The combine is dumb

[kevinc855]

Been saying this for years. Same goes for Pro Days. The tape in actual games is the only true metric. Seems some agree 

 

[PepPep]

[Barry McCockinner]

so why do Campbell and the Lions staff attend the combine?

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Been saying this for years. Same goes for Pro Days. The tape in actual games is the only true metric. Seems some agree 

Except metrics that are collected at the combine are pretty highly correlated with success in the NFL at certain positions.  Particularly EDGE rusher.  It's very hard to succeed in the pros as a pass rusher without being an athletic freak.

Also, Mike Maccagnan was notoriously an anti-metrics guy like you.  How'd that work out?

[ganggreen305]

1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

so why do Campbell and the Lions staff attend the combine?

"Business Trip"

 

[bla bla bla]

Combine is useful for a few things:

- Confirm measurements to determine how players fall into historical trends.

- Look for eye popping performances to trigger a review of that players tape

- Meeting with the other owners/GMs

- Interviews with the players

[Beerfish]

I disagree.  Now is it overblown?  Yeah to some extent but it does a few of things.

- It reaffirms player speed and agility.

- player Interviews are important

- Comparisons vs players in the same position is important.

Watching player tape of a guy from west tuskegee state and then a guy from Georgia can be misleading.  Getting a look at both these guys at the same time can be helpful.

If a guy puts up eye popping combine numbers you go back and look t the tape again.  If a guy puts up total dog numbers you look at the tape again.

If a guy puts up dog numbers you wonder if he is serious about his football life.

Jalen Carter interview with a number of teams before the racing story and did not say a thing about it.  That will have an effect.

At times combine does not translate into a good player at times it does.  (See Tariq Woolen last year)

 

[section314]

7 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

so why do Campbell and the Lions staff attend the combine?

To get out of Detroit.

[Beerfish]

I recall before the Desaun watson draft people were questioning his arm talent and velocity from game film, it was in fact 'a thing'.  So he goes to the combine and in the drills you could see his velocity was just as good as almost all QBs and his accuracy was better.  A few guys had bigger arms but were all over the pace with their throws.  (Davis Webb)

[PS17]

Hard disagree. Measuring the players’ athleticism is almost as important as their game tape. To win at the next level, you usually need to be a gifted athlete, or have another special trait going for you. Route running as a receiver, vision as a running back, etc. 

[Trotter]

11 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

so why do Campbell and the Lions staff attend the combine?

Soft hot pretzels - with salt - no mustard

[Jetsfan80]

If I had to guess, kevin is pissed because he got put a on a no-fly list, thus making it difficult for him to show up at the combine to heckle Douglas.

[MR.GANGGREEN28]

At the very least it's really good for networking, for all parties involved.

[David Harris]

29 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Been saying this for years. Same goes for Pro Days. The tape in actual games is the only true metric. Seems some agree 

 

Google Damontre Moore. Giants 3rd round pick in the 2013. 
 

Was a top 10 prospect before the combine, fell to the third because of it and he probably shouldn’t have been drafted even that high due to his physical limitations after a great college career.

[kevinc855]

20 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Meeting with the other owners/GMs

- Interviews with the players

you can do these in other forums. But sure, the non physicals aspects are specifically why campbell says he goes ruling out the 40 times etc

[kevinc855]

13 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If I had to guess, kevin is pissed because he got put a on a no-fly list, thus making it difficult for him to show up at the combine to heckle Douglas.

As someone who has been watching the Jets since Pete Carrol was our HC, I had many opportunities and always passed. 

All prior to pretzel gate

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, David Harris said:

Google Damontre Moore. Giants 3rd round pick in the 2013. 
 

Was a top 10 prospect before the combine, fell to the third because of it and he probably shouldn’t have been drafted even that high due to his physical limitations after a great college career.

 

Yep.  Somehow stuck in the NFL for 10 years (appearing in games in 8 of them) but only recorded 11.0 career sacks, 4 FFs and 12 TFLs over 66 games.

He's currently in the CFL.

[bitonti]

the most important part of the combine is not on camera: the medical exams 

some of these guys it's their first exposure to "real" doctors and they find all sorts of undiagnosed conditions 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

[DoubleDown]

It's not dumb.  It's a way to get unbiased, objective measurements.

In no way, shape, or form should it be used to "grade" a player in full.  But it sure as hell should be a part of the equation.  Accurate physical measurements and performance metrics in an equitable setting matter.

