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Compensatory picks, are they doing what they were intended to do?


Beerfish

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Idzik was doing it right except he couldn't draft worth a damn.  This isn't rocket science.  I'm sure JD is mindful of this tactic.

If Becton and Zack contributed (not to mention the Cam Clark's career ending injury) he wouldn't have had to sign so many FAs.  Losing AVT and Breece early on set him back as well.               

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It was meant to prevent situations like in the NBA where all the stars instantly leave the small market teams, leaving them with nothing.

In the NFL, it tends to reward teams that have stable front offices that have had continued drafting success for years.  For instance if JD keeps drafting well, we won't be able to sign all of our young prospects year after year, and so we would begin to start accruing comp picks. 

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8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Comp picks are generally in the later rounds.  Has Douglas ever had a good pick past the 4th?

Bryce Hall, J. Sherwood, Carter II, J. Pinnock, B. Echols, & J. Marshall, are all ok depth or better.  And BTW and FYI comp picks can be late 3rd rounders as well.

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7 hours ago, Beerfish said:

So I assume compensatory picks came into effect in the first place because teams draft a guy, develop him for 4 or 5 years or so, invest in him, make him into an NFL player and then lose him.  Thus it was decided they deserve compensation.

For the last couple of years the minority coaching and front office rules comes into effect and adds to compensatory  picks when someone takes a minority guy off your staff.  Of course the good teams get the advantage here as well.

What really seems to happen is that the advantage is heavily slanted to the best teams in the league.  You have a really good team, you sign your top guys let a bunch of medium guys go and prudently sign one or two impact guys to fill your biggest holes.

The bad teams sign a ton of FAs, they have the need and the cap space and this seems to be a perpetual circle.  The best teams add 2 or 3 or more comp picks per year, fill the holes of the guys they lost, stay good, the bottom feeders take a number of years to keep adding via FA and get no comp picks.

In addition the better teams can trade for guy short term and lose him to fa or sign guys to short term deals and lose them as Fa adding to their formula.  The lesser teams to attract Fa have to give term and more money.

In the Pats hey day they seemed to have multiple comp picks every year.

Looking at the projected comp picks for this year (the official list will not be out for a while yet but in the past the projections have been fairly close)

San Francisco is projected to have a whopping 7 comp picks this year three 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 7, 7

Dallas 3 picks

Rams 4 (they sucked this year but one year removed from winning it all)

Kansas City 3 picks

The bottom feeders?  Chicago, Houston, Indy, Atlanta, Carolina  Zero,  (And of course the jets have zero as usual, about the only year we actually had comp picks it was the year of the Idzik 12)

TL;DR

I feel that the comp picks formula needs to be perhaps looked at to see if it is really doing what it was intended to do or if in today's cap driven era that it is just keeping the best teams on top.

 

 

Cant fight city hall

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I think free agency in general needs to be revamped in the next CBA. 

The issue is the franchise tag IMO. The best free agents get tagged so it increases the demand & value of lesser players. 

It kind of sucks for everyone. The best players don’t get long term financial security and the owners are stuck paying out bad contracts. 

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8 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

Bryce Hall, J. Sherwood, Carter II, J. Pinnock, B. Echols, & J. Marshall, are all ok depth or better.  And BTW and FYI comp picks can be late 3rd rounders as well.

It was hyperbole, but I kind of think you are making my point.  Hall was inactive all year.  Marshall and Pinnock are on other teams.  Carter II and Echols seem okay and no qualms with the picks but neither has really moved the needle and Sherwood has not shown much of anything yet.  I am fully aware that comp picks can be at the end of the 3rd.  Is there some formula that you guys can devise where the Jets deserve one?   You get to pick at the top of each round for sucking.  How much more should we need? 

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11 hours ago, Beerfish said:

San Francisco is projected to have a whopping 7 comp picks this year three 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 7, 7

Pretty sure the number of comp picks is limited to four. 
 
It’s an imperfect system, but it is doing what it’s intended to do and it’s as a result of the salary cap, not despite it. And of course it favors better teams. Better teams have more good players that they can’t fit under the cap, they get signed for big money and their former team gets a pick in return. Bad teams can’t even find a player of their own that they want to resign. The idea is to take advantage of that system, which is where I suspect JD is trying to get. 

