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Is the narrative on JD failing to develop the OL fair?


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3 minutes ago, hawk said:

GM's must have at minimum 30 Offensive Lineman at their disposal at all times, or Like alll the great ones, he can not allow any lineman to get hurt.  They must be able to predict the future of who will get injured.  

Fire JD!

in the long run no one cares if they all got hurt.

In the words of yoda, you do or you do not there is no try.

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Joe did neglect the O line. By doing so he set up Zach or any quarterback he drafted for failure. No O line a rookie head coach and a first time O co-ordinator is a recipe for failure. He should have paid more attention to the O line and O co-ordinator that was hired. My opinion.

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Unfortunately his 3 big moves have been marred with injury and underperformance. Becton and AVT are obviously talented guys but have major injury concerns. Laken, while have a nice bounce back year, was bad last year. I think he’s a good judge of talent at the end of the day just can’t predict injuries. Even Tippman looks like a solid pick

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10 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

Many of the injuries and/or poor returns are not an excusable when they were actually very foreseeable. In FA, the overwhelming majority of JD's pickups have been old players already on the decline who their former teams decided to cut bait with. In the end, it turns out their old GM was right and JD very wrong.

Even Becton had major red flags all over the place going into the draft about his physical conditioning and sustainability in the NFL, so it's not ok when gambling a high first rounder on that and all of the concerns are proven true for his first 3 years. Fingers crossed year 4 might finally not be a total failure.

AVT's situation was certainly less foreseeable, but when having such a poor overall team and still putting a high first rounder into a guard, a position the overwhelming majority of the NFL addresses with far less of an investment, it better be a HOF level talent or it's still a poor pick.

Bottom line, GMs don't get paid millions to be excused for continual failures at a job only 32 people in the world even get to have a crack at. But hey, at least they got themselves a 6th DE with this year's top pick right?

Avt was a great pick. He has proven that he can play at a high level all over the offensive line and we moved up to snag him to protect the QB who we drafted with the second overall pick. I don't understand the logic of this (our offensive line is bad we should have waited and took swings on lesser prospects later in the draft?)

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Injuries aside, this is one thing JN can be a bit critical about when it comes to JD. This was supposed to be his forte, however he has not done a good job putting together a unit that can stay on the field. If we are going to compete for anything, we need to fix this before the trade deadline, and also next offseason and draft. Tippman is a good start, move AVT back to where he belongs at LG, find a RT and RG next year. Becton is the wild card and hopefully he can continue to improve.

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11 hours ago, Squirt said:

Joe did neglect the O line. By doing so he set up Zach or any quarterback he drafted for failure. No O line a rookie head coach and a first time O co-ordinator is a recipe for failure. He should have paid more attention to the O line and O co-ordinator that was hired. My opinion.

That is incorrect.

Since Zach was drafted.  Left tackle in 1st round.   Guard first round.   Pro bowl guard in FA.  Center in 2nd round.

They've just all been hurt.  Becton, you can argue Wirfs was the pick.  Tomlinson made sense, he knew the offense and wasn't old for a guard.   AVT had no injury history.  Tippman had no injury history.

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11 hours ago, Squirt said:

Joe did neglect the O line. By doing so he set up Zach or any quarterback he drafted for failure. No O line a rookie head coach and a first time O co-ordinator is a recipe for failure. He should have paid more attention to the O line and O co-ordinator that was hired. My opinion.

He used 1st rounders on Becton and AVT (who he traded up for).  He also just used a 2nd rounder on Tippmann.  And he signed a FA in Laken, who I think made the pro bowl the season prior.

 

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1 minute ago, Larz said:

There’s a huge shortage league wide, especially depth. Young guys see oline as thankless and no fun so they want to play dline. 
 

He seems to favor too many really old guys tho. 

As of 2 weeks ago, 3 of his starters were under 25.

Brown is old.  

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I happen to think our OL is chronically underrated, and has been for some time.  First off, by most league metrics we have at least a league average OL, and in some other metrics we are slightly above average (particularly run blocking).   All this with a great deal of youth contributing (which usually means there is an arrow pointing upwards on their future)

I don't think fans realize just how bad the OL situation is league wide, with most teams having what would be considered jag units by the standards of say 2015.

