Cimini: LaFleur and Rex Hogan pushed for Zach, said he was better than Lawrence

[Warfish]

13 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

tell me...did you think Darnold was going to fail right after they draft him?

Yes.

Same for Zach.

And you can go back and read the posts to prove it pre-draft in both cases.

[pointman]

12 hours ago, jgb said:

If he was drafted by the Pats we’d be guffawing our spines out of socket. Hope is fine but let’s make sure we are honest with ourselves that it is hope we are talking about here.

[Asymmetrical]

3 hours ago, football guy said:

1. Recalibrate & Reflect. They wanted him to take a mental break for a few weeks. Jets still need to complete their staff and there will be more input from them back-channeled to Zach in the coming days, but this was the first step. He’s going back and forth between CA and NJ/NY, but I know he’s been seeing a sports psychologist who Drew Brees recommended (not sure of their name). 
2. Fundamental work. Every coach has a different approach to fundamentals/footwork and how its supposed to work. Luckily for Zach, Beck has a lot of relationships with the Jets/Hackett so Hackett will be able to have those detailed conversations with Beck to explain in detail what Hackett wants him to do with his feet (no different than a hitting coach). The reason why this is important is because they will want a seamless transition from his offseason to camp, with most of the fundamental work in TC through season being rooted in maintenance. The Jets feel Zach came into his rookie year with much better footwork than he did last year, and they've agreed a big reason why was because Zach's pre-draft prep. All that work was rooted in footwork and fundamentals because he didn't necessarily know who he was playing for, whereas last offseason was more weight room and playbook. They want him to lay off the playbook... act like a rookie again and balance out the prep by focusing on the fundamentals. 
3. Confidence & Consistency. They will get a few chances to speak and sneak in working sessions, but the big thing they want to see by the time OTAs come around is improved footwork and confidence. They are less worried about his mastery of the playbook or understanding everything about defense, more so want to see him arrive with a clear head and strong mechanics. They want him to be able to make the traditional throws with consistency.
4. Mentorship. If they land Aaron Rodgers (or even Jimmy G), that will give Wilson the ability to learn and absorb things at his own pace. People believe both Rodgers and Garoppolo’s personalities mesh with Wilson’s because they all learn through over-analysis and are very theoretical; despite the rap they get, both are very willing teachers/mentors and great teammates and also extremely competitive. They believe having either  go through the same programs they go through from watching tape, to working on technique, through study habits and board sessions will be helpful, and having someone that’s more engaged and willing to be a mentor to bounce questions off of will be helpful. Flacco had a good relationship with Zach and Mike but wasn’t a very good mentor—just not his  personality. 
5. Competition. They want to see Zach's intensity on every rep. They want to see him find that down-to-down consistency. Even if they have a guy like Rodgers, they want Zach to try and be better than him in practice and camp (which Zach has already alluded to). Upping the intensity and urgency while remaining composed has been what Saleh has been preaching to him. If they sign Jimmy G, it simply indicates Zach has a better chance of winning the job, but they will declare Jimmy the starter and Zach would have to steal it outright not just by physically out performing him, but showing he’s truly ready to play… they don't want him to try and rush his learning the way they did with him in the 2 previous years. If he learns fast great, but they don't want him to spend unnecessary time and energy on studying because he will have the benefit of sitting and learning at his own pace. They want a steady, consistent, sustained incline in his overall body of work.
6. Exposure. The scrimmages and preseason will be all Zach's to show that he's improved. Stats are skewed in preseason, but they will be monitoring his process and confidence levels throughout as well as his ability to handle pressure. They're going to have more intense practices as well with the focus on making their QBs feel uncomfortable and responding to it, but the preseason will probably be the time where they get to see if Zach responds well to pass rush over a 3-to-4 week period. The Jets expect to play 4 preseason games (HOF game). 
7. Adaptation. If they get this far and all goes well, the regular season will be the period where Zach can focus on the deeper mental aspects of the process and game planning, ideally without the pressure of starting. Like any other backup QB, he'd shadow the starter and have a lot of working sessions together and they'll want him to prepare as if he's starting, but without the pressure of having to. They'll test his knowledge and understanding of things and will want him to spend as much time shadowing the starter as he can. If he proves to be ready and able to deal with the pressure of starting, all the better. But the plan absolutely involves him sitting this year with a methodical process to build him back up and see what he can become by the end of the preseason. If he severely outplays who they bring in they'll have no choice but to start him, but the same will apply: be more focused on improving yourself, learn the way we expect you to play, then understand what we're asking you to do at your own pace. 

