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I'm Still Not Sold On Zach Wilson


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5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Ooh that’s an easy one.  Maybe it has something to do with Wilson having a $35.5M fully guaranteed contract?  

Rodgers and Wilson are each two of the top 5 highest paid players on the team in ‘23 and ‘24.  Kinda makes it tough to do anything but go super cheap on a 3rd QB spot. 

He wasn't re-signed before we actually traded for Rodgers. But sure, that could easily been part of the reasoning, but White has been in the league for a few years longer than ZW and is now on his 3rd team - but sure - Mike is great. 

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On 8/27/2023 at 10:50 AM, oatmeal said:

Always respect the teams who admit their mistake and moved on from a bust, 9ers traded away 2 1st for Trey and still moved on from the trashbag 

So getting Rodgers wasn’t moving on from Zach?  Trey wouldn’t have been traded away if not for Purdy

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5 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

He wasn't re-signed before we actually traded for Rodgers. But sure, that could easily been part of the reasoning, but White has been in the league for a few years longer than ZW and is now on his 3rd team - but sure - Mike is great. 

Call me crazy but I think Douglas had plans to bring in a veteran starter (always an expensive option) long before White signed with the Dolphins.  And it was always most likely to be Rodgers.  Hence why Hackett was named OC so early in the process.  

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17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Ooh that’s an easy one.  Maybe it has something to do with Wilson having a $35.5M fully guaranteed contract?  

Rodgers and Wilson are each two of the top 5 highest paid players on the team in ‘23 and ‘24.  Kinda makes it tough to do anything but go super cheap on a 3rd QB spot. 

Nope.  Small point, but FWIW Wilson isn't top-5 in 2024.  Overthecap.com doesn't re-sort the future years by cap impact, it just keeps the 2023 order.  Wilson is actually 9th as it stands.  That will change as guys get release and new contracts get renegotiated though.  

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1 minute ago, nycdan said:

Nope.  Small point, but FWIW Wilson isn't top-5 in 2024.  Overthecap.com doesn't re-sort the future years by cap impact, it just keeps the 2023 order.  Wilson is actually 9th as it stands.  That will change as guys get release and new contracts get renegotiated though.  

Got it.  Still an absurdly expensive QB room that made it untenable to bring in even a moderately priced 3rd QB.

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Got it.  Still an absurdly expensive QB room that made it untenable to bring in even a moderately priced 3rd QB.

Fair point.

But look around at who some of the top NFL teams have as their backup QBs.

KC: Blaine Gabbert

CIN: Trevor Siemian

PHI: Marcus Mariota

BUF: Kyle Allen

It's not like any of those teams are likely to contend with their starters out for any significant time.  Nick Foles and Brock Purdy do happen once every few years, but it's rare.  

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that on this team at this time, given the work with Rodgers and the physical talent, Zach Wilson is as good or better a backup than any of the four guys I listed above and should continue to improve as the season goes on. 

YMMV.

 

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15 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Gladly.  Here’s 20, to start with:

 

* Jameis Winston (NO)

* Gardner Minshew (IND)

* Jacoby Brissett (WSH)

* Andy Dalton (CAR)

* Tyrod Taylor (NYG)

* Mitch Trubisky (PIT)

* Davis Mills & Case Keenum (HOU)

* Teddy Bridgewater (DET)

* Tyler Huntley & Josh Johnson (BAL)

* Cooper Rush & Will Grier (DAL)

* Bailey Zappe (NE)

* Taylor Heinicke (ATL)

* Sam Darnold (SF)

* Mike White (MIA)

* PJ Walker (CHI)

* Blaine Gabbert (KC)

* Nick Mullens (MIN)

So without any pushback on this list at all (I don’t have the energy right now, but there’s definitely some reaching going on here), you’re saying 17 teams have a better backup situation than the Jets, which would put them pretty much in the middle of the pack. 
 
I’d also suggest that a number of these teams have unsettled starting QB situations, making a viable backup/alternative all the more important. 
 
But I’ll take middle of the pack for a player I hope never sees the field. 

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25 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

And QBs cant develop and improve?

1 in 20 busted 1st and 2nd round QBs develops even to the level of mid-level starter. All such cases have been for teams other than their drafting team.

So sure he can and probably will improve. But enough to be a franchise QB? Almost certainly not. 

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24 minutes ago, jgb said:

1 in 20 busted 1st and 2nd round QBs develops even to the level of mid-level starter. All such cases have been for teams other than their drafting team.

So sure he can and probably will improve. But enough to be a franchise QB? Almost certainly not. 