Meanwhile, I would say our biggest issue has been injury and continuity and frankly other than Becton none of our guys really have particularly bad reputations for injury before our GM got them.

End of the day, I would say we had 3 really strong young assets (AVT/Tipman/Becton) which are performing at either the elite level, or just under it.  We have a very solid FA starting center (McGovern has consistently graded out as an above average starter in this league for a very long time).  And we have two borderline backup/starter caliber players in Brown/Laken.  Brown I think was playing with injury which was why he didnt look great and Laken in particular is really the only big disappointment IMO where you can point fingers at the GM (for whatever reason his production stopped the second he went to the Jets).

So I would give JD high marks for this rebuild, and I don't blame him for the fact that the football gods hate the Jets.

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13 minutes ago, Hael said:

I happen to think our OL is chronically underrated, and has been for some time.  First off, by most league metrics we have at least a league average OL, and in some other metrics we are slightly above average (particularly run blocking).   All this with a great deal of youth contributing (which usually means there is an arrow pointing upwards on their future)

I don't think fans realize just how bad the OL situation is league wide, with most teams having what would be considered jag units by the standards of say 2015.

Meanwhile, I would say our biggest issue has been injury and continuity and frankly other than Becton none of our guys really have particularly bad reputations for injury before our GM got them.

End of the day, I would say we had 3 really strong young assets (AVT/Tipman/Becton) which are performing at either the elite level, or just under it.  We have a very solid FA starting center (McGovern has consistently graded out as an above average starter in this league for a very long time).  And we have two borderline backup/starter caliber players in Brown/Laken.  Brown I think was playing with injury which was why he didnt look great and Laken in particular is really the only big disappointment IMO where you can point fingers at the GM (for whatever reason his production stopped the second he went to the Jets).

So I would give JD high marks for this rebuild, and I don't blame him for the fact that the football gods hate the Jets.

Good points here. Obviously qb play influences how the oline plays as do the receivers and so on.  The biggest issue, imo, is that the jets haven’t had an oline consistently on the field for long periods of time.  Douglas has at least brought in some good talent and built up the depth. An improving Zach will help.

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25 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

My biggest knock on JD going into this year was not having one more quality depth piece at OT. Billy Turner aint it. Going into the season with an old and banged up Duane Brown, and uncertainty with Becton's ability to stay healthy was a red flag for me. 

In my opinion, Aaron Rodgers had an indirect control of the roster due to his enormous 35M contribution--as well as a prior agreement to get his players--before he signed the contract with the team. That's how the NY Jets roster ended up with burned and overrated players such as Turner, Cobb and Lazard and possibly Cook as well..

 

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2 hours ago, Same Old Jets said:

In my opinion, Aaron Rodgers had an indirect control of the roster due to his enormous 35M contribution--as well as a prior agreement to get his players--before he signed the contract with the team. That's how the NY Jets roster ended up with burned and overrated players such as Turner, Cobb and Lazard and possibly Cook as well..

 

I cannot disagree with you. Turner and Cobb have Rodgers written all over it. Lazard may have come here anyway, but he was strongly influenced by Rodgers. 

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In my opinion, the biggest mistake THIS year was over relying on 39 year old Duane Brown and then handing him the starting job.

Bad read on someone who was awful to start the year.  It is ultimately the GM’s job to understand if Brown’s subpar play last year was strictly injury related or also a sign of diminishing skill.  

The answer seems to include diminishing skill … and there is a chance we’ve seen the last of Brown.

If JD evaluated Brown correctly heading into this year (and conceded that Mitchell is not anything more than decent depth on the heels of his blood clot recovery), he would likely have been more aggressive picking up another starting caliber OT in free agency.  (Thank God Becton has overcome the odds in his comeback, otherwise this situation would be even worse).

Nobody could have predicted the horrible injury luck in 2022.