 

 

appreciate you sharing this. It makes sense to have a plan to try to salvage him but I gotta think the scholarship is almost over. Treat him like a developmental late round pick - if he shows you something great, if not cut bait and all parties get the benefit of a fresh start. 

[T0mShane]

4 minutes ago, Asymmetrical said:

 

 

appreciate you sharing this. It makes sense to have a plan to try to salvage him but I gotta think the scholarship is almost over. Treat him like a developmental late round pick - if he shows you something great, if not cut bait and all parties get the benefit of a fresh start. 

No doubt. If he was a sixth rounder and he performed the way he has, would they be putting this much effort into rehabilitating him? **** no. They’d have cut bait long ago. 

[SickJetFan]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Yes.

Same for Zach.

And you can go back and read the posts to prove it pre-draft in both cases.

yeah i'll get right on that

[Flea Flicking Frank]

16 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

tell me...did you think Darnold was going to fail right after they draft him?

You want to be right on the interwebz?? Join the crowd who declares anyone the Jets draft at QB will bust. Its about as close to a sure bet as you can get, none of these guys know what they are talking about with regard to QB selection, they are more like Pavlovs dogs. The fact is, we have terrible coaches, and nobody in the building who knows what the hell they are doing with the QB position, that is about as sure a bet as possible to have young, drafted QB's, bust. Its not like they have any clue what they are talking about, but when they hear that bell, they know their dinner is coming

[32EBoozer]

4 hours ago, football guy said:

The Jets expect to play 4 preseason games (HOF game). 

Is this what your source believes (?) or has inside info on? I would love for the Jets to play in this game with Klecko, Revis, OROY & DROY & I pray Aaron Rodgers.

The NFL knows we are long suffering loyal fans…. We deserve all the above!

[football guy]

9 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Is this what your source believes (?) or has inside info on? I would love for the Jets to play in this game with Klecko, Revis, OROY & DROY & I pray Aaron Rodgers.

The NFL knows we are long suffering loyal fans…. We deserve all the above!

Yes. FWIW these notes are from a few weeks ago (I’ve dm’d a few on here that can vouch), but people with the Jets were 100% sure that both Revis and Klecko would get in. Sounds like it’s going to be Jets vs. Browns 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

6 hours ago, football guy said:

He’s going back and forth between CA and NJ/NY, but I know he’s been seeing a sports psychologist who Drew Brees recommended (not sure

Had no idea that was such a thing. 


 

“And then I threw the 3rd pick, and doc, I swear to you, it was out of bounds…”

[Warfish]

7 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

yeah i'll get right on that

You asked the question.

[maury77]

14 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I agree that it's the hardest position to scout, which is why the Jets, Eagles and Niners all missed the boat despite some very fine scouting departments looking closely at him as a prospect. The Niners ended up with another small school wonder in Trey Lance, so they didn't really escape the gamble. As to your amazing, preternatural predictive skills, I'm, shall I say, dubious that it came from anything more than "he looks 12 and played at BYU" type reasoning. I do think that the odds are better with a big school QB who has produced against high level college talent, but that's not guaranteed either. And the Josh Allens of the world defy pretty much all common logic about assessing college talent. I think Tom Shane was correct is saying that the scouts were enamored with Zach's big arm, ability to throw on the fly, and his intelligence. They couldn't predict how he'd do under the pressure of NFL level defensive attacks. He struggled, flashed a few big plays, then withered. And he was obviously emotionally so thoroughly unreachable that even his teammates couldn't relate. It was  a gamble and the Jets lost. Moving on will not be easy.

I'm going to disagree with you on the bolded part. There was tape of him looking awful against pressure his prior 2 years at BYU. That's why I personally wanted no part of him.

