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Cimini: LaFleur and Rex Hogan pushed for Zach, said he was better than Lawrence


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2 hours ago, JiFields said:

yeah, I'm with you.  This is scapegoating 101 but is Hogan on the staff still?  Wondering how this sits w/ him.

Probably poorly, I'd imagine.

Then again, if it's all accurate, do we care?

You want credit for the good stuff, it's only right to take your medicine & blame for the bad stuff.

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The Jets continued to win, but Wilson sputtered. One player recalled him completing only three balls in a practice before the Oct. 23 game against the Denver Broncos. For context, there are 20 to 30 pass attempts in a typical midweek practice. The Jets won again, but it was another shaky performance by Wilson (16-of-26 for 121 yards, no TDs). Concerned, coach Robert Saleh elevated White to second string for the next game, a subtle but significant change.

Football Celebration GIF by New York Jets

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5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I really don't understand the Flacco/White thing.  Saleh elevated White because Wilson sucked?  Why?  If White was a better choice to start, wouldn't he generally be a better choice to backup?  

Because everyone knew White was better including Wilson I’d imagine.

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42 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

He’s (Cimini) completely right.

Im surprised nobody is taking this post into consideration.... Most people want to call this scapegoating, but I vividly remember reading an article at draft time about this exact topic with MLF being very, very high on ZW and the org being very, very high on MLF as a really bright up and coming mind.  Cimini has never really been one to carry out the Jets bidding, this article clearly reads true to my understanding and recollection, and most people see you as having inside information, yet they want to continue the scapegoating narrative

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Two things can be true at the same time.

  • We've been run poorly.
  • Zach Wilson is the biggest QB bust in modern NFL history.

No worries, you'll come around eventually.  You "leave Brittney alone" types always do, once your dreamboat gets cut or traded.  

Akili Smith was a bigger bust. So was Leaf. They're both still modern NFL history.

Bet you're embarrassed now, huh?

His career isn't yet over, but if it gets no better with a season or so on the sideline, "Bigger bust than Jamarcus Russell but not as bad as Ryan Leaf or Akili Smith" still isn't much to hang one's hat upon.

Back in the position of hoping for the best but expecting nothing, like any Jets fan is more than used to.

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12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I really don't understand the Flacco/White thing.  Saleh elevated White because Wilson sucked?  Why?  If White was a better choice to start, wouldn't he generally be a better choice to backup?  

I remember White did not look good in camp and Flacco was doing really well. Prob why it started in that order. 

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4 hours ago, Warfish said:

TBQH if I was one of the Jets crappy mostly-miss scouts, I'd probably want to blameshift to someone else too for selecting the worst QB bust in NFL history (to-date).

Clearly JD is hoping that he can get kevin to stop harassing him and instead shift his taunts to LaFleur.

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5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Akili Smith was a bigger bust. So was Leaf. They're both still modern NFL history.

Like debating the GOAT, opinions will differ.

But you're probably right.

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Bet you're embarrassed now, huh?

Not even remotely.

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

His career isn't yet over, but if it gets no better with a season or so on the sideline, "Bigger bust than Jamarcus Russell but not as bad as Ryan Leaf or Akili Smith" still isn't much to hang one's hat upon.

Back in the position of hoping for the best but expecting nothing, like any Jets fan is more than used to.

When I call him a historic bust, I still think it's important to add the "to-date" part.  Fair is fair, after all.

It's quite unlikely he turns it around based on events so far, but it's not impossible.  

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4 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

This makes zero sense. We never had an option of taking Lawrence. In hindsight maybe you trade down and run it back with White for 2 years? Idk the right answer

The Jets thinking Wilson was better than Lawrence is exactly why they didn't trade down from 2.  This report is demonstrating just how high the decision-makers seemed to be on him.

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43 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Can't recall being more disinterested in an offseason.... despite being in the best position in forever to be a good team if we can find a QB...

I'm bored with the predictability of past bad decisions. The redundancy of ineptitude is anticlimactic at this point... Zach Wilson a reach? gee... MLF being in over his head? Who knew... Lack of accountability from Staff?... Never heard of that... late season implosion... Free Agency blues.. 

