What went wrong with the Raiders and Carr?

[slats]

Long SI article that hopefully works with this link: https://www.si.com/nfl/raiders/the-black-hole-plus/las-vegas-raiders-derek-carr-dave-ziegler-tom-brady-josh-mcdaniels-mark-davis

[The Crusher]

[slats]

From the article: “In Gutierrez's book, If These Walls Could Talk, Kennedy, a Raiders' team employee, said of the then-team franchise quarterback: "I like Derek. I think he is a nice guy. Don't get me wrong, but he can be childish and immature, and if somebody says something bad about him, he sulks, like a little boy who takes his ball and goes into the corner. He's a good quarterback."

The article suggests to me that Carr is a guy who needs some coddling, and while I think Saleh is a fully capable coddler I think what the Jets actually need is a QB who doesn’t need that. We can see how the team turned on Zach and in LV, players were questioning Carr’s play as well. 

 

[slats]

2 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

This piece is saying that McDaniels loved Carr before he worked with him, still likes him a lot as a person, but had given up on him as his QB. 

[usanyj]

Josh McDaniels is the head coach.  He's a buffoon that is paid so much that they can't fire him and afford to pay another coach.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

1 minute ago, slats said:

This piece is saying that McDaniels loved Carr before he worked with him, still likes him a lot as a person, but had given up on him as his QB. 

I’m so upset with you for having me read that ;).  
 

The most successive bullet points I’ve ever read in my life.

[Biggs]

Sounds like Carr would fit in perfectly with Saleh.  All gas no accountability.  

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

Can’t believe I read all that…

But sounds like McDaniels is trying to install the Patriot way of doing things and it was coming off as brash at first. Calling everyone out. Players took to it but Carr, getting the most of it, didn’t enjoy it after a while and thought it wasn’t fun anymore. 

Aside from Tom Brady who was molded in that type of environment, has the patriot way ever worked elsewhere? 
 

There’s def risk with Carr though and idk why he would come here if he craves stability. Although he does love relationships, so maybe Downing would help. Who knows. 

[JiFtheOracle]

9 minutes ago, slats said:

From the article: “In Gutierrez's book, If These Walls Could Talk, Kennedy, a Raiders' team employee, said of the then-team franchise quarterback: "I like Derek. I think he is a nice guy. Don't get me wrong, but he can be childish and immature, and if somebody says something bad about him, he sulks, like a little boy who takes his ball and goes into the corner. He's a good quarterback."

The article suggests to me that Carr is a guy who needs some coddling, and while I think Saleh is a fully capable coddler I think what the Jets actually need is a QB who doesn’t need that. We can see how the team turned on Zach and in LV, players were questioning Carr’s play as well. 

 

Add this to the lists of reasons I just dont think Carr could ever be successful here.  You cant be a sensitive little dweeb in NYC.  And I do wonder how his role as the NFL's minister would go over in NYC as well.   Throw in cant win in cold weather, throw in back to back years of setting career highs in turnovers.  Someone is about to get royally ****ed by giving this dude 40mil+, IMO.  He just, aint it.

 

[The Troll]

The same thing that went wrong between the Broncos and Jay Cutler. 

[RoadFan]

“Sulking” is almost certainly part of the reason that Boomer said ‘ I know for a fact that Carr is not a good fit in New York.’

[JiFtheOracle]

25 minutes ago, slats said:

This piece is saying that McDaniels loved Carr before he worked with him, still likes him a lot as a person, but had given up on him as his QB. 

It didnt help's Carr's case when Jarred Stidham took over and absolutely went off vs. the best D in the league in San Fran and took them to OT.  The dude threw for 700 yards and 4 TD's in 2 games as a starter for the Raiders.  Carr is the mush.

[Biggs]

The article actually made my negative bias against McDaniels evaporate.  Seems like he has the respect of most of the players and is trying to instill descipline and accountability.  

[Barry McCockinner]

So Carr played for how many coaches in his career and never had this problem? I have to assume film study and coaching in general throughout his career involved some level of criticism. When McDaniels went to Denver he and Cutler had conflict and Cutler was sent packing.

I think one thing great coaches do is understand how their players learn and take to coaching. You can't treat everyone the same, they aren't robots, they're people. If you see a guy who is taking your approach personally maybe try another approach to get to them?

If you have a guy who can't take criticism at all that's not good. I tend to think the common denominator is McD here.

Quote

“I never believed in treating everyone the same,” Parcells said.

