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Play like a Jet video: Zach was better than the box score


LIJetsFan

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

This is some tough criticism for a game in the rain with the amount of pressure he was getting all day - and considering all of the good things he did.  If you just highlight the negative you'll end up coming to your conclusions for sure.  

I remember around here when Hurts threw 3 int's and cost his team the game - all we heard was it was the relentless pressure from the defense that adds up and pressure breaks pipes...That QB's couldn't be expected to see that much pressure and stay steady - even if they get a clean pocket on occasion.

You point to two or three plays all game that was poor.  And I don't disagree all QB's aren't perfect all game, even under good circumstances. 

With that said, there are a few things here.

1) People were calling this one of the worst QB performances of all times - calling for Zach's head.  The point Luke is making in this video is that this performance wasn't nearly that and in fact he did a lot of good things.  That he's growing.  

2) Yes, some of the nice throws he points to are standard for NFL starting QBs.  These are throws Zach wasn't making in the past.  and his pocket presence is night and day from where it has ever been.  I would be interested to see a "handful of outright off-target throws"  I would be very interested to see that.  Hall was one...the other your highlighting that "could have gone another yard to the outside"

3) His accuracy in this game was mostly exceptional.  Again, barring the one bad throw to Hall - and a couple more just a bit off target.  It's very serious growth from him.

It's okay to accept that.  I think it's fair to point out the bad plays you highlight but it's also okay to highlight many of the good things and not ALWAYS have to follow It with - "it was a good job but...."

Zach still has a long way to go if he's going to be a long term starter in the league but this idea that some other back-up level QB would have come in a lit it up in this circumstance is absurd.

Look, no one is calling this a Great QB performance or a special - it was an uneven performance from the NY Jets back-up QB - that under the circumstance was admirable and nowhere near deserving of the vitriol he's receiving.

 

I could not have said it better myself.  Great post.

No one is saying Zach is a starter quality QB ATM.  My point is that he is finally learning to play the position.  While I am critical of Hackett at times, credit where credit is due.  Between him and Rodgers, Zach is learning how to play.  THAT is what the video shows.    

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4 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Another great reason why they should be rolling Wilson out more.  He needs to simplify the reads

Rolling out more wouldn't make things any better.  It would just cut the field in half more often, making it more likely he'll throw picks.  He needs to be able to see the field and make a decision quicker.  Not hold the ball forever.  But we know he won't, because he's a slow processor.

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Just now, LIJetsFan said:

I could not have said it better myself.  Great post.

No one is saying Zach is a starter quality QB ATM.  My point is that he is finally learning to play the position.  While I am critical of Hackett at times, credit where credit is due.  Between him and Rodgers, Zach is learning how to play.  THAT is what the video shows.    

Only took him 29 games to finally become the # 31 ranked starting QB.  Awesome.  

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Riiiight, we'll never know, despite me just explaining to you how it wasn't a major issue for Flacco, White, or Josh Johnson.  🙄

You were the one who invented an argument based on a hypothetical premise - that Rodgers would have taken a bunch of sacks.  You don't get to turn around right after and say "well we'll never know!" now.  

Easy there buddy.  I was making a joke about how we would always find something to argue about.  Then another joke about how exactly what you were talking about not happening is the reason all this is happening.  It's funny.  To me.  But I'm a pretty weird guy.

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1 hour ago, SoFlaJets said:

No thanks Matt, I haven't had a drink since 17 days after I joined JetNation: Jimmy 1 wife of 41 years 3 kids and 15 grandchildren and Rosalie Elizabeth is our latest, born last Wednesday. Oh yea, and I am old enough to have watched Super Bowl 3 over my cousin Anthony's house when we were both in the 8th grade

Good for you (seriously)! I've tried many times to put down the cup to no avail. Congrats on the new granddaughter and enjoy them all! 

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Great!  Another youtube analyst trying to beat into peoples heads to not believe what they've seen for the last 3 years.  At this point its tough to keep talking about this ad nauseam.  He's the starter for the year.  He's not the long term answer for the Jets so this is probably it for him.  That's all we need to know.  

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I'm rooting for Zach.  

Imo, the best thing for this team is for him to reach his ceiling.  No more 40 year old brittle players, no more searching the draft, 3-4 years development just to start over again.

 

 

All Zach needs to do to shut up his critics is: produce touchdowns.

I don't need him to throw for 2-4 every week, but I do need the team to score 2-4.  

Quit kicking field goals and get the ball in the end zone.

 

It's his absolute last critique from the batch of non-believers.

Although I'm sure they'll find the next non-perfect thing to bitch about.  

 

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1 minute ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I'm rooting for Zach.  

Imo, the best thing for this team is for him to reach his ceiling.  No more 40 year old brittle players, no more searching the draft, 3-4 years development just to start over again.

 

 

All Zach needs to do to shut up his critics is: produce touchdowns.