And next to never is that guy afforded the right to learn from one of the best QBs ever to learn behind for 2 years while developing. 

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2 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

And next to never is that guy afforded the right to learn from one of the best QBs ever to learn behind for 2 years while developing. 

Every situation is unique. Statistical science smooths out these particularities via large sample sizes.

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No, I am just saying listing a bunch of guys doesn't make you right. There is also the who would you rather have the struggling youngster as the back up or the has-been (not really meaning it to sound so bad)? Sam Darnold was listed who was just bashed un-merilessly here when he was the starter, but is now just better than ZW as a backup?
And no, I don't hate nor am I overly critical of White. He like every other backup QB for the Jets was treated like an unloved god here. After White failed to deliver here, the love moved to Streveler. What is evident here is the vitriol for ZW. Who will be evaluated against impossible standards until he is shipped out and then will be infinitely better than any QB here at the Jets.
To be completely honest, my number one hope is that Zach develops and takes over for Rogers and dominates, leading the Jets to a Super Bowl.

My second greatest hope is that the wishes of the vitriolic mob that purveys these parts have their wish granted , he is traded away, and becomes a hall of famer.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, Bobby816 said:

And QBs cant develop and improve?

I think there’s some major disagreements on how much improvement Wilson showed this preseason. The fact he didn’t make intermediate 15-25 yard throws down the field would be an indicator that he’s still  not very good.

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1 hour ago, Bobby816 said:

And QBs cant develop and improve?

He’s in his 3rd year in the pros and he’s being coached to only throw 3 yard passes.  (And that’s of course all LaFleur’s fault right @Dunnie?)

If he was going to develop into something we’d have seen it by now.  The training wheels level of improvement he’s showing isn’t moving the needle in a significant way.  

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6 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

To be completely honest, my number one hope is that Zach develops and takes over for Rogers and dominates, leading the Jets to a Super Bowl.

My second greatest hope is that the wishes of the vitriolic mob that purveys these parts have their wish granted , he is traded away, and becomes a hall of famer.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

The Geno Smith story.

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3 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I think there’s some major disagreements on how much improvement Wilson showed this preseason. The fact he didn’t make intermediate 15-25 yard throws down the field would be an indicator that he’s still  not very good.

Against 3rd stringers at that.  

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41 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

And next to never is that guy afforded the right to learn from one of the best QBs ever to learn behind for 2 years while developing. 

Actually I posted quite a few instances in another thread where highly drafted young QBs sat behind a HOF/borderline HOF QB and it did nothing for them:

 

  • Marc Wilson (pick 1.15/1980/OAK) - Jim Plunkett
  • Mark Malone (1.28/1980/PIT) - Terry Bradshaw 
  • Oliver Luck (2.44/1982/HOU) - Warren Moon
  • Kelly Stouffer (1.6/1987/STL) - Dave Krieg
  • Dan McGwire (1.16/1991/SEA) - Dave Krieg
  • Tommy Maddox  (1.25/1992/DEN) - John Elway
  • Matt Blundin (2.40/1992/KC) - Joe Montana
  • Todd Collins (2.45/1995/BUF) - Jim Kelly/Warren Moon/Rich Gannon
  • Jim Druckenmiller (1.26/1997/SF) - Steve Young
  • Marques Tuiasosopo (2.59/2001/OAK) - Rich Gannon
  • Patrick Ramsey (1.32/2002/WSH) - Mark Brunell  @Warfish
  • Byron Leftwich (1.7/2003/JAX) - Mark Brunell
  • Kyle Boller (1.19/2003/BAL) - Steve McNair
  • Jason Campbell (1.25/2005/WSH) - Mark Brunell
  • Matt Leinart (1.10/2006/AZ) - Kurt Warner  @T0mShane
  • Brian Brohm (2.56/2008/GB) - Aaron Rodgers
  • Jimmy Clausen (2.48/2010/CAR) - Cam Newton
  • Christian Ponder (1.12/2011/MIN) - Donovan McNabb
  • Brandon Weeden (1.22/2012/CLE) - Tony Romo
  • Brock Osweiler (2.57/2012/DEN) - Peyton Manning
  • DeShone Kizer (2.52/2017/CLE) - Aaron Rodgers
  • Josh Rosen (1.10/2018/AZ) - Tom Brady/Matt Ryan


You’ll notice Todd Collins and Josh Rosen sat behind MULTIPLE HOF/borderline HOF QBs.  They still sucked. 

Meanwhile you have on your side….Steve Young and Rich Gamnon?  Each of which might as well have been playing a completely different game than the one that’s played today.  

