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RB's only have them selves to blame for cheap contracts - Greed and stupidity


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31 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Ok well I wanted to make sure I understood what you meant. I guess we just disagree. Seems that team offer the contract you say they won't all the time. Barkley and Jacobs literally just the other day. The reason is because they are game changers. Those players are offered top money. That doesn't make it lower it makes it higher. It raises everyone's boat. Not sure how you don't see that.

Barkley and Jacobs would've gotten higher contracts if they were able to shop around to the league. It's unlikely that the highest contract they could've possibly have gotten was the one they were trapped into accepting as this or nothing, because their respective teams knew their worst case scenario didn't involve losing the player to another team.

One year later, the value for each is lower, so they won't carry a high multi-year average that will boost the franchise tag amount for the next guys.

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Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Barkley and Jacobs would've gotten higher contracts if they were able to shop around to the league. It's unlikely that the highest contract they could've possibly have gotten was the one they were trapped into accepting as this or nothing, because their respective teams knew their worst case scenario didn't involve losing the player to another team.

One year later, the value for each is lower, so they won't carry a high multi-year average that will boost the franchise tag amount for the next guys.

There are few team that would have paid more for them if they had the opportunity. I don't think anyone disputes a great RBs value to winning, Team just will not magically offer 10 mill over the market price, they will offer incrementally more, more and more, like all other positions. As long as the line is moving up the RB position it winning. Holding out and taking the tag or just cheap 1 year deals just hurt your position pay overall. As explain in my original post. 

I mean I could be wrong tho, i mean sure that's the way it works for every other position, just not RB like you think. I'm sure your position is all very possibly and it's definitely not the obvious truth I have presented to you. for free I might ad. You should probably add in a thank you or two for letting you read my thoughts.

Your welcome in advance! 

Maybe you like Berrios to come back or maybe keep mims. sure our team had built depth and developed to th epoint where scrubs are no longer need in the WR room, but maybe you like to suggest something different and ignore the working method that has worked for every team with some other silly idea you have? 

sorry ok this is turning into a rant. lets just stay on topic. 

You were about to admit that greedy and stupid RB's are the reason their pay is so low and that they need to start making the right steps to improve the pay overall by setting the market on deals that while undervalued relative to what they think they shoudl get, are top 10 for RB compensation there by allowing the next guy to get more, so on and so on untill the value is at the point where at TOPO RB can make TOP money to other players that score the same amount of yards and TD's. 

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8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Barkley and Jacobs would've gotten higher contracts if they were able to shop around to the league. It's unlikely that the highest contract they could've possibly have gotten was the one they were trapped into accepting as this or nothing, because their respective teams knew their worst case scenario didn't involve losing the player to another team.

One year later, the value for each is lower, so they won't carry a high multi-year average that will boost the franchise tag amount for the next guys.

also if they end up just getting tagged, or hold out, they coudl still possibly get top dollar but i agree with you seemed unlikely...source history.

They are seemingly just continuing the cycle of stupidity. They should have signed those deal, negotiated for more guaranteed money etc. and kep the boat moving...

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2 hours ago, PS17 said:

Are you just allergic to good takes @BornJetsFan1983

not sure i have ever had a bad take @PS17 but I do spend a lot of time trying to make other see the light. which they usually do al though they never admit it. One guy on here said they were going to rename their cat if I was right. Sadly it never happened. Nor do they ever bring it up in shame.

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4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

No.  Don't you listen to @BornJetsFan1983?  It isn't the market.  It is that these silly RBs are offered huge deals and all turn them down.  Because they are shortsighted?

they did get offered sweet deals they turned down because of ego and greed and stupidity. Do you dispute this? because as of yet you have merely been cheerleading for questionable arguments. 

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17 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

they did get offered sweet deals they turned down because of ego and greed and stupidity. Do you dispute this? because as of yet you have merely been cheerleading for questionable arguments. 

2/$22M is a "sweet deal?"  Under $20M guaranteed which is less guaranteed than Bijan Robinson who has not  played a down.  All this from the team that paid Daniel Jones 4/$160M with $105M guaranteed?  You and I have different ideas of sweet, my friend.  I get that QBs are super important and people are squawking about receivers being so important.  How about TE?  Dawson Knox or Evan Engram vs. Saquon Barkley?  Is that even a conversation?  David Njoku?  Those stiffs all make considerably more than your "sweet deal."  

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2 hours ago, BloodGreen said:

 


Yeah, it sucks that the remaining “bellcows” will get screwed, and the de facto RB 1 will never get paid like the old RB 1 used to. I don’t necessarily blame the teams, when the market price for mediocre QBs is at 30-40 million per, another position will have to take a hit in a cap league.