*yawn* 

We are somehow in the endless loop of Groundhog Day.  I swear.

giphy.gif

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13 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Im surprised nobody is taking this post into consideration.... Most people want to call this scapegoating, but I vividly remember reading an article at draft time about this exact topic with MLF being very, very high on ZW and the org being very, very high on MLF as a really bright up and coming mind.  Cimini has never really been one to carry out the Jets bidding, this article clearly reads true to my understanding and recollection, and most people see you as having inside information, yet they want to continue the scapegoating narrative

Yup.  Not only that, beyond what I know about that year’s draft, the Jets publicly put out an entire 1JD episode detailing LaFleur breaking down Zach Wilson at BYU during the draft process.  The dude loved him.

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I've been one of Douglas' biggest supporters for a while now, and still think he will, and should, probably get at least 2 more years here.  Mostly because I'm quite confident the next GM hire will be far worse than Douglas.

That said, all of this has been very disheartening.  HOW the QB position was botched surrounding the Wilson selection has been the height of stupidity:

  • Were there other options?  Plenty.  Trading down, taking Fields, Chase, Pitts (or even trading down AND grabbing one of those guys) were all options sitting there for the taking.
  • Opportunity Cost.  The above available options PLUS grabbing a veteran QB like Minshew = a very good team with  a bridge QB.  Regardless of what you think about the makeup of the current roster, that's gotta be a 2022 playoff squad right there if we had made the right, easy call.
  • Complete misevaluation.  Wilson has looked like a mid-round project at best.  How do you whiff at # 2 THAT badly off a few off-platform throws?  Did they not even look at his tape on the few plays where he was under pressure?  Or perhaps even worse, did they do that and still disregard it as a reason to avoid him in the draft?
  • Lack of alternative options.  Time and time again we fail to have a decent 2nd option available as a plan B, and at this point, this has to be a Woody Johnson thing, no?  Every time the Jets draft a young QB they go all-in without any semblance of having a quality backup.
  • No adults in the room.  Shifting of blame, miscommunications, a QB carousel....the optics are just terrible with this franchise.  The consequence of having an owner who is incapable of establishing accountability and an easy-to-understand chain of command.

 

Solution:  For f**k's sake, Woody, shell out to hire a VP to run the show and be done with it.

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1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

This was the off-season to reset. You have a handful of good players that could have allured someone you’d think. The eggs in one basket approach for Rodgers (which feels unlikely) is setting up for a total clusterF of a season.

Douglas had more than enough time to figure it out. It didn’t work and it ended with a 6 game losing streak. Any other org and that gets you fired. Next season is going to be a colossal waste of time. 

There’s still time. woody can fire jd after the draft. Just like Big Mac lol ? 

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2 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I love how all the Poor Mikey crowd is calling BS on this. This is 100% not hindsight or blame game, I vividly recall when ZW was drafted that MLF was all over ZW and was the one who pushed hardest to get him.

MLF made his own bed

Mikey had a thin as tissue resume to be the Jets OC.  Saleh had as thin a tissue resume to be a HC on a team with the 2 pick and a 3rd year QB who needed evaluation.   Saleh hired he's BFF little brother and allowed him to pound the desk to unload Sam and pick Zach and Douglas was just an innocent bystander.   Hot take.

Lefleur was a passing game Co-ordinator for a year and a position coach before that and not for QB's.

Lefleur and Saleh never should have had any decision on Sam or who we drafted at QB.  Neither one was remotely qualified.  

The Mikey crowd understands he's a well respected position coach who was a work in progress with good league connections who might well be a good future HC in this league sometime in the future.   That's why they didn't have to fire him.  He still respected around the league.  

It's 100% the blame game for complete incompetence by Douglas and his hand picked HC.

 

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7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The Jets thinking Wilson was better than Lawrence is exactly why they didn't trade down from 2.  This report is demonstrating just how high the decision-makers seemed to be on him.

But as a team you don't get to draft #2 very often w/o yielding other assets.  I can't bash the Jets for taking a swing there, it just happens that this pick has not worked out and possibly never will. As others have said they could have traded down and taken other QB's who also floundered on this 2021 team that was pretty devoid of talent.

I personally wanted Fields but I question if he would have worked under these coaches, system and OC. Remember JF only evolved in Chicago after the Bears canned Nagy and brought in Luke Getsy who adapted the O to fit his strengths. Likewise TL struggled in Jax until the Jags brought in Pedersen and Press Taylor to work with him. Maybe MLF really was the biggest issue and maybe Hackett and his staff will allow ZW to grow into the QB that the Jets felt worthy of the #2 pick. 

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Yeah this is 100% for sure scape goating.  If Joe Douglas and Roberts Saleh did not think Zac Wilson was awesome sauce they never would have drafted him.