[maury77]

11 hours ago, football guy said:

1. Recalibrate & Reflect. They wanted him to take a mental break for a few weeks. Jets still need to complete their staff and there will be more input from them back-channeled to Zach in the coming days, but this was the first step. He’s going back and forth between CA and NJ/NY, but I know he’s been seeing a sports psychologist who Drew Brees recommended (not sure of their name). 
2. Fundamental work. Every coach has a different approach to fundamentals/footwork and how its supposed to work. Luckily for Zach, Beck has a lot of relationships with the Jets/Hackett so Hackett will be able to have those detailed conversations with Beck to explain in detail what Hackett wants him to do with his feet (no different than a hitting coach). The reason why this is important is because they will want a seamless transition from his offseason to camp, with most of the fundamental work in TC through season being rooted in maintenance. The Jets feel Zach came into his rookie year with much better footwork than he did last year, and they've agreed a big reason why was because Zach's pre-draft prep. All that work was rooted in footwork and fundamentals because he didn't necessarily know who he was playing for, whereas last offseason was more weight room and playbook. They want him to lay off the playbook... act like a rookie again and balance out the prep by focusing on the fundamentals. 
3. Confidence & Consistency. They will get a few chances to speak and sneak in working sessions, but the big thing they want to see by the time OTAs come around is improved footwork and confidence. They are less worried about his mastery of the playbook or understanding everything about defense, more so want to see him arrive with a clear head and strong mechanics. They want him to be able to make the traditional throws with consistency.
4. Mentorship. If they land Aaron Rodgers (or even Jimmy G), that will give Wilson the ability to learn and absorb things at his own pace. People believe both Rodgers and Garoppolo’s personalities mesh with Wilson’s because they all learn through over-analysis and are very theoretical; despite the rap they get, both are very willing teachers/mentors and great teammates and also extremely competitive. They believe having either  go through the same programs they go through from watching tape, to working on technique, through study habits and board sessions will be helpful, and having someone that’s more engaged and willing to be a mentor to bounce questions off of will be helpful. Flacco had a good relationship with Zach and Mike but wasn’t a very good mentor—just not his  personality. 
5. Competition. They want to see Zach's intensity on every rep. They want to see him find that down-to-down consistency. Even if they have a guy like Rodgers, they want Zach to try and be better than him in practice and camp (which Zach has already alluded to). Upping the intensity and urgency while remaining composed has been what Saleh has been preaching to him. If they sign Jimmy G, it simply indicates Zach has a better chance of winning the job, but they will declare Jimmy the starter and Zach would have to steal it outright not just by physically out performing him, but showing he’s truly ready to play… they don't want him to try and rush his learning the way they did with him in the 2 previous years. If he learns fast great, but they don't want him to spend unnecessary time and energy on studying because he will have the benefit of sitting and learning at his own pace. They want a steady, consistent, sustained incline in his overall body of work.
6. Exposure. The scrimmages and preseason will be all Zach's to show that he's improved. Stats are skewed in preseason, but they will be monitoring his process and confidence levels throughout as well as his ability to handle pressure. They're going to have more intense practices as well with the focus on making their QBs feel uncomfortable and responding to it, but the preseason will probably be the time where they get to see if Zach responds well to pass rush over a 3-to-4 week period. The Jets expect to play 4 preseason games (HOF game). 
7. Adaptation. If they get this far and all goes well, the regular season will be the period where Zach can focus on the deeper mental aspects of the process and game planning, ideally without the pressure of starting. Like any other backup QB, he'd shadow the starter and have a lot of working sessions together and they'll want him to prepare as if he's starting, but without the pressure of having to. They'll test his knowledge and understanding of things and will want him to spend as much time shadowing the starter as he can. If he proves to be ready and able to deal with the pressure of starting, all the better. But the plan absolutely involves him sitting this year with a methodical process to build him back up and see what he can become by the end of the preseason. If he severely outplays who they bring in they'll have no choice but to start him, but the same will apply: be more focused on improving yourself, learn the way we expect you to play, then understand what we're asking you to do at your own pace. 

How are they planning on addressing his issues when facing pressure in the pocket?

[maury77]

11 hours ago, Warfish said:

Yes.

Same for Zach.