 

Hopefully there will be some correction wherein teams refuse to pay the likes of Daniel Jones $40M per.

If the market is king as some in this thread have suggested (and there obviously is lots of truth to that), then teams will need to get as smart as possible with their cap space and allocation to survive.  

Daniel Jones should have been the one that got franchise tagged.  Not Barkley.  Even if they had no intent of giving Barkley close to his perceived market value either.  

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Hopefully there will be some correction wherein teams refuse to pay the likes of Daniel Jones $40M per.

If the market is king as some in this thread have suggested (and there obviously is lots of truth to that), then teams will need to get as smart as possible with their cap space and allocation to survive.  

Daniel Jones should have been the one that got franchise tagged.  Not Barkley.  Even if they had no intent of giving Barkley close to his perceived market value either.  

Jones had 4000 total yards last year. In terms of overall value, they’re not even close. 

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30 minutes ago, Larz said:

How did RB contracts become a big story? It’s been this way forever 

fans GIF

I don’t think there’s ever been this many disputes or big names on the market at one time like this before.

In addition to the Barkley and Cook aspect you also have Dobbins unhappy, Josh Jacobs and Pollard getting the tag, and guys like Zeke, Fournette and Kareem Hunt still on the street.

Granted, all 3 of those latter FAs I listed are toast and/or suck, but 2 of them were former early 1st rounders and the other led the NFL in rushing as a rookie.  

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The CBA has made holding out nearly impossible.  And for rookie deal guys you can't even begin negotiating a new deal till year 3.  Meaning Pacheco would have to wait until 2024 at minimum on a new deal.  Given the shelf life of RBs there's no guarantee whatsoever he'll get to that point.

And of course its an issue with collective bargaining.  Especially when the NFL is all-powerful and the NFLPA is its hapless stooge. 

Its also an item they can't negotiate back into the CBA until 2030.

CBA is trash, 

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7 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Jones had 4000 total yards last year. In terms of overall value, they’re not even close. 

4,000 yards means nothing in today’s league.  He is a bottom 8 QB in every metric that matters for a passer over the course of his career (and he’s pretty horrendous in categories like Fumbles , YPA, Completed Air Yards per pass and Sack %) and the supposed “Daboll bump” he got last season was overstated.

I’m not saying you let Jones hit the street or whatever but he’s definitely not worth $40M per w/ $105M guaranteed and that will play out poorly for the Giants over the life of his new deal. 

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7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I don’t think there’s ever been this many disputes or big names on the market at one time like this before.

In addition to the Barkley and Cook aspect you also have Dobbins unhappy, Josh Jacobs and Pollard getting the tag, and guys like Zeke, Fournette and Kareem Hunt still on the street.

Granted, all 3 of those latter FAs I listed are toast and/or suck, but 2 of them were former early 1st rounders and the other led the NFL in rushing as a rookie.  

Oh well. Go dig ditches. 

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

4,000 yards means nothing in today’s league.  He is a bottom 8 QB in every metric that matters for a passer over the course of his career (and he’s pretty horrendous in categories like Fumbles , YPA, Completed Air Yards per pass and Sack %) and the supposed “Daboll bump” he got last season was overstated.

I’m not saying you let Jones hit the street or whatever but he’s definitely not worth $40M per w/ $105M guaranteed and that will play out poorly for the Giants over the life of his new deal. 


Also, there’s this part that’s particularly damning and shows who the true driving force of the offense is:

 

Jones has 44 passing touchdowns and 17 interceptions in games Barkley plays, along with a 91.4 passer rating. He has 16 touchdowns and 17 interceptions in games Barkley doesn't play (77.3 rating).

 

Bryan Cranston Mic Drop GIF

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1 hour ago, jgb said:

1. Salary cap

2. Rookie wage scale

3. franchise tag

That is the league’s holy trinity 

I could not care less about the owners.  I'm coming at all of this strictly from my own selfish view as an NFL football fan.  

As a fan, what in the world is bad about the cap?  Shared revenue and the cap are at the top of the list of factors why the NFL is the most successful sports league in the US.  There are other reasons, but the financial structure of the league is key to the league's popularity and success.  It is why fans will watch a game between the Green Bay Packers and the Buffalo Bills.  It is why the best player in the league - Mahomes - is going to play his entire career in a small market city and not jump to another team.  

 

If the cap goes away (and it is NEVER going away), then NFL teams will stop sharing TV revenues. They will also stop sharing in person game revenues as well.  Then the NFL as we know it ceases to exist and becomes a league of haves and have not franchises.  