But JD made a huge mistake not getting another starting quality tackle in 2023.  The domino effect might have resulted in AVT’s own injury after kicking out to RT.

The ideal OL in 2024 could have been implemented a full year earlier with some better player evaluation (Brown, Mitchell; AVT’s suitability for RT).  

Becton, Tomlinson, Tippmann, AVT, _______.

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There’s no doubt injuries have played a big part in the OL not being as strong as we would’ve liked.  Becton and AVT are very good when they’re healthy.  Tippman also looks like a solid pick by Joe and even Max Mitchell showed us something last year.  So for the most part Joe has drafted OL well but injuries have hurt.  Now when it comes to free agency that’s another story, Tomlinson had not been good 

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I think you could make the argument that JD has made questionable decisions in 3 areas:

1. Too reliant and poor evaluation of the veteran signings

2. Reaching for potential more than just taking the surer thing.

3. Being impatient In the draft If we had just let things fall to us and not got all googly eyed about Becton's 40 time we could have drafted Wirfs, Darrishaw and Creed Humphrey along with like 3 other players with the picks we gave up

I think JD wants the best OL in the NFL as opposing to sort of guaranteeing a solid OL and looking for upside.

I sometimes think that JDs closeness to the position has caused him to not use the same criteria and processes for OL as he has for other positions.

Having said all that, the Jets HAVE to figure out why we are so routinely devastated with injuries on the OL. 

 

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I think Joe thought that he'd completed his rebuild of the OL when he drafted AVT in the first round. IIRC he even moved up to get him, to play Guard. Good guards can be regularly got later in the draft. That had a "final piece of the puzzle" feel to it.

I think his big mistake was going into 2022 assuming that Becton and Fant, who'd both had ended the season with knee injuries, would be back at OT and stay healthy. His only real move at OT in the offseason was drafting Max Mitchell in the 4th round. He was a good pick there, but a developmental guy. Depth was crappy, and it all fell apart, even with the fortunate signing of Morgan Moses in TC.  

And this has, twice now, resulted in them moving AVT to OT, where has twice now quickly suffered season ending injuries.

The Jets are still scrambling at OT. And they still have a starting C who gets beaten far too often, but at least that guy stays healthy.

 

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If they were injury prone, then yes, this would be on him. But they weren’t. It’s just Jets luck. 

Tippman, Becton, AVT would be a more than solid OL and imo, still can be.  They’re all young. OL play until late 30s. 

Tomlinson had a bad start to his Jets career but is now playing like we expected. 

Also OLs across the league are constantly beat up. This isn’t just the Jets. 

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I guess I just don’t understand how you can blame him for the OL injuries. 
 

Becton, AVT, and Tippman are all pretty big talents. 2 of the 3 have had multiple season-ending injuries that nobody could have predicted (both were durable players in college) and now Tippman appears to have a serious injury after a promising start to his rookie year. Another durable college player who gets hurt almost immediately as a Jet. 
 

Tomlinson may have been a bad signing although he is playing much better this year than last year, so far. 
 

Mitchell was a solid 4th round pick. I think Clark could have been a player, but he suffered a career ending injury. 
 

Duane Brown was basically an NFL Iron Man at left tackle. He comes to the jets and immediately years his rotator cuff. 
 

I don’t know, just so much bad injury luck. 

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34 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

 They’re all young. OL play until late 30s. 

Bull. They turn into pumpkins around 30. Rarely go past 35. Guys like Duane Brown should not be relied upon as a starter

34 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Also OLs across the league are constantly beat up. This isn’t just the Jets. 