I've seen this act by media many many times before. especially with my NHL team the Edmonton Oilers, media defends the every loving shi* out of guys while they were here and rarely have a bad word to say about them and suddenly when they are gone they are responsible for all the ills of the team.  Try and deflect all blame from the guys still here.  I'm sure Lafleur, while still not on the team forced them to draft james morgan as well.

 

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I've been one of Douglas' biggest supporters for a while now, and still think he will, and should, probably get at least 2 more years here.  Mostly because I'm quite confident the next GM hire will be far worse than Douglas.

That said, all of this has been very disheartening.  HOW the QB position was botched surrounding the Wilson selection has been the height of stupidity:

  • Were there other options?  Plenty.  Trading down, taking Fields, Chase, Pitts (or even trading down AND grabbing one of those guys) were all options sitting there for the taking.
  • Opportunity Cost.  The above available options PLUS grabbing a veteran QB like Minshew = a very good team with  a bridge QB.  Regardless of what you think about the makeup of the current roster, that's gotta be a 2022 playoff squad right there if we had made the right, easy call.
  • Complete misevaluation.  Wilson has looked like a mid-round project at best.  How do you whiff at # 2 THAT badly off a few off-platform throws?  Did they not even look at his tape on the few plays where he was under pressure?  Or perhaps even worse, did they do that and still disregard it as a reason to avoid him in the draft?
  • Lack of alternative options.  Time and time again we fail to have a decent 2nd option available as a plan B, and at this point, this has to be a Woody Johnson thing, no?  Every time the Jets draft a young QB they go all-in without any semblance of having a quality backup.
  • No adults in the room.  Shifting of blame, miscommunications, a QB carousel....the optics are just terrible with this franchise.  The consequence of having an owner who is incapable of establishing accountability and an easy-to-understand chain of command.

 

Solution:  For f**k's sake, Woody, shell out to hire a VP to run the show and be done with it.

@C Mart had responded to one of my posts earlier with a link to the jets admin team roster. When I looked at it I was amazed at the amount of people in so called football operations roles.

I get the feeling Woody actually thinks he has someone in such a position as you and many others want. Problem is there are so many (and in actuality probably no one performing the role) that Woody thinks he is covered.

Want to know where alot of Woody's money goes, there has to be over 100 or more people with at least senior titles within that link. 

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The Jets thinking Wilson was better than Lawrence is exactly why they didn't trade down from 2.  This report is demonstrating just how high the decision-makers seemed to be on him.

Idk, to me pounding the table for the guy who is available to you is in the same vein as "We got our top guy on our draft board, we can't believe he fell"

As far as trading out of #2, what would the plan have been at QB? Do you exercise the 5th year option on the worst starting QB in the league from the previous 3 years? The best option was probably decline Sam's option, trade down, and Franchise him if he played well. I'm not sure Sam performs much better in 2021 with our roster though. Then you find yourself needing a QB last offseason - Watson and Russell would have been options with all the draft picks but you would likely be without Sauce, Garrett or Breece in order to bring one of those QBs in. We could have drafted Pickett, since he fell, but he has the smallest hands in the NFL and very high fumble rate in college.

 

I think the cleanest way to move forward was taking the 2nd best QB in a draft that most scouts had as QB2 behind an outlier QB1 in Lawrence.

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5 minutes ago, Trotter said:

@C Mart had responded to one of my posts earlier with a link to the jets admin team roster. When I looked at it I was amazed at the amount of people in so called football operations roles.

I get the feeling Woody actually thinks he has someone in such a position as you and many others want. Problem is there are so many (and in actuality probably no one performing the role) that Woody thinks he is covered.

Want to know where alot of Woody's money goes, there has to be over 100 or more people with at least senior titles within that link. 

 

Ultimately, for a successful org, there really can only be one head adult in the room.  The Owner, VP, GM, or HC (a HC with GM powers, that is).  Pick one because that's it.  One guy has to be ultimately make the final call and be held responsible for the personnel decisions and the W-L record of the team.  He can ask for input and take things under advisement but he's still the top dog for better or worse.

I had hoped JD could seize enough control and be competent enough that he could be that guy, but because of Woody everyone has reverted back to childish bickering internally from the looks of it.  Everyone trying to protect themselves.  And that's no way to succeed.