As a fan, I don't want a work stoppage.  They are terrible.  I look forward to NFL football and watch virtually every game  - Thursday night, 1-4-8 pm on Sunday, and Monday night.  I love it.  I am entertained by it.  Moreover, I am a die hard Jets fan and want my team to field a winning team every season.  That's all I care about.   I could not care less how much or little money Rodgers or Q or Hall or any other player makes.  I just want them to play and I want what is best for the Jets to win.  And Rodgers and Hall and all the rest of the players don't give a rat's ass about me either (so long as I and others keep watching so the revenue stream continues).  In fact, it is clear that my loyalty to the Jets runs deeper than any player's. Their loyalty is (appropriately) to themselves.  Sometimes those interests clash. When they do, I want what is best for me as a fan. And that means I want the player in camp and on the field.  It means I don't want the Jets to overpay players so that there is not enough money to pay other players and build as talented a roster as possible.  I don't want good players leaving after their initial contracts because they want to play somewhere else for a myriad of reasons.  

 

So when you beat this drum repeatedly, to me you sound like Don Fehr or an agent. You certainly don't sound like a fan to me.  I don't understand at all why you care more about what some player makes and whether that meets some personal definition of fairness rather than caring what is best for the Jets to build a team.  I don't understand why you think hold outs are a good thing when they interfere with the fans' enjoyment of the sport and the competitiveness of the team dealing with the hold out.  To me, the games are what is entertaining.  And my team winning is fun.  Reading about contracts and pay and players' not playing is boring and too much like work.  

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25 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:


Also, there’s this part that’s particularly damning and shows who the true driving force of the offense is:

 

Jones has 44 passing touchdowns and 17 interceptions in games Barkley plays, along with a 91.4 passer rating. He has 16 touchdowns and 17 interceptions in games Barkley doesn't play (77.3 rating).

 

Bryan Cranston Mic Drop GIF

And Todd Gurley gained 885 yards at 3.2 yards a carry on 278 carries in 2016 and had 6 TDs and 1212 total yards  (his second season) when the Rams OL fell apart.  The following season, with a strong and healthy OL, he ran for 4.7 ypc and 1305 yards on 279 carries with 13 TDs and 2093 total yards.  Did the Rams tear up all the contracts for the OL and pay them more in 2018?  It's a team sport.

You could argue that Jones' success was tied to a much improved OL and a quality coaching staff, not Barkley.  

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9 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

And Todd Gurley gained 885 yards at 3.2 yards a carry on 278 carries in 2016 and had 6 TDs and 1212 total yards  (his second season) when the Rams OL fell apart.  The following season, with a strong and healthy OL, he ran for 4.7 ypc and 1305 yards on 279 carries with 13 TDs and 2093 total yards.  Did the Rams tear up all the contracts for the OL and pay them more in 2018?  It's a team sport.

You could argue that Jones' success was tied to a much improved OL and a quality coaching staff, not Barkley.  

The point is there’s no world where Daniel Jones is worth $40M per over 4 while Barkley gets the shaft when the former is pretty clearly NOT the driving force of the offense.  

I’m not saying Saquon should be getting a 4-year megadeal.  2 years, $22M may well have been a fair offer he shouldn’t have turned down.  I’m only saying Jones shouldn’t have gotten HIS.  Combined the optics are terrible and longterm it’s gonna work out poorly for the Giants.  

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2 hours ago, Larz said:

How did RB contracts become a big story? It’s been this way forever 

fans GIF

Has it?  From 1977-1981 four of the five #1 overall picks were RB.  The highest paid player was O.J. and he made double the highest paid QB - plucky Fran Tarkenton.  OTOH, I guess going back to the 70's and 80's is going back "forever." 

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5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Has it?  From 1977-1981 four of the five #1 overall picks were RB.  The highest paid player was O.J. and he made double the highest paid QB - plucky Fran Tarkenton.  OTOH, I guess going back to the 70's and 80's is going back "forever." 

Ok Boomer

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the contemporary market value of the position is driven by the consumers.  everyone wants to see star qb's complete amazing passes to star pass catchers.  it is also why the rules are geared to encouraging offenses to pass a lot more than run. 

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2 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

I could not care less about the owners.  I'm coming at all of this strictly from my own selfish view as an NFL football fan.  

As a fan, what in the world is bad about the cap?  Shared revenue and the cap are at the top of the list of factors why the NFL is the most successful sports league in the US.  There are other reasons, but the financial structure of the league is key to the league's popularity and success.  It is why fans will watch a game between the Green Bay Packers and the Buffalo Bills.  It is why the best player in the league - Mahomes - is going to play his entire career in a small market city and not jump to another team.  