If it was dumb and pointless, you would see multiple team not attend.  They all attend for a reason.  It's valuable information.

[Green DNA]

It is useful but has to be used in combination with game tape.  I don't care how much a physical freak someone is if they haven't performed in games.  I'm sick of high ceiling guys that haven't done squat on the field.  A good example is Stephen Hill, who everyone drooled over after the combine and was a complete bust.  Let's not forget Gholston either.

[Embrace the Suck]

The combine is more about networking with players and other teams. Like a conference, but with live entertainment that is somewhat relevant.

[pointman]

58 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If I had to guess, kevin is pissed because he got put a on a no-fly list, thus making it difficult for him to show up at the combine to heckle Douglas.

Douglas would turn his doughy face inside out without getting winded. 

[jeremy2020]

I, too, think millions of dollars in profit is dumb. I am a financial wizard. 

[pointman]

You all messed up. This is how you all wind up in one of Kevin's hall of fame videos. 

[varjet]

I think in the majority of the cases, a player who is good on the field, on tape, then needs to validate his physicals at the Combine or otherwise.  He could have played against unathletic competition.

There have been instances of players with excellent physicals who did not play well on tape.  Those are players you can take chances on in the later rounds and coach up.  It happens.  The NFL used to take players with superior physicals in the first round who even played little football, like Eric Swann, or even some of those basketball converts.   Those are great finds, but you don’t pick them in the first round.  

As we know, Zach Wilson did not even do most of the Combine testing. You can tell by just looking at him that he is not an NFL QB.  He was not the 2 pick in the draft.  Trey Lance is a physical specimen, but his tape was not great.  He really was not the 3 pick either.  

The Combine, at the first instance, should be used to confirm players who played well in college, and have the physical attributes, to be Day 1-2 draft picks.  

[RutgersJetFan]

I'm gonna need a poorly lit video breaking this all down.

[Scott Dierking]

By just "watching tape", you can wind up with more players like Zach Wilson.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

By just "watching tape", you can wind up with more players like Zach Wilson.

Or a pass rusher with stiff hips, like Lorenzo Mauldin.

But he's a great story who looked decent on tape.  That's all that matters right?

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

1 hour ago, kevinc855 said:

Been saying this for years. Same goes for Pro Days. The tape in actual games is the only true metric. Seems some agree 

 

Watch it Kevin.... JD is still hunting you..

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Except metrics that are collected at the combine are pretty highly correlated with success in the NFL at certain positions.  

Also, Mike Maccagnan was notoriously an anti-metrics guy like you.  How'd that work out?

Counter arguments:  Denzel Mims (Amongst literally tons of other, similar stories of guys with elite metrics who sucked).

Vernon Gholston is another "workout warrior" example of a guy with "elite" metrics who sucked dogs bollocks at actually playing football.

I like metrics, and believe in them....as part of a the bigger picture, not as the picture itself.  Tape, quality of opponents in college, specific production metrics in college games, interviews, references, all count too.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Counter arguments:  Denzel Mims 9Amongst literally tons of other, similar stories).

Vernon Gholston is another "workout warrior" example of a guy with "elite" metrics who sucked dogs bollocks at actually playing football.

I like metrics, and believe in them....as part of a the bigger picture, not as the picture itself.  Tape, quality of opponents in college, specific production metrics in college games, interviews, references, all count too.

 

No one ever said athletically gifted players are a lock to succeed.  Only that it can open doors for some and firmly close doors for others.  

Lots of WRs are ridiculously talented across the league so there are of course numerous other factors for that position in particular that impact who sticks or not.  

[Doggin94it]

1 hour ago, bla bla bla said:

Combine is useful for a few things:

- Confirm measurements to determine how players fall into historical trends.

- Look for eye popping performances to trigger a review of that players tape

- Meeting with the other owners/GMs

- Interviews with the players

It's also incredibly useful for comparative purposes. Everyone is performing in the same conditions, so you don't need to normalize for track, wind, etc. etc. when you are looking at the results.

[pointman]

11 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I'm gonna need a poorly lit video breaking this all down.

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

No one ever said athletically gifted players are a lock to succeed.  Only that it can open doors for some and firmly close doors for others.  

Lots of WRs are ridiculously talented across the league so there are of course numerous other factors for that position in particular that impact who sticks or not.  

Like I said, combine metrics are a part of the picture, one tool for evaluation.

They are not, as I think some here think, the be all, end all.  Good or bad.