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Actually I posted quite a few instances in another thread where highly drafted young QBs sat behind a HOF/borderline HOF QB and it did nothing for them:
 
  • Marc Wilson (pick 1.15/1980/OAK) - Jim Plunkett
  • Mark Malone (1.28/1980/PIT) - Terry Bradshaw 
  • Oliver Luck (2.44/1982/HOU) - Warren Moon
  • Kelly Stouffer (1.6/1987/STL) - Dave Krieg
  • Dan McGwire (1.16/1991/SEA) - Dave Krieg
  • Tommy Maddox  (1.25/1992/DEN) - John Elway
  • Matt Blundin (2.40/1992/KC) - Joe Montana
  • Todd Collins (2.45/1995/BUF) - Jim Kelly/Warren Moon/Rich Gannon
  • Jim Druckenmiller (1.26/1997/SF) - Steve Young
  • Marques Tuiasosopo (2.59/2001/OAK) - Rich Gannon
  • Patrick Ramsey (1.32/2002/WSH) - Mark Brunell  [mention=5413]Warfish[/mention]
  • Byron Leftwich (1.7/2003/JAX) - Mark Brunell
  • Kyle Boller (1.19/2003/BAL) - Steve McNair
  • Jason Campbell (1.25/2005/WSH) - Mark Brunell
  • Matt Leinart (1.10/2006/AZ) - Kurt Warner  [mention=9582]T0mShane[/mention]
  • Brian Brohm (2.56/2008/GB) - Aaron Rodgers
  • Jimmy Clausen (2.48/2010/CAR) - Cam Newton
  • Christian Ponder (1.12/2011/MIN) - Donovan McNabb
  • Brandon Weeden (1.22/2012/CLE) - Tony Romo
  • Brock Osweiler (2.57/2012/DEN) - Peyton Manning
  • DeShone Kizer (2.52/2017/CLE) - Aaron Rodgers
  • Josh Rosen (1.10/2018/AZ) - Tom Brady/Matt Ryan

You’ll notice Todd Collins and Josh Rosen sat behind MULTIPLE HOF/borderline HOF QBs.  They still sucked. 
Meanwhile you have on your side….Steve Young and Rich Gamnon?  Each of which might as well have been playing a completely different game than the one that’s played today.  
...and Aaron Rogers.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

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23 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Actually I posted quite a few instances in another thread where highly drafted young QBs sat behind a HOF/borderline HOF QB and it did nothing for them:

 

  • Marc Wilson (pick 1.15/1980/OAK) - Jim Plunkett
  • Mark Malone (1.28/1980/PIT) - Terry Bradshaw 
  • Oliver Luck (2.44/1982/HOU) - Warren Moon
  • Kelly Stouffer (1.6/1987/STL) - Dave Krieg
  • Dan McGwire (1.16/1991/SEA) - Dave Krieg
  • Tommy Maddox  (1.25/1992/DEN) - John Elway
  • Matt Blundin (2.40/1992/KC) - Joe Montana
  • Todd Collins (2.45/1995/BUF) - Jim Kelly/Warren Moon/Rich Gannon
  • Jim Druckenmiller (1.26/1997/SF) - Steve Young
  • Marques Tuiasosopo (2.59/2001/OAK) - Rich Gannon
  • Patrick Ramsey (1.32/2002/WSH) - Mark Brunell  @Warfish
  • Byron Leftwich (1.7/2003/JAX) - Mark Brunell
  • Kyle Boller (1.19/2003/BAL) - Steve McNair
  • Jason Campbell (1.25/2005/WSH) - Mark Brunell
  • Matt Leinart (1.10/2006/AZ) - Kurt Warner  @T0mShane
  • Brian Brohm (2.56/2008/GB) - Aaron Rodgers
  • Jimmy Clausen (2.48/2010/CAR) - Cam Newton
  • Christian Ponder (1.12/2011/MIN) - Donovan McNabb
  • Brandon Weeden (1.22/2012/CLE) - Tony Romo
  • Brock Osweiler (2.57/2012/DEN) - Peyton Manning
  • DeShone Kizer (2.52/2017/CLE) - Aaron Rodgers
  • Josh Rosen (1.10/2018/AZ) - Tom Brady/Matt Ryan


You’ll notice Todd Collins and Josh Rosen sat behind MULTIPLE HOF/borderline HOF QBs.  They still sucked. 

Meanwhile you have on your side….Steve Young and Rich Gamnon?  Each of which might as well have been playing a completely different game than the one that’s played today.  