This is excuse making 

These are my week 7 ranks even accounting for injuries 

Sfo might be too high if Trent Williams sits 

1    Philadelphia    0    36.80    RT Lane Johnson (ankle) expected to play (STILL IN RANKS).
2    Dallas    0    35.63    BYE WEEK
3    Kansas City    0    34.25    
4    Detroit    0    33.80    RG Kayode Awosika for Hal. Vaitai
5    Atlanta    0    33.13    
6    Baltimore    0    33.13    
7    San Francisco    1    33.00    
8    Buffalo    1    32.75    
9    Cleveland    14    32.50    LG Joel Bitonio returns Week 7.
10    Tampa Bay    0    32.38    
11    Denver    0    32.25    
12    New Orleans    -5    32.20    RT Ryan Ramczyk (concussion) and LG James Hurst (knee) out for TNF. Line shuffle Andrus Peat to LT, Cam Erving to RT.
13    Houston    -1    32.13    BYE WEEK
14    Jacksonville    2    31.88    RG Brandon Scherff (knee) questionable for TNF (STILL IN RANKS)
15    Minnesota    -2    31.80    LG Ezra Cleveland (foot), Dalton Risner replaced.
17    LA Chargers    2    31.75    
16    Cincinnati    -2    31.75    LT Orlando Brown Jr (knee) replaced by Cody Ford, Brown should play Week 8 (STILL IN RANKS) BYE WEEK
18    Carolina    -3    31.73    BYE WEEK
19    Las Vegas    -2    31.63    
20    Indianapolis    -2    31.60    RT Braden Smith (hip) still out multiple weeks.
21    New England    -1    31.15    LG Atonio Mafi, RG Sidy Sow and RT Vederian Lowe all starting.
22    Arizona    -1    31.13    
23    Pittsburgh    7    31.00    LT Dan Moore and RG James Daniels to return Week 7.
24    Green Bay    -2    30.88    
25    Miami    -1    30.63    
26    Seattle    0    30.50    
27    LA Rams    -2    30.38    
28    Washington    0    30.13    
29    Chicago    -2    29.88    RG Nate Davis missed Week 6, Ja'Tyre Carter replaced.
30    NY Jets    -1    29.10    RG Joe Tippmann (quad) likely out several weeks, Wes Schweitzer replaced.
31    Tennessee    0    28.80    BYE WEEK
32    NY Giants    0    28.00    LG Justin Pugh started Week 6, moved to LT, Josh Ezeudu (toe) to IR, Tyre Phillips to replace.

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58 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Bull. They turn into pumpkins around 30. Rarely go past 35. Guys like Duane Brown should not be relied upon as a starter

This is excuse making 

These are my week 7 ranks even accounting for injuries 

Sfo might be too high if Trent Williams sits 

1    Philadelphia    0    36.80    RT Lane Johnson (ankle) expected to play (STILL IN RANKS).
2    Dallas    0    35.63    BYE WEEK
3    Kansas City    0    34.25    
4    Detroit    0    33.80    RG Kayode Awosika for Hal. Vaitai
5    Atlanta    0    33.13    
6    Baltimore    0    33.13    
7    San Francisco    1    33.00    
8    Buffalo    1    32.75    
9    Cleveland    14    32.50    LG Joel Bitonio returns Week 7.
10    Tampa Bay    0    32.38    
11    Denver    0    32.25    
12    New Orleans    -5    32.20    RT Ryan Ramczyk (concussion) and LG James Hurst (knee) out for TNF. Line shuffle Andrus Peat to LT, Cam Erving to RT.
13    Houston    -1    32.13    BYE WEEK
14    Jacksonville    2    31.88    RG Brandon Scherff (knee) questionable for TNF (STILL IN RANKS)
15    Minnesota    -2    31.80    LG Ezra Cleveland (foot), Dalton Risner replaced.
17    LA Chargers    2    31.75    
16    Cincinnati    -2    31.75    LT Orlando Brown Jr (knee) replaced by Cody Ford, Brown should play Week 8 (STILL IN RANKS) BYE WEEK
18    Carolina    -3    31.73    BYE WEEK
19    Las Vegas    -2    31.63    
20    Indianapolis    -2    31.60    RT Braden Smith (hip) still out multiple weeks.
21    New England    -1    31.15    LG Atonio Mafi, RG Sidy Sow and RT Vederian Lowe all starting.
22    Arizona    -1    31.13    
23    Pittsburgh    7    31.00    LT Dan Moore and RG James Daniels to return Week 7.
24    Green Bay    -2    30.88    
25    Miami    -1    30.63    
26    Seattle    0    30.50    
27    LA Rams    -2    30.38    
28    Washington    0    30.13    
29    Chicago    -2    29.88    RG Nate Davis missed Week 6, Ja'Tyre Carter replaced.
30    NY Jets    -1    29.10    RG Joe Tippmann (quad) likely out several weeks, Wes Schweitzer replaced.
31    Tennessee    0    28.80    BYE WEEK
32    NY Giants    0    28.00    LG Justin Pugh started Week 6, moved to LT, Josh Ezeudu (toe) to IR, Tyre Phillips to replace.