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12 minutes ago, slats said:

Pretty sure the number of comp picks is limited to four. 
 
It’s an imperfect system, but it is doing what it’s intended to do and it’s as a result of the salary cap, not despite it. And of course it favors better teams. Better teams have more good players that they can’t fit under the cap, they get signed for big money and their former team gets a pick in return. Bad teams can’t even find a player of their own that they want to resign. The idea is to take advantage of that system, which is where I suspect JD is trying to get. 

A bunch of those 3s are for coaches, which doesn't apply.

Pro Football Network has them with this.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/san-francisco-49ers-draft-picks-2023-nfl-draft/

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Minority coaching hires like Saleh, Ryan's, and possibly McDaniel will net them each a 3rd round comp - smart organizations should take note of this. Hoping Middleton gets a chance somewhere at some point.

 

The player comp picks are rewarded for teams who draft well. Rather than trading or cutting away talent early to save money or attain early picks, teams are awarded comp picks for retaining a player. (This also extends players careers and allows more players to be drafted)

Smart teams draft well and let talent walk

Bad teams draft poorly and overpay for talent that other teams let walk

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27 minutes ago, slats said:

Pretty sure the number of comp picks is limited to four. 
 
It’s an imperfect system, but it is doing what it’s intended to do and it’s as a result of the salary cap, not despite it. And of course it favors better teams. Better teams have more good players that they can’t fit under the cap, they get signed for big money and their former team gets a pick in return. Bad teams can’t even find a player of their own that they want to resign. The idea is to take advantage of that system, which is where I suspect JD is trying to get. 

So it is doing hat it is supposed to and it favors the best teams.  Why is the draft the way it is?  Worst picks 1st and best picks last?

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8 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Minority coaching hires like Saleh, Ryan's, and possibly McDaniel will net them each a 3rd round comp - smart organizations should take note of this. Hoping Middleton gets a chance somewhere at some point.

 

The player comp picks are rewarded for teams who draft well. Rather than trading or cutting away talent early to save money or attain early picks, teams are awarded comp picks for retaining a player. (This also extends players careers and allows more players to be drafted)

Smart teams draft well and let talent walk

Bad teams draft poorly and overpay for talent that other teams let walk

So why is the draft in reverse order.

If the object of the game is to reward good teams that draft well why is the regular draft in reverse order but the thought to help the bad teams is then reversed by adding a huge amount of picks.

It is a teams choice whether they should sign their free agents or not, they choose not to due to cap reasons, thus they get rewarded.

Having 3 or 4 or 7 extra picks in a draft is a massive advantage, not only for picking players but for trading around in the draft.

I don't mind some kind of competition for this type of thing but it's getting out of hand imo.

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26 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

So it is doing hat it is supposed to and it favors the best teams.  Why is the draft the way it is?  Worst picks 1st and best picks last?

The best teams are hurt the most by the cap. Teams that suck don’t have enough players to pay. The Jets have been one of those crap teams for way too long, but the current GM has been working to dig the team out of that hole. 

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56 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

So why is the draft in reverse order.

If the object of the game is to reward good teams that draft well why is the regular draft in reverse order but the thought to help the bad teams is then reversed by adding a huge amount of picks.

It is a teams choice whether they should sign their free agents or not, they choose not to due to cap reasons, thus they get rewarded.

Having 3 or 4 or 7 extra picks in a draft is a massive advantage, not only for picking players but for trading around in the draft.

I don't mind some kind of competition for this type of thing but it's getting out of hand imo.

Basically what you are complaining about is teams that are well run properly running their teams.  These teams are losing free agents that are getting large contracts and they are not spending on free agents.  The purpose of comp picks is to allow teams to replace players when they have a net loss on free agents, so when good teams are raided they have a chance to restock their team.  There are ways to game the system a bit  - late signings, guys that were cut, cap casualties do not count against the formula.  You are hating the game, when you should be hating the player. 

If we are not getting comp picks, we are not doing it correctly - to be fair, Douglas accelerated many of the comp picks by purging the team in 2019.  McClendon, Willis and Williamson on top of the Jamal deal.  

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1 hour ago, bla bla bla said:

Minority coaching hires like Saleh, Ryan's, and possibly McDaniel will net them each a 3rd round comp - smart organizations should take note of this. Hoping Middleton gets a chance somewhere at some point.