You have to stop demolishing poor Bobby every day or he’s going to go back to his other message board.

Hmmm, on second thought…. 

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4 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

...and Aaron Rogers.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

8 of the instances I listed happened AFTER Rodgers was drafted, but sure, hold onto that hope.  Especially since Rodgers himself did so much for Brian Brohm!

Excited to see how Jordan Love performs too.

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5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Call me crazy but I think Douglas had plans to bring in a veteran starter (always an expensive option) long before White signed with the Dolphins.  And it was always most likely to be Rodgers.  Hence why Hackett was named OC so early in the process.  

Yep, why not give the start to the great Mike White.

I agree; sadly they had to beg Hackett to take the job as people thought the Jets had to rebuild again. I am sure part of it was wanting AR; glad both are here.

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4 hours ago, jgb said:

He has never put a game together to make me believe he has an appreciable chance to be a franchise QB, no.

That is fair, but to call him the worst QB ever; no hit wonder, trash, garbage and a like that many on this board calls him is where. my issue is - not saying you said these things. But this all started when I questions the great Mike White and someone said MW may better a one-hit wonder than a no-hit <something mean - can't remember>. Did you think that after the one game against Cincinnati MW was a franchise QB?  Never have I said ZW is great - but he has played well this preseason - and AFAIAC he is a quality #2 who I hope never hits the field.

Zach had a couple of good wins. Not seeing it shows me that maybe people are not being very open minded.

While I think he has not lived up to his billing and the likely hood of him becoming a franchise QB is quite low - I don't hate him, think he is trash, and I certainly don't think he is the worst QB ever. Nor is he satan. I also don't therefore think that everyone is therefore better than him - and that includes a previous starting QB who people said the same things about up until he was on another team and ZW was here.

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3 hours ago, Dunnie said:

To be completely honest, my number one hope is that Zach develops and takes over for Rogers and dominates, leading the Jets to a Super Bowl.

My second greatest hope is that the wishes of the vitriolic mob that purveys these parts have their wish granted , he is traded away, and becomes a hall of famer.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

No worries - as soon as the Jets give up on him and they bring in someone else who throws a single bad pass - ZW will be instantly elevated to a quality back up and is way better than the garbage QB the GM had the audacity to sign/draft.

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7 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

That is fair, but to call him the worst QB ever; no hit wonder, trash, garbage and a like that many on this board calls him is where.

Oh no people are quippy on the internet and every one of my tens of thousands of posts doesn’t contain my full thesis on the relevant subject. I’ve posted voluminous amounts of data for my belief that his chances to “turn it around” as a Jet are sub-5% but you guys would rather take a 2 word post in a vacuum, interpret it strictly literally and in bad faith, then accuse me of not being thoughtful. It’s weak and pathetic and demonstrative of an extraordinarily poor position.

Boo, sir.

 

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18 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

That is fair, but to call him the worst QB ever;

but he is. we posted the stats last year. maybe @Jetsfan80 has them saved for quick reference in case you forgot. sorry but i didnt save it cause i didnt think i would have to prove it again.

nobody who has ever started 20 games or more was worst than Zach Wilson. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, jgb said:

Oh no people are quippy on the internet and every one of my tens of thousands of posts doesn’t contain my full thesis on the relevant subject. I’ve posted voluminous amounts of data for my belief that his chances to “turn it around” as a Jet are sub-5% but you guys would rather take an 2 word post in a vacuum, interpret it strictly literally and in bad faith, then accuse me of not being thoughtful. It’s weak and pathetic and demonstrative of an extraordinarily poor position.

Boo, sir.

 

I said many - and my problem is with the no-hit blunder comments. Not sure who even said that. Said you comments were 'fair'. I am the one who is being judged purely because I had the audacity to say that ZW wasn't that bad and had a decent preseason. 

And, when I said that I thought ZW is abetter backup than the great MW I, of all people on this site, was accused of discussing MW with vitriol. That is the boo - I actually think ZW is better and has more potential than MW - but it isn't because of any personal insight, I just apparently hate MW. Read my threads and the responses - maybe you should be others or yourself. I don't hate or resent any player based on capabilities - maybe you should check my posts before judging me.

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1 hour ago, bostonmajet said:

the ZW hate is amazing...

Amazing?  Really?  And what did the post of mine you quote have to do with your emotions?  It’s a true statement:  A QB with a limited ceiling but low floor is “boring” at best.  

Refute the point.  Go ahead.  Tell me where this secret ceiling or high floor is for Zach.  

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