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Ultimately, for a successful org, there really can only be one head adult in the room.  The Owner, VP, GM, or HC (a HC with GM powers, that is).  Pick one because that's it.  One guy has to be ultimately make the final call and be held responsible for the personnel decisions and the W-L record of the team.  He can ask for input and take things under advisement but he's still the top dog for better or worse.

I had hoped JD could seize enough control and be competent enough that he could be that guy, but because of Woody everyone has reverted back to childish bickering internally from the looks of it.  Everyone trying to protect themselves.  And that's no way to succeed.

i agree 1000%. 

That is why I was very surprised looking at that roster and wondering what are all of these football related roles and what type of input do they have?

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20 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Yup.  Not only that, beyond what I know about that year’s draft, the Jets publicly put out an entire 1JD episode detailing LaFleur breaking down Zach Wilson at BYU during the draft process.  The dude loved him.

Last I checked, MLF worked for Saleh.

And Saleh worked for JD.

Now, unless you're saying that they both deferred to their rookie O-Co and gave MLF the authority to make the decision on how to use the #2 overall pick, then it doesn't matter if MLF liked Zach or not at some point.  The call isn't and wasn't his, and leaking stories to attempt to lay it at the feet of MLF now that he is gone is still 100% scapegoating/deflection by those who remain.

As I said earlier, success has many fathers whilst failure is an orphan, and leaks like this are pretty obviously trying to pin blame on the junior (fired in everything but name) O-Co, to help repair the public image of the Head Coach and GM who managed him and had the actual authority to make the pick in question.

This is less a defense of MLF, than a criticism of existing management/staff for grinding axes and leaking this to Cimini.

P.S. missed opportunity by you to use the "He's Right, You Know" Morgan Freeman Gif.  Just say'in.

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7 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

As far as trading out of #2, what would the plan have been at QB? Do you exercise the 5th year option on the worst starting QB in the league from the previous 3 years? The best option was probably decline Sam's option, trade down, and Franchise him if he played well.

My preferred plan would have been one of these options:

  • Take Fields at 2
  • Trade down and take your top choice
    • If that top choice isn't a QB, bring in a bridge option like Minshew (and maybe bring him in regardless so you have a bridge guy + high pick QB in the QB room)

In all scenarios I still would have traded Darnold.  Not taking a QB in 2021 would not be a reasonable excuse for running it back with Darnold.  Not when you have a 2nd round pick available for a guy on an expiring contract. 

People kept getting caught up in the "Either Wilson or Darnold and that's it" stuff and I think that was stupid.  Douglas himself may have thought in those terms too, and that also was stupid.  There were always more options than that.

The right call, to me, was using the draft capital you have the best you can and bring in a bridge QB.  Pretty simple.

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10 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Mikey had a thin as tissue resume to be the Jets OC.  Saleh had as thin a tissue resume to be a HC on a team with the 2 pick and a 3rd year QB who needed evaluation.   Saleh hired he's BFF little brother and allowed him to pound the desk to unload Sam and pick Zach and Douglas was just an innocent bystander.   Hot take.

Lefleur was a passing game Co-ordinator for a year and a position coach before that and not for QB's.

Lefleur and Saleh never should have had any decision on Sam or who we drafted at QB.  Neither one was remotely qualified.  

The Mikey crowd understands he's a well respected position coach who was a work in progress with good league connections who might well be a good future HC in this league sometime in the future.   That's why they didn't have to fire him.  He still respected around the league.  

It's 100% the blame game for complete incompetence by Douglas and his hand picked HC.

 

This is the way Woody sets up his FO, and its with intent, so he can keep or fire whomever fits what he wants best, and the accountability is murky. 

I would have strongly preferred a proven HC over Saleh, but I understand he was a coveted guy. But knowing he has zero ability on the QB side, they needed to make sure he selected a proven OC who knows what they are doing with the QB. MLF very well may be a great  young offensive mind, but that doesnt make him a great young OC, and it certainly does not make him qualified to select and groom a young raw QB from BYU with mechanical issues. 

The whole thing with the Jets is and has been very discombobulated, without plan or being well thought out. 

If you don't have someone on your coaching staff who can help you analyze a draft QB, you probably should just accept you need to bring in a vet for better or worse. If you want to draft someone, you better have people who know what they are doing.

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11 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Yeah this is 100% for sure scape goating.  If Joe Douglas and Roberts Saleh did not think Zac Wilson was awesome sauce they never would have drafted him.