And you can go back and read the posts to prove it pre-draft in both cases.

You are better than me. I thought Sanchez, Geno and Darnold would all pan out. The only one I didn't think would pan out was Zach. Unfortunately, I was not 0-4. 

[football guy]

5 minutes ago, maury77 said:

How are they planning on addressing his issues when facing pressure in the pocket?

See #6

[section314]

19 hours ago, football guy said:

1. Recalibrate & Reflect. They wanted him to take a mental break for a few weeks. Jets still need to complete their staff and there will be more input from them back-channeled to Zach in the coming days, but this was the first step. He’s going back and forth between CA and NJ/NY, but I know he’s been seeing a sports psychologist who Drew Brees recommended (not sure of their name). 
2. Fundamental work. Every coach has a different approach to fundamentals/footwork and how its supposed to work. Luckily for Zach, Beck has a lot of relationships with the Jets/Hackett so Hackett will be able to have those detailed conversations with Beck to explain in detail what Hackett wants him to do with his feet (no different than a hitting coach). The reason why this is important is because they will want a seamless transition from his offseason to camp, with most of the fundamental work in TC through season being rooted in maintenance. The Jets feel Zach came into his rookie year with much better footwork than he did last year, and they've agreed a big reason why was because Zach's pre-draft prep. All that work was rooted in footwork and fundamentals because he didn't necessarily know who he was playing for, whereas last offseason was more weight room and playbook. They want him to lay off the playbook... act like a rookie again and balance out the prep by focusing on the fundamentals. 
3. Confidence & Consistency. They will get a few chances to speak and sneak in working sessions, but the big thing they want to see by the time OTAs come around is improved footwork and confidence. They are less worried about his mastery of the playbook or understanding everything about defense, more so want to see him arrive with a clear head and strong mechanics. They want him to be able to make the traditional throws with consistency.
4. Mentorship. If they land Aaron Rodgers (or even Jimmy G), that will give Wilson the ability to learn and absorb things at his own pace. People believe both Rodgers and Garoppolo’s personalities mesh with Wilson’s because they all learn through over-analysis and are very theoretical; despite the rap they get, both are very willing teachers/mentors and great teammates and also extremely competitive. They believe having either  go through the same programs they go through from watching tape, to working on technique, through study habits and board sessions will be helpful, and having someone that’s more engaged and willing to be a mentor to bounce questions off of will be helpful. Flacco had a good relationship with Zach and Mike but wasn’t a very good mentor—just not his  personality. 
5. Competition. They want to see Zach's intensity on every rep. They want to see him find that down-to-down consistency. Even if they have a guy like Rodgers, they want Zach to try and be better than him in practice and camp (which Zach has already alluded to). Upping the intensity and urgency while remaining composed has been what Saleh has been preaching to him. If they sign Jimmy G, it simply indicates Zach has a better chance of winning the job, but they will declare Jimmy the starter and Zach would have to steal it outright not just by physically out performing him, but showing he’s truly ready to play… they don't want him to try and rush his learning the way they did with him in the 2 previous years. If he learns fast great, but they don't want him to spend unnecessary time and energy on studying because he will have the benefit of sitting and learning at his own pace. They want a steady, consistent, sustained incline in his overall body of work.
6. Exposure. The scrimmages and preseason will be all Zach's to show that he's improved. Stats are skewed in preseason, but they will be monitoring his process and confidence levels throughout as well as his ability to handle pressure. They're going to have more intense practices as well with the focus on making their QBs feel uncomfortable and responding to it, but the preseason will probably be the time where they get to see if Zach responds well to pass rush over a 3-to-4 week period. The Jets expect to play 4 preseason games (HOF game). 
7. Adaptation. If they get this far and all goes well, the regular season will be the period where Zach can focus on the deeper mental aspects of the process and game planning, ideally without the pressure of starting. Like any other backup QB, he'd shadow the starter and have a lot of working sessions together and they'll want him to prepare as if he's starting, but without the pressure of having to. They'll test his knowledge and understanding of things and will want him to spend as much time shadowing the starter as he can. If he proves to be ready and able to deal with the pressure of starting, all the better. But the plan absolutely involves him sitting this year with a methodical process to build him back up and see what he can become by the end of the preseason. If he severely outplays who they bring in they'll have no choice but to start him, but the same will apply: be more focused on improving yourself, learn the way we expect you to play, then understand what we're asking you to do at your own pace. 