“I don’t believe in consistency as it relates to handling players. I believe in being right for each guy. I tried to do my best to understand what a particular player needed to be pushed to do his best. I felt an obligatory responsibility to give the players what they needed for the best chance to win.”

 

[slats]

6 minutes ago, Biggs said:

The article actually made my negative bias against McDaniels evaporate.  Seems like he has the respect of most of the players and is trying to instill descipline and accountability.  

It confirmed mine. No one questions his heart, but they do question both his play and his mental toughness. I know there are religious players on the Jets, but I just don’t see how having players over for Bible study flies in NYC. And at the numbers getting thrown around for him, the dude would have to be nothing short of great right out of the box here. There would be no honeymoon, no slack given by this fan base or media. It could very easily, very quickly, get as ugly as Russell Wilson in Denver. I think he’d be a horrible post-Zach QB. 

[Tranquilo]

Carr is okay but to put it succinctly, he plays like a pussy

[32EBoozer]

10 minutes ago, JiFields said:

It didnt help's Carr's case when Jarred Stidham took over and absolutely went off vs. the best D in the league in San Fran and took them to OT.  The dude threw for 700 yards and 4 TD's in 2 games as a starter for the Raiders.  Carr is the mush.

Makes me wonder if Stiham's accomplishments last year, takes AR out of the picture in LV? Does AR = Patriots way?

That leaves Jets and Tennessee in on AR. We have a better offensive weapons & defense. That said, you never know what the "Mushroom King" sitting in the dark will decide.

[y2k8]

 

Derek Carr has been wildly successful considering he has had 6 different HCs in 9 seasons.

[y2k8]

3 minutes ago, Tranquilo said:

Carr is okay but to put it succinctly, he plays like a pussy

He sort of reminds me of Kenny O'Brien. 

[RutgersJetFan]

44 minutes ago, slats said:

From the article: “In Gutierrez's book, If These Walls Could Talk, Kennedy, a Raiders' team employee, said of the then-team franchise quarterback: "I like Derek. I think he is a nice guy. Don't get me wrong, but he can be childish and immature, and if somebody says something bad about him, he sulks, like a little boy who takes his ball and goes into the corner. He's a good quarterback."

The article suggests to me that Carr is a guy who needs some coddling, and while I think Saleh is a fully capable coddler I think what the Jets actually need is a QB who doesn’t need that. We can see how the team turned on Zach and in LV, players were questioning Carr’s play as well. 

 

I read it different. It explains that other coaches rode Carr pretty hard too and he handled it fine, but McDaniels is just another level of insufferable douchebag trying too hard to be Bill Belichick all the time and Carr just couldn't deal with it anymore considering his time put in with the organization. Seems like all of this is way more on McDaniels than it is Carr.

[Barry McCockinner]

13 minutes ago, slats said:

It confirmed mine. No one questions his heart, but they do question both his play and his mental toughness. I know there are religious players on the Jets, but I just don’t see how having players over for Bible study flies in NYC. And at the numbers getting thrown around for him, the dude would have to be nothing short of great right out of the box here. There would be no honeymoon, no slack given by this fan base or media. It could very easily, very quickly, get as ugly as Russell Wilson in Denver. I think he’d be a horrible post-Zach QB. 

Explain why having players over for bible study isn't going to fly in NYC? I see this strain of argument littered throughout this forum and it makes zero sense to me.

[JiFtheOracle]

10 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Makes me wonder if Stiham's accomplishments last year, takes AR out of the picture in LV? Does AR = Patriots way?

That leaves Jets and Tennessee in on AR. We have a better offensive weapons & defense. That said, you never know what the "Mushroom King" sitting in the dark will decide.

I highly doubt it, but who knows.  Josh McDaniel's once drafted Tim Tebow in the first round of the NFL draft to play QB, so?

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

3 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Explain why having players over for bible study isn't going to fly in NYC? I see this strain of argument littered throughout this forum and it makes zero sense to me.

I believe he means that the NY/NJ area is beginning to lean Buddhist.

 

[slats]

5 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Explain why having players over for bible study isn't going to fly in NYC? I see this strain of argument littered throughout this forum and it makes zero sense to me.

Maybe it’s my own personal bias, but I think NYC wants a QB with swagger like Namath, not a choir boy. A guy like Joe Burrow would be emperor of this town. As soon as Carr wasn’t playing up to his contract, his religiosity would begin to be subject to ridicule. The average New Yorker isn’t leaning on their imaginary friend in the same way. I just don’t see the alter boy shtick playing here at all. Great play would conceal that, but I also don’t expect great play from Carr. I expect upper mediocrity. 