I don't need him to throw for 2-4 every week, but I do need the team to score 2-4.  

Quit kicking field goals and get the ball in the end zone.

 

It's his absolute last critique from the batch of non-believers.

Although I'm sure they'll find the next non-perfect thing to bitch about.  

 

oh they will find new critique, trust me, they wil give the credit to someone else other than him if he does actually start throwing TD's

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37 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Only took him 29 games to finally become the # 31 ranked starting QB.  Awesome.  

Gotta say, for someone who was supposed to be a backup QB, it's pretty awesome that he's playing better than... 1 of 4 or 5 other backup QBs that have take. starter positions... Well crap

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"Better than the box score" is a phrase usually reserved for sycophants and attention seeking social media types to describe bad players to somehow justify their continued presence and /or role on a particular team even though the general consensus is that they're hot garbage. It's true.  It's science.  Look it up.   

 

 

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6 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

"Better than the box score" is a phrase usually reserved for sycophants and attention seeking social media types to describe bad players to somehow justify their continued presence and /or role on a particular team even though the general consensus is that they're hot garbage. It's true.  It's science.  Look it up.   

If he'd played more than 2-3 good/decent quarters out of 28 so far this season, all this stuff would have merit.  It doesn't.  He needs to produce or everyone needs to STFU about this idiocy.

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There were positives and negatives to make out of this game.

I'd make the argument that this was a ball placement clinic by Zach. The completion percentage doesn't reflect that, but throw after throw he threw insanely placed balls. We were getting very little separation (I suspect the slippery turf had a lot to do with this), there were a few drops, and there were a few extremely well defended balls where the Giants defense needs credit. He had about 5 or 6 balls that fell incomplete that would've been highlight real throws if the receivers caught the ball or came down with it in a contested situation (I believe they were 1/11 in contested situations this game). The only egregious throw I can remember was the miss to Breece. I was also impressed with his toughness and willingness to take a hit.

All that being said, what bothered me about Zach in this game had to do with him overall game management. He regressed in the sense that he was running backwards and rolling out too often. I get that there were some plays that he did so successfully, but there were more that resulted in sacks. I don't fault him for the 4th down play as much as I do some of the 1st and 2nd downs where he was sacked. He fumbled the ball twice in situations that he couldn't afford to fumble (or shouldn't have). I also think that he needs to get better at feeling the flow of the game. You know that the offense isn't working and really all we need to do is get into field goal range a few times to win the game; there is no reason why a QB can't make an improvised play to get the ball into his playmakers hands immediately or take the ball himself just to make sure the offense gets 5 yards on first down. The only time he really took off was in the 4th quarter (ironically our first 3rd down conversation of the game) where he ran... he should've used his legs with the intent to add yards on the ground way earlier in the game IMO. The coordinator and playcalling have a roll in this, but I just think Zach needs to find a way to stop the offense from stalling, and that much falls on the QB. 

 

If you're an optimistic fan, you're going to look at this game as a potential launch point because its unlikely your going to face all the issues every week (combination of drops/lack of contested catches, OL injuries, weather, and stellar opposing defensive), and chance if Zach is throwing with that kind of ball placement in most weeks the offense should score plenty of points to win games. If you're pessimistic, you're going to point to the box score and Zach's inability to sustain drives as your reason why its only going to go downhill from here. Don't think either can be right or wrong just yet.  

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If he'd played more than 2-3 good/decent quarters out of 28 so far this season, all this stuff would have merit.  It doesn't.  He needs to produce or everyone needs to STFU about this idiocy.

so we should take your numbers as gospel? your 2-3 decent quarters? lol, becuase you are so objective and we can really count on you for your data points, lol

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50 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

so we should take your numbers as gospel? your 2-3 decent quarters? lol, becuase you are so objective and we can really count on you for your data points, lol

I love how posting three years worth of statistics isn’t “being objective,” but posting a fanfic video from Australia’s biggest Jets homer is hard science.

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5 hours ago, SoFlaJets said:

No thanks Matt, I haven't had a drink since 17 days after I joined JetNation: Jimmy 1 wife of 41 years 3 kids and 15 grandchildren and Rosalie Elizabeth is our latest, born last Wednesday. Oh yea, and I am old enough to have watched Super Bowl 3 over my cousin Anthony's house when we were both in the 8th grade

Geez you’re old 

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43 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I love how posting three years worth of statistics isn’t “being objective,” but posting a fanfic video from Australia’s biggest Jets homer is hard science.

T0m, I have never posted any video of anyone from Australia, so not sure what you are referring to. Its not that hard for someone as smart as you to understand, you have told us how smart you are since I have been on this board. 

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22 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

This is precisely the type of video that, because of the incredible amount of Zach debate here, I watch twice.