I guess better late than never. This is a great plan and should have been in place the day after he was drafted. Obviously the passing of Knapp(RIP) was a major setback, but they had two years to fill his position. Other than working with Beck, which was very visible to everyone,  Zach had been in the care of people who didn’t have the first clue how to develop a QB and set him back years.

3 questions/ observations for you.

1) whose idea was it to bring Beck in Zach’s rookie year? I would highly doubt it was anyone on the coaching staff.

2)Saleh got a huge Mulligan from Woody on this. Letting that toxic situation with MLF go on and not being able to address it because the guy was a friend is not the trait that HC’s can have. He’s lucky he still has a job.

3) JD has taken a ton of criticism on this pick for sure but I still think the jury is still out on whether or not it was the right pick.  Two of the Three best organizations in the NFL offered tremendous draft capital to trade up to draft Zach. They know how to spot and develop QB talent(Hurts and Purdy.) Once here , it’s on the coaches. They did a great job this year with what was a fantastic draft class for sure, but failed on the most important pick any organization can make. JD realized this and channeled his inner Howie Roseman by giving Saleh the same choice that Roseman gave Pederson….. change the staff or hit the road. With the new staff in place, we will know soon enough if JD was ultimately right, I, for one, will bet he is.

Love to hear your response to these. Thanks again for all the great info and insights.

[maury77]

9 hours ago, football guy said:

See #6

Yeah, but all QBs know they aren't going to get hit in practice and teams don't really bring the heat in preseason, so how do they expect #6 to actually have a tangible effect?

[Lith]

9 hours ago, maury77 said:

You are better than me. I thought Sanchez, Geno and Darnold would all pan out. The only one I didn't think would pan out was Zach. Unfortunately, I was not 0-4. 

1 for 4:

• Liked Sanchez
• Hated Geno
• Loved Darnold
• Disliked Zach.

I guess you could say 2 for 5 because I hated the Hack pick.

 

[Rob Moore]

16 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Had no idea that was such a thing. 


 

“And then I threw the 3rd pick, and doc, I swear to you, it was out of bounds…”

Sports psychologists are big in hockey, especially goalies.  Longtime Penguins goalie Marc Andre Fleury saw one after his game went downhill and he had a few disastrous playoff performances.  Seemed to have helped him as he’s continued playing at a high level for multiple teams at an old age now.

[maury77]

5 hours ago, Lith said:

1 for 4:

• Liked Sanchez
• Hated Geno
• Loved Darnold
• Disliked Zach.

I guess you could say 2 for 5 because I hated the Hack pick.

 

I hated Hack, so I’ll take a 2 for 5 as well.

[jgb]

7 hours ago, Lith said:

1 for 4:

• Liked Sanchez
• Hated Geno
• Loved Darnold
• Disliked Zach.

I guess you could say 2 for 5 because I hated the Hack pick.

 

That was me also. 

[Lith]

9 minutes ago, jgb said:

That was me also. 

I doubt anyone would have gone 0 for 5.  Except the Jets of course.

[jgb]

Just now, Lith said:

I doubt anyone would have gone 0 for 5.  Exvept the Jets of course.

[football guy]

23 hours ago, maury77 said:

Yeah, but all QBs know they aren't going to get hit in practice and teams don't really bring the heat in preseason, so how do they expect #6 to actually have a tangible effect?

That's a deeper question for the coaches which I don't have insight on. The team believes MLF and Calabrese did not coach the QBs hard enough on the field and they did not implement enough techniques to try and make the QBs uncomfortable in training camp and practice. Every coach uses different techniques

[Irish Jet]

On 2/11/2023 at 8:54 PM, T0mShane said:

No doubt. If he was a sixth rounder and he performed the way he has, would they be putting this much effort into rehabilitating him? **** no. They’d have cut bait long ago. 

He genuinely wouldn't have made the roster in year two. 

Guy is a broken mess. 