2 3rd round picks per minority hiring.  Honestly, why would you even hire a white assistant at this point.

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14 hours ago, Beerfish said:

So I assume compensatory picks came into effect in the first place because teams draft a guy, develop him for 4 or 5 years or so, invest in him, make him into an NFL player and then lose him.  Thus it was decided they deserve compensation.

For the last couple of years the minority coaching and front office rules comes into effect and adds to compensatory  picks when someone takes a minority guy off your staff.  Of course the good teams get the advantage here as well.

What really seems to happen is that the advantage is heavily slanted to the best teams in the league.  You have a really good team, you sign your top guys let a bunch of medium guys go and prudently sign one or two impact guys to fill your biggest holes.

The bad teams sign a ton of FAs, they have the need and the cap space and this seems to be a perpetual circle.  The best teams add 2 or 3 or more comp picks per year, fill the holes of the guys they lost, stay good, the bottom feeders take a number of years to keep adding via FA and get no comp picks.

In addition the better teams can trade for guy short term and lose him to fa or sign guys to short term deals and lose them as Fa adding to their formula.  The lesser teams to attract Fa have to give term and more money.

In the Pats hey day they seemed to have multiple comp picks every year.

Looking at the projected comp picks for this year (the official list will not be out for a while yet but in the past the projections have been fairly close)

San Francisco is projected to have a whopping 7 comp picks this year three 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 7, 7

Dallas 3 picks

Rams 4 (they sucked this year but one year removed from winning it all)

Kansas City 3 picks

The bottom feeders?  Chicago, Houston, Indy, Atlanta, Carolina  Zero,  (And of course the jets have zero as usual, about the only year we actually had comp picks it was the year of the Idzik 12)

TL;DR

I feel that the comp picks formula needs to be perhaps looked at to see if it is really doing what it was intended to do or if in today's cap driven era that it is just keeping the best teams on top.

 

 

It does the exact OPPOSITE of the intent as it keeps the best rosters the best because they have this constant influx of mid round picks to replenish their roster. I HATE the compensatory picks.

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Basically what you are complaining about is teams that are well run properly running their teams.  These teams are losing free agents that are getting large contracts and they are not spending on free agents.  The purpose of comp picks is to allow teams to replace players when they have a net loss on free agents, so when good teams are raided they have a chance to restock their team.  There are ways to game the system a bit  - late signings, guys that were cut, cap casualties do not count against the formula.  You are hating the game, when you should be hating the player. 

If we are not getting comp picks, we are not doing it correctly - to be fair, Douglas accelerated many of the comp picks by purging the team in 2019.  McClendon, Willis and Williamson on top of the Jamal deal.  

You are not being raided if you choose not to sign your own picks.

You replace medium players with cheap rookies.

Now if people are fine with the best teams getting a great advantage for being good fine, but as I have said why is the draft in reverse order?  Why should the bears be rewarded for winning 2 or 3 games?  These two premises go counter to each other.

Hey I am not against some comp but the way things are set up right now it makes it much easier to stay at the top, much much easier to manage your team over a number of years and much much rougher for the poor teams.

Perhaps the best overall team (talent) in the league is projected 7 comp picks this year.

A new regime comes to a poor team and it is tough to dig yourself out of a hole when dirt is being piled on top of you from above.

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40 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

You are not being raided if you choose not to sign your own picks.

You replace medium players with cheap rookies.

Now if people are fine with the best teams getting a great advantage for being good fine, but as I have said why is the draft in reverse order?  Why should the bears be rewarded for winning 2 or 3 games?  These two premises go counter to each other.

Hey I am not against some comp but the way things are set up right now it makes it much easier to stay at the top, much much easier to manage your team over a number of years and much much rougher for the poor teams.

Perhaps the best overall team (talent) in the league is projected 7 comp picks this year.

A new regime comes to a poor team and it is tough to dig yourself out of a hole when dirt is being piled on top of you from above.

3rd to 7th round picks are only that valuable to teams that draft really well.  Some team getting an extra few 7ths really isn't worth as much as you think.  I think all the picks the Niners got added up value out to around the 75th pick - a mid to high 3rd.  They lost Tomlinson, DJ Jones, Arden Key, KWaun WIlliams, and Mostert and signed Charvarius Ward and Oren Burks.  They lost considerably more than they gained and you can bet that comp pick formula kept them from bidding (or lowered their bid) on a bunch of the guys the Jets wanted to sign.  Loser teams are losers because they do not properly work the system, not because the system is stacked against them.  Look at the value of #3 compared to #12.  Now compare that to every single comp pick added up. 