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

They gave Carr that one-and-done contract before McDaniels got there. They tried to dump Carr three years ago but Gruden put his foot down.

[Green Ghost]

22 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Explain why having players over for bible study isn't going to fly in NYC? I see this strain of argument littered throughout this forum and it makes zero sense to me.

The reason it doesn’t make sense to you is because it’s a dumb narrative.

[Green Ghost]

11 minutes ago, slats said:

Maybe it’s my own personal bias, but I think NYC wants a QB with swagger like Namath, not a choir boy. A guy like Joe Burrow would be emperor of this town. As soon as Carr wasn’t playing up to his contract, his religiosity would begin to be subject to ridicule. The average New Yorker isn’t leaning on their imaginary friend in the same way. I just don’t see the alter boy shtick playing here at all. Great play would conceal that, but I also don’t expect great play from Carr. I expect upper mediocrity. 

I’m assuming you have Mayfield on your list of QBs you want to come here then, no?

[#27TheDominator]

8 minutes ago, slats said:

Maybe it’s my own personal bias, but I think NYC wants a QB with swagger like Namath, not a choir boy. A guy like Joe Burrow would be emperor of this town. As soon as Carr wasn’t playing up to his contract, his religiosity would begin to be subject to ridicule. The average New Yorker isn’t leaning on their imaginary friend in the same way. I just don’t see the alter boy shtick playing here at all. Great play would conceal that, but I also don’t expect great play from Carr. I expect upper mediocrity. 

I think what you are missing is that it isn't "a shtick."  What you are terming religiosity is what gives some of these guys a higher power that they lean on which keeps them from responding to every tweet or folding up when the press gets harsh.  The last Yankee dynasty had a ton of Christian guys that would meet together and they seemed to do pretty well.

[kmnj]

carr is way better than wilson that is the bottom line and he wont cost the jets draft picks-Joe has shown he has  no idea how to get this team a QB so far-Wilson was an epic bust and the rest of his qbs have been trash

arod is not woth the money or the draft capital -his skills have declined and  he is super annoying as well

 

 

[The Crusher]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

They gave Carr that one-and-done contract before McDaniels got there. They tried to dump Carr three years ago but Gruden put his foot down.

I know but blaming everything on Belichick being  a scumbag and proposing the failure of all his assistants are somehow a Karmic debt  being paid brings me great joy. 

[Joe W. Namath]

What went wrong?  Carr stunk.

[The Crusher]

1 minute ago, Green Ghost said:

I’m assuming you have Mayfield on your list of QBs you want to come here then, no?

He is likely deep enough on the list that we might not see our connection to pursuing him. But if we travel past the franchise level, through the good not great level, into the at least he’s better that what we have level? The Holy crap  it’s Baker level is not far behind. 

[The Crusher]

1 minute ago, Joe W. Namath said:

What went wrong?  Carr stunk.

Especially in bad weather. 

[docdhc]

18 minutes ago, slats said:

Maybe it’s my own personal bias, but I think NYC wants a QB with swagger like Namath, not a choir boy. A guy like Joe Burrow would be emperor of this town. As soon as Carr wasn’t playing up to his contract, his religiosity would begin to be subject to ridicule. The average New Yorker isn’t leaning on their imaginary friend in the same way. I just don’t see the alter boy shtick playing here at all. Great play would conceal that, but I also don’t expect great play from Carr. I expect upper mediocrity. 

Im pretty much an atheist but I’m not sure about this take. Sauce talks about God with every interview and he certainly has swagger. There are enough religious guys on every team so I think this is a non issue.  Carr’s sensitive nature might be a problem, though , in a market with a very large press corps following the team at all times. Bottom line to me though is that he would not have been released without flaws, but he’d still be the best QB we’ve had in a generation. 

[Biggs]

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think what you are missing is that it isn't "a shtick."  What you are terming religiosity is what gives some of these guys a higher power that they lean on which keeps them from responding to every tweet or folding up when the press gets harsh.  The last Yankee dynasty had a ton of Christian guys that would meet together and they seemed to do pretty well.

Baseball is not a team sport.  You could have 9 guys who hate each other hit, field and pitch well as individuals and win championships.  The A's did it for years and so did the Yankees.