entrust him to a first time QB coach and a first time OC both reporting to a first time head coach.   The more we look back the more the tragedy to Greg Knapp seems like a massive setback for the Jet's plans.  Their failure to adapt is on them though. 

For me the idea of keeping ZW and letting MW walk is nauseating.  Keep both or keep White, the one guy who has demonstrated the ability to lead the team.  Losing MW before first signing another veteran would be a disaster imo.  

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7 hours ago, sackdance said:

Okay, let's assume this to be true. Who thought it would be a winning move to have this horrible candidate for the Jets OC in the first place?

And my 2nd question is the one that truly baffles me: why does the buck seemingly stop with MLF alone and not his bosses? 

Saleh should absolutely be blamed as well. He was a complete failure at creating an offensive staff, and he recently essentially doubled down in hiring Hackett who runs the same offense that does not fit Zach and coming off a complete failure working with Russell Wilson. I actually hate our philosophy on both sides of the ball. I hate zone blocking, I hate the complexity of the Shanahan offense. I hate our passive defense. But as always happens in the NFL LaFLeur was the scapegoat instead of firing Saleh too which have been completely justified. 

Having LaFleur was ALL Saleh. He's his best friends younger brother and was/is considered a bright mind. Saleh should have been forced to have a veteran OC with experience developing a QB. He had Knapp but it should have been much more than that.

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4 hours ago, Chewy and the Jets said:

What's frustrating about this take (that I happen to agree with you on) is that turned out to be a lose-lose proposition for the Jets with that pick.  Trade for a boatload from SF and watch as Shanahan and company developed him into the next Aaron Rodgers or hold on to the pick and entrust him to a first time QB coach and a first time OC both reporting to a first time head coach.   The more we look back the more the tragedy to Greg Knapp seems like a massive setback for the Jet's plans.  Their failure to adapt is on them though. 

For me the idea of keeping ZW and letting MW walk is nauseating.  Keep both or keep White, the one guy who has demonstrated the ability to lead the team.  Losing MW before first signing another veteran would be a disaster imo.  

Outside of 2 games White was objectively terrible and worse than Zach in many ways. Zach and LaFleur was a horrible combination. You could not justify keeping LaFleur in any way especially since it has come out that the players basically hated him.

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There really is not a scenario where Rodgers comes here for two years and hands the reins to Wilson.

The only way that works is if Wilson agrees to an extension that basically pays him much less years 5 and 6.

The Rodgers scenario is not as terrible as it sounds, for 2023 and 2024.  Although the Jets would have to shell out $60mm this year, his cap cost would only be around $16mm in 2023 and $30mm in 2024, but when retires in there will be alot of dead cap in 2025/6.  Too much to also afford a real QB-the Jets would need a rookie to take over (and thus drafting one high, and repeating the Jordan Love situation for Rodgers who will be looking for a WR or OL).  

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