I've seen this act by media many many times before. especially with my NHL team the Edmonton Oilers, media defends the every loving shi* out of guys while they were here and rarely have a bad word to say about them and suddenly when they are gone they are responsible for all the ills of the team.  Try and deflect all blame from the guys still here.  I'm sure Lafleur, while still not on the team forced them to draft james morgan as well.

 

Cimini has never been one to defend the Jets, if anything complete opposite. Its clear that JD and RS did like ZW enough to draft him 2, and not take a nice trade package, but the question remains, what where they basing their like of him on? Is Saleh even remotely qualified to evaluate QB's? Is JD? This article is saying that the love for ZW came from MLF and Rex Hogan, and JD and Saleh trusted them, whichis not far fetched at all, and also what I clearly remember reading at the time of the draft, and what Mogglez has validated through inside knowledge of the org

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4 hours ago, freestater said:

of course the guy who isn't here anymore is to blame. Zero accountability at One Jets Drive. 

This was the first thing that popped into my head, before I even read the OP.

This is nothing but a bunch of BS. What does it matter who Hogan or LaFleur thought was better? JD is the GM who was sitting there getting offers for the #2 pick in the draft. He’s the one who decided to 

A. Turn them down

B. Draft Zach Wilson

Anything else is just CYA passing the buck stuff coming from him or a lackey. He can GTFOH with that nonsense.

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23 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

My preferred plan would have been one of these options:

  • Take Fields at 2
  • Trade down and take your top choice
    • If that top choice isn't a QB, bring in a bridge option like Minshew (and maybe bring him in regardless so you have a bridge guy + high pick QB in the QB room)

In all scenarios I still would have traded Darnold.  Not taking a QB in 2021 would not be a reasonable excuse for running it back with Darnold.  Not when you have a 2nd round pick available for a guy on an expiring contract. 

People kept getting caught up in the "Either Wilson or Darnold and that's it" stuff and I think that was stupid.  Douglas himself may have thought in those terms too, and that also was stupid.  There were always more options than that.

The right call, to me, was using the draft capital you have the best you can and bring in a bridge QB.  Pretty simple.

I think the narrative for Wilson was because of the Saleh/LaFleur hire. (initially)  I'm not sure I see Fields running the offense I watched the last 2 seasons, given what we have seen from him as a passer. That said, maybe the running QB is the future of the league and I'm just dead wrong lol

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27 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Last I checked, MLF worked for Saleh.

And Saleh worked for JD.

Now, unless you're saying that they both deferred to their rookie O-Co and gave MLF the authority to make the decision on how to use the #2 overall pick, then it doesn't matter if MLF liked Zach or not at some point.  The call isn't and wasn't his, and leaking stories to attempt to lay it at the feet of MLF now that he is gone is still 100% scapegoating/deflection by those who remain.

As I said earlier, success has many fathers whilst failure is an orphan, and leaks like this are pretty obviously trying to pin blame on the junior (fired in everything but name) O-Co, to help repair the public image of the Head Coach and GM who managed him and had the actual authority to make the pick in question.

This is less a defense of MLF, than a criticism of existing management/staff for grinding axes and leaking this to Cimini.

P.S. missed opportunity by you to use the "He's Right, You Know" Morgan Freeman Gif.  Just say'in.

So I completely agree with this post, and I do think it speaks to my bigger point. We had nobody in the building at higher up position, GM/HC who could properly evaluate the QB position, which is why they defaulted to MLF. Which, is what I have been saying is the biggest problem, not having someone in who knows what they are doing, and how you end up with a historic bust.

I also 100% agree that its bush league by the people staying to scapegoat someone who is no longer here, even though I very much believe it to be true.

I think Saleh has done some decent things here, but allowing Saleh a first time HC with no QB experience, to bring in a first time OC with no real QB experience, was a colossal mistake when drafting a raw, mechanically flawed QB with the 2nd overall pick.

Im not even clamoring for firing JD per se, but its a huge hit on him IMO.

What I would like to see is the Jets stop making the same mistakes which just seems like a complete and utter lack of coordination and planning and more like just winging it

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26 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

This is Joe Douglas spinning to make sure he keeps his job.

Put the blame on the guy who is no longer here (who was by all accounts was the most vocal ZW critic in the building) and maybe even setup Rex Hogan to take the fall.

If it is, it won't work. He's the GM. He needs to replace Zach Wilson with a guy we can win with next year or rub some magic dust on Zach's head to get him to wake up immediately. Otherwise, he's getting fired regardless of which coaches or front office people pounded the table for Wilson. 

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