[win4ever]

On 2/12/2023 at 9:08 AM, Lith said:

1 for 4:

• Liked Sanchez
• Hated Geno
• Loved Darnold
• Disliked Zach.

I guess you could say 2 for 5 because I hated the Hack pick.

 

I wasn't really informed on Sanchez, so I just went with whatever ESPN told me, so won't really count it.

LOVED Geno, thought for sure he'd be at least good.  He stepped into an impossible situation though.  

Liked Darnold, but this is where I kinda started to stray from mainstream draft ideas.  They all pushed the idea like he was a savant at reading defenses, and he was kind of an idiot.  

Hackenberg wasn't even on my radar, was like WTF.  

Didn't like Zach at the pick.  

So 2/4?  or 1/3, with the one being Zach sucks, so that sucks.  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

16 hours ago, Lith said:

I doubt anyone would have gone 0 for 5.  Except the Jets of course.

until the Jets get in someone who knows what they are doing with QB's, you can just bet against whomever they draft and profit with street credz on the interwebz, then stretch your shoulder giving yourself a reach around while telling all the other Jets fans I tOldZ YOUz SoooOOOooO

[football guy]

On 2/12/2023 at 8:29 AM, section314 said:

I guess better late than never. This is a great plan and should have been in place the day after he was drafted. Obviously the passing of Knapp(RIP) was a major setback, but they had two years to fill his position. Other than working with Beck, which was very visible to everyone,  Zach had been in the care of people who didn’t have the first clue how to develop a QB and set him back years.

3 questions/ observations for you.

1) whose idea was it to bring Beck in Zach’s rookie year? I would highly doubt it was anyone on the coaching staff.

2)Saleh got a huge Mulligan from Woody on this. Letting that toxic situation with MLF go on and not being able to address it because the guy was a friend is not the trait that HC’s can have. He’s lucky he still has a job.

3) JD has taken a ton of criticism on this pick for sure but I still think the jury is still out on whether or not it was the right pick.  Two of the Three best organizations in the NFL offered tremendous draft capital to trade up to draft Zach. They know how to spot and develop QB talent(Hurts and Purdy.) Once here , it’s on the coaches. They did a great job this year with what was a fantastic draft class for sure, but failed on the most important pick any organization can make. JD realized this and channeled his inner Howie Roseman by giving Saleh the same choice that Roseman gave Pederson….. change the staff or hit the road. With the new staff in place, we will know soon enough if JD was ultimately right, I, for one, will bet he is.

Love to hear your response to these. Thanks again for all the great info and insights.

1. Saleh's 
2. I think it reads as very toxic, but MLF is not a bad guy. He was respected by others throughout the organization. I think the problem was he was a deer in headlights in many respects and was too dedicated to his "system" without any clout to show for it. I think MLF worked under a coach who had a "system > talent" philosophy in Shanahan, tried bringing that philosophy here and it didn't work. Instead of trying to force it, there was an opportunity in LA developing to work under a coach with a similar offense, but McVay has proven to be a guy that can tailor offenses around his talent more flexibly. Figure that was a great opportunity for MLF considering that he was self-aware about his own struggles. 
3. That's not how I understand it. I think it was clear that there was no scenario that MLF would return without changes, but Douglas didn't force Saleh to do anything. The situation became uncomfortable for all those involved and they determined it was best to go separate ways 

[section314]

2 minutes ago, football guy said:

1. Saleh's 
2. I think it reads as very toxic, but MLF is not a bad guy. He was respected by others throughout the organization. I think the problem was he was a deer in headlights in many respects and was too dedicated to his "system" without any clout to show for it. I think MLF worked under a coach who had a "system > talent" philosophy in Shanahan, tried bringing that philosophy here and it didn't work. Instead of trying to force it, there was an opportunity in LA developing to work under a coach with a similar offense, but McVay has proven to be a guy that can tailor offenses around his talent more flexibly. Figure that was a great opportunity for MLF considering that he was self-aware about his own struggles. 
3. That's not how I understand it. I think it was clear that there was no scenario that MLF would return without changes, but Douglas didn't force Saleh to do anything. The situation became uncomfortable for all those involved and they determined it was best to go separate ways 

Thanks as always.