 

If the cap goes away (and it is NEVER going away), then NFL teams will stop sharing TV revenues. They will also stop sharing in person game revenues as well.  Then the NFL as we know it ceases to exist and becomes a league of haves and have not franchises.  

As a fan, I don't want a work stoppage.  They are terrible.  I look forward to NFL football and watch virtually every game  - Thursday night, 1-4-8 pm on Sunday, and Monday night.  I love it.  I am entertained by it.  Moreover, I am a die hard Jets fan and want my team to field a winning team every season.  That's all I care about.   I could not care less how much or little money Rodgers or Q or Hall or any other player makes.  I just want them to play and I want what is best for the Jets to win.  And Rodgers and Hall and all the rest of the players don't give a rat's ass about me either (so long as I and others keep watching so the revenue stream continues).  In fact, it is clear that my loyalty to the Jets runs deeper than any player's. Their loyalty is (appropriately) to themselves.  Sometimes those interests clash. When they do, I want what is best for me as a fan. And that means I want the player in camp and on the field.  It means I don't want the Jets to overpay players so that there is not enough money to pay other players and build as talented a roster as possible.  I don't want good players leaving after their initial contracts because they want to play somewhere else for a myriad of reasons.  

 

So when you beat this drum repeatedly, to me you sound like Don Fehr or an agent. You certainly don't sound like a fan to me.  I don't understand at all why you care more about what some player makes and whether that meets some personal definition of fairness rather than caring what is best for the Jets to build a team.  I don't understand why you think hold outs are a good thing when they interfere with the fans' enjoyment of the sport and the competitiveness of the team dealing with the hold out.  To me, the games are what is entertaining.  And my team winning is fun.  Reading about contracts and pay and players' not playing is boring and too much like work.  

Simply I disagree. As the country has homogenized, there really aren't any big markets any more. Players go to the teams that will practically pay the most, which also means considering state and local taxes. A steakhouse in NYC or LA or Nashville or Vegas or Tampa or Wisconsin is the same thing.  In fact, when players consider among and between state and local tax rates, that matters way more than market size when picking a team. Just happened with Hopkins picking Titans over Pats.'

If there wasn't a cap, TV revenue would still be shared. So if one idiot owner wants to overpay players, why should anyone care. 

There is pretty much zero evidence the cap makes anyone equally competitive. Well-run teams seem to be in the playoffs most seasons, badly ones still suck. 

Would much prefer to never read another single story about salaries or holdouts or caps. 

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2 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

I could not care less about the owners.  I'm coming at all of this strictly from my own selfish view as an NFL football fan.  

As a fan, what in the world is bad about the cap?  Shared revenue and the cap are at the top of the list of factors why the NFL is the most successful sports league in the US.  There are other reasons, but the financial structure of the league is key to the league's popularity and success.  It is why fans will watch a game between the Green Bay Packers and the Buffalo Bills.  It is why the best player in the league - Mahomes - is going to play his entire career in a small market city and not jump to another team.  

 

If the cap goes away (and it is NEVER going away), then NFL teams will stop sharing TV revenues. They will also stop sharing in person game revenues as well.  Then the NFL as we know it ceases to exist and becomes a league of haves and have not franchises.  

As a fan, I don't want a work stoppage.  They are terrible.  I look forward to NFL football and watch virtually every game  - Thursday night, 1-4-8 pm on Sunday, and Monday night.  I love it.  I am entertained by it.  Moreover, I am a die hard Jets fan and want my team to field a winning team every season.  That's all I care about.   I could not care less how much or little money Rodgers or Q or Hall or any other player makes.  I just want them to play and I want what is best for the Jets to win.  And Rodgers and Hall and all the rest of the players don't give a rat's ass about me either (so long as I and others keep watching so the revenue stream continues).  In fact, it is clear that my loyalty to the Jets runs deeper than any player's. Their loyalty is (appropriately) to themselves.  Sometimes those interests clash. When they do, I want what is best for me as a fan. And that means I want the player in camp and on the field.  It means I don't want the Jets to overpay players so that there is not enough money to pay other players and build as talented a roster as possible.  I don't want good players leaving after their initial contracts because they want to play somewhere else for a myriad of reasons.  