Tippman, AVT and Becton aren’t young? Interesting. News to me.

And idk wtf this list is. And why I should care? 

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6 hours ago, bealeb319 said:

Avt was a great pick. He has proven that he can play at a high level all over the offensive line and we moved up to snag him to protect the QB who we drafted with the second overall pick. I don't understand the logic of this (our offensive line is bad we should have waited and took swings on lesser prospects later in the draft?)

Was he really, though? In a crazy-deep OL draft, Douglas moved up to #14 to take AVT - specifically to play him at guard - for

  • Pick #23 (Darrisaw)
  • #66 + #86 (if pairing them together, as Douglas did in that move-up, they would equal roughly pick #48)

OK, hindsight is easy & we wouldn't have known who'd have been available at what pick at the time, but not everyone was happy with the trade-up when it happened.

The way it unfolded... Darrisaw at #23 + Humphrey at #48-50something >>>>>> AVT

Failing on the opportunity cost makes AVT not such a great pick imo, even if he's a solid and surprisingly versatile starter when he's in there (which, it must be said, will be less than half the time over the first 3 seasons). And that's still independent of taking Zach at #2 and Elijah Moore at #35.

Shame of it Douglas drafted a pretty decent haul for day 2. MC1 hasn't looked good since his rookie season, but MC2 and Sherwood in Round 5 are still semi-starters today. Echols & Pinnock were at worst solid depth for 5th & 6th round picks - at least both look like they belong in the league, and most taken in those rounds don't. None are all-pro players, but collectively that's a better than average return for a handful of day 3 draft picks, particularly in rounds 5 and later. 

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1 hour ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Tippman, AVT and Becton aren’t young? Interesting. News to me.

And idk wtf this list is. And why I should care? 

If a person only look at the Jets and Jets games they have no context where they relate compared to other offensive lines 

That list is my offensive line rankings for this week. I can't make you care but there's no point in counting Tippmann and avt among the Jets line grade 

Also the giants line stinks with Justin Pugh at left tackle and are beating Washington right now 

A team doesn't need a great or even good line to score points. As usual it comes down to the qb 

And ours can't throw for more than 200 a game 

 

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19 hours ago, Beerfish said:

in the long run no one cares if they all got hurt.

In the words of yoda, you do or you do not there is no try.

Unfortunately, Yoda's words are true.

Unfortunately, Yoda's words don't tell the whole story.  

JD has drafted Mekhi Becton, Cameron Clark, AVT, Max Mitchell, Joe Tippeman, and Carter Warren.

Becton and AVT have missed two whole seasons with injuries, Mitchell missed one season, Tippeman will miss significant time, Warren hasn't played yet, and Clark lost his career to injuries.  

So yes, Yoda is right: There is no try.

But if any team had this kind of luck with injuries with their draft picks, they would want to find Yoda and choke him. 

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8 hours ago, chirorob said:

That is incorrect.

Since Zach was drafted.  Left tackle in 1st round.   Guard first round.   Pro bowl guard in FA.  Center in 2nd round.

They've just all been hurt.  Becton, you can argue Wirfs was the pick.  Tomlinson made sense, he knew the offense and wasn't old for a guard.   AVT had no injury history.  Tippman had no injury history.

Why is JD so hell bent on having best DL, or best D in NFL? The McDonald pick just reinforces the obvious. JD has put a LOT more effort and resources In the D than the OL. He’s done a very good job with the D, but of course there is going to be a neglect somewhere as a result of max effort for the D.

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