It doesn't take that much to dig yourself out of a hole.  The Jets have done it.  Even with the literal worst of decisions at QB they were 7-9 and probably make the playoffs with a Brock Osweiler level performance at QB.

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It’s pretty straightforward to earn compensatory draft picks. Don’t have to be a good team to get them. Idzik did it with some terrible Jets teams.

Ultimately I think it’s just a competitive advantage that some well run organizations choose to exploit. Those organizations also tend to do better because they’re well run.

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19 minutes ago, section314 said:

It’s mind boggling that in any sport that has Free Agency that a team gets compensated when a player exercises his right to Free Agency .Just utterly stupid.

"Has free agency?"   Like they have a ******* choice?  They fought that fight way longer than they should have been allowed to.  It is not free agency that creates the comp pick system.  It is the salary cap.  Like Bird rights, they reward a team that drafts well but would not be able to otherwise afford to keep a player.   The tags are the other side of that coin. 

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

3rd to 7th round picks are only that valuable to teams that draft really well.  Some team getting an extra few 7ths really isn't worth as much as you think.  I think all the picks the Niners got added up value out to around the 75th pick - a mid to high 3rd.  They lost Tomlinson, DJ Jones, Arden Key, KWaun WIlliams, and Mostert and signed Charvarius Ward and Oren Burks.  They lost considerably more than they gained and you can bet that comp pick formula kept them from bidding (or lowered their bid) on a bunch of the guys the Jets wanted to sign.  Loser teams are losers because they do not properly work the system, not because the system is stacked against them.  Look at the value of #3 compared to #12.  Now compare that to every single comp pick added up. 

It doesn't take that much to dig yourself out of a hole.  The Jets have done it.  Even with the literal worst of decisions at QB they were 7-9 and probably make the playoffs with a Brock Osweiler level performance at QB.

Actually the jets haven't done it.   We have missed the playoffs for what 12 years or more in a row?  And we are only a 7 win team right now after many changes in regime.  There have been a LOT of very good players picked up from rounds 3 to 7.

Isiah Pacheco a key member of the Chiefs super bowl?  Isaih pacheco one of the last players taken,  Brock Purdy?  Last player in the draft compensatory pick.

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30 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Actually the jets haven't done it.   We have missed the playoffs for what 12 years or more in a row?  And we are only a 7 win team right now after many changes in regime.  There have been a LOT of very good players picked up from rounds 3 to 7.

Isiah Pacheco a key member of the Chiefs super bowl?  Isaih pacheco one of the last players taken,  Brock Purdy?  Last player in the draft compensatory pick.

Exactly.  Good teams are getting quality with the last picks in the draft.  How much help do you need?  Pick at the top of the draft.  Play a sh*tty schedule.  It's not the fact that the Steelers get comp picks that is holding us down. 

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36 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Exactly.  Good teams are getting quality with the last picks in the draft.  How much help do you need?  Pick at the top of the draft.  Play a sh*tty schedule.  It's not the fact that the Steelers get comp picks that is holding us down. 

Know what helps you with later picks in the draft?  Having twice as many as the next guy.  The bottom feeder teams have the most holes, none of them get hole filling picks.  Top teams lose a guy to fa and immediately fills that hole.

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6 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Know what helps you with later picks in the draft?  Having twice as many as the next guy.  The bottom feeder teams have the most holes, none of them get hole filling picks.  Top teams lose a guy to fa and immediately fills that hole.

We had a ton of picks in 2012.  We had 7 picks between 3 and 6 in 2020 and have a punter and a CB that was a healthy scratch for 16 games.  In 2021 we had 6 picks from 5 though 7 and have a good slot, what seems to be a decent 4th CB and a slow S that we are praying can play LB.  Last year we had 7 picks in the first 4 rounds.  There was not going to be room for any developmental late round guys again.  The problem with this team certainly isn't lack of picks.  As I said ten posts ago, the Jets have traded assets which might have garnered comp picks, so I don't see the reason to complain.

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