 

So when you beat this drum repeatedly, to me you sound like Don Fehr or an agent. You certainly don't sound like a fan to me.  I don't understand at all why you care more about what some player makes and whether that meets some personal definition of fairness rather than caring what is best for the Jets to build a team.  I don't understand why you think hold outs are a good thing when they interfere with the fans' enjoyment of the sport and the competitiveness of the team dealing with the hold out.  To me, the games are what is entertaining.  And my team winning is fun.  Reading about contracts and pay and players' not playing is boring and too much like work.  

The last CBA the players conceded contracts, money etc for less practice time. The owners went for it. The players main ask at the table was to reduce training camp, no more two a days, less time in pads and less practice during game weeks. It’s never going to be a perfect marriage. 

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42 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Simply I disagree. As the country has homogenized, there really aren't any big markets any more. Players go to the teams that will practically pay the most, which also means considering state and local taxes. A steakhouse in NYC or LA or Nashville or Vegas or Tampa or Wisconsin is the same thing.  In fact, when players consider among and between state and local tax rates, that matters way more than market size when picking a team. Just happened with Hopkins picking Titans over Pats.'

If there wasn't a cap, TV revenue would still be shared. So if one idiot owner wants to overpay players, why should anyone care. 

There is pretty much zero evidence the cap makes anyone equally competitive. Well-run teams seem to be in the playoffs most seasons, badly ones still suck. 

Would much prefer to never read another single story about salaries or holdouts or caps. 

If the cap goes away, why would Jerry Jones ever agree to share revenues with a publicly owned team in Green Bay, Wisconsin?  He's going to want the Cowboys to have their own TV contract and keep all the money from this 100,000 seat stadium to pay more to attract big money players.  

Jones would have 2-3 times the spending power of some franchises and it would make the tax issue look like pocket change.  The sport would never be the same.

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20 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

That's my point. They should be for sure getting paid top dollar. But they refuse to up the scale for everyone. As explained

RB's can make top dollar they just cant make top dollar on a long term deal. For instance if you have a RB that's an absolute stud in both the running and passing game ( a true 2300 yard all purpose type guy like a Faulk ) going FA the only team looking at that guy should be a contender and even in that case they should only sign him on a short term deal at the most 2 years possibly 3 because most SB windows for teams are 2-3 years anyway. You just can't take the chance anymore signing a RB to a long term deal on a second contract. Also most of the big contracts now are about guaranteed money how can you give guaranteed money to a RB ? Best way IMHO for a contender to handle the RB position, if they do have a void there, is through the draft 1st or 2nd round and then work that guy as the focal point of the offense with his young legs. Sucks for the RB but its good for the team in that B window

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The thing that makes no sense is there seem to be two common positions about RBs

1) Don't pay them a second contract no matter how good they are

2) Don't draft them in the 1st round

if you want a good player at the position, you kind of have to consider one or the other.  Drafting Breece Hall in the 2nd round was lightning in a bottle.  Either draft the high or pay them after their 1st contract.  Or get really lucky or learn to live with a lesser talent at the position.

Honestly, I find it puzzling how much the league seems to devalue the position.  They touch the ball 30 times a game - far more than any WR - and the great ones elevate offenses in so many ways.  Sure there are situations like the 90s Broncos where it seems like any RB can be successful but to me, Derrick Henry is far more valuable than any WR2 in the league - but his AAV is roughly the same as Corey Davis, and far less than OBJ, Courtland Sutton, and Hunter Renfrow.

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The thing that makes no sense is there seem to be two common positions about RBs
1) Don't pay them a second contract no matter how good they are
2) Don't draft them in the 1st round
if you want a good player at the position, you kind of have to consider one or the other.  Drafting Breece Hall in the 2nd round was lightning in a bottle.  Either draft the high or pay them after their 1st contract.  Or get really lucky or learn to live with a lesser talent at the position.
Honestly, I find it puzzling how much the league seems to devalue the position.  They touch the ball 30 times a game - far more than any WR - and the great ones elevate offenses in so many ways.  Sure there are situations like the 90s Broncos where it seems like any RB can be successful but to me, Derrick Henry is far more valuable than any WR2 in the league - but his AAV is roughly the same as Corey Davis, and far less than OBJ, Courtland Sutton, and Hunter Renfrow.
Remember this... No 5th year on Breece

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

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5 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

So when you beat this drum repeatedly, to me you sound like Don Fehr or an agent. You certainly don't sound like a fan to me. I don't understand at all why you care more about what some player makes and whether that meets some personal definition of fairness rather than caring what is best for the Jets to build a team. I don't understand why you think hold outs are a good thing when they interfere with the fans' enjoyment of the sport and the competitiveness of the team dealing with the hold out.

Because the principles that I most admire about our country matter more to me than my personal entertainment.

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