My needle moves back and forth on Wilson pretty often.  There are times I want to throw up my hands and get someone, anyone else into the game.  Then I watch this and I wonder if Boyle, Semien or anybody could make some of those plays.  And more importantly, if they could make those throws would Lazard and Breece still drop them? This video shows the growth and improvement that I think Saleh and company were talking about over the summer.

I saw at least three throws that very, very few people in the league can make.  The one that Lazard dropped towards the sideline looked like Aaron Rodgers circa 2014.  The sidearm completions with Lawrence in his face were the kinds of passes that ESPN gushes over Mahomes making.  Wilson stood in the pocket and took a constant beating while delivering mostly accurate balls and several passes that were dropped.  It was an ugly game, guys like Breece Hall f**ked up two plays, Lazard had multiple drops, the weather was bad and guys like Billy Turnstile didn't do our passing game any favors.

It's hard to sit here and criticize the passing game but not criticize Breece Hall rushing 12 times for 17 yards, dropping an important pass and running into Garrett Wilson's route tree branch.  Oh, but the OLine didn't block well so Breece gets a pass for his 1.4 yards per rush?  Hmmm, maybe now we're getting it.  The QB and RB rely on similar things....the guys up front to give them just a little space.

This was chalked up as a bad game for Zach on this message board.  But I'm in the @KRL camp.  After a second look a lot us were wrong.  We let three or four glaringly bad plays and taking sacks overshadow what was a pretty gutsy performance in a slopfest of a game.

I'll continue to keep my mind open about Wilson.

 

Nice, objective analysis. I agree completely. In no way am I ready to say ZW is ready to be a starter in this league, but the growth and progress is clear to me. How much he can continue to grow and progress, I have no idea, but it would be great if it continued. Its too bad more "fans" can not be as objective like this.

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4 hours ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I'm rooting for Zach.  

Imo, the best thing for this team is for him to reach his ceiling.  No more 40 year old brittle players, no more searching the draft, 3-4 years development just to start over again.

 

 

All Zach needs to do to shut up his critics is: produce touchdowns.

I don't need him to throw for 2-4 every week, but I do need the team to score 2-4.  

Quit kicking field goals and get the ball in the end zone.

 

It's his absolute last critique from the batch of non-believers.

Although I'm sure they'll find the next non-perfect thing to bitch about.  

 

I'd like to see his completion percentage over 64%.  

I'd like to see a 2:1 TD:INT ratio, and a TD Pass % of over 3.5%. 

I'd like to see alot less 3 and outs in general.

I'd like to see over 220 passing yards a game.

I'd like to see a QB Rating over  90.

Just in terms of specific QB metrics.

I think all of these are pretty reasonable expectations of an NFL QB.

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38 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

This is precisely the type of video that, because of the incredible amount of Zach debate here, I watch twice.

My needle moves back and forth on Wilson pretty often.  There are times I want to throw up my hands and get someone, anyone else into the game.  Then I watch this and I wonder if Boyle, Semien or anybody could make some of those plays.  And more importantly, if they could make those throws would Lazard and Breece still drop them? This video shows the growth and improvement that I think Saleh and company were talking about over the summer.

I saw at least three throws that very, very few people in the league can make.  The one that Lazard dropped towards the sideline looked like Aaron Rodgers circa 2014.  The sidearm completions with Lawrence in his face were the kinds of passes that ESPN gushes over Mahomes making.  Wilson stood in the pocket and took a constant beating while delivering mostly accurate balls and several passes that were dropped.  It was an ugly game, guys like Breece Hall f**ked up two plays, Lazard had multiple drops, the weather was bad and guys like Billy Turnstile didn't do our passing game any favors.

It's hard to sit here and criticize the passing game but not criticize Breece Hall rushing 12 times for 17 yards, dropping an important pass and running into Garrett Wilson's route tree branch.  Oh, but the OLine didn't block well so Breece gets a pass for his 1.4 yards per rush?  Hmmm, maybe now we're getting it.  The QB and RB rely on similar things....the guys up front to give them just a little space.

This was chalked up as a bad game for Zach on this message board.  But I'm in the @KRL camp.  After a second look a lot us were wrong.  We let three or four glaringly bad plays and taking sacks overshadow what was a pretty gutsy performance in a slopfest of a game.

I'll continue to keep my mind open about Wilson.

 

The tape is beyond obvious and an objective fan willing to have his/her mind changed will

acknowledge what is there.

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25 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

T0m, I have never posted any video of anyone from Australia, so not sure what you are referring to. Its not that hard for someone as smart as you to understand, you have told us how smart you are since I have been on this board. 

I have won many intellectual awards and accolades. My home is littered with ribbons.

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4 minutes ago, KRL said:

The tape is beyond obvious and an objective fan willing to have his/her mind changed will

acknowledge what is there.

All that’s really missing from these games are a few more touchdowns.  If they could convert in the red zone some of this hate would go away.  But when you’re always settling for fgs….

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2 hours ago, football guy said:

He regressed in the sense that he was running backwards and rolling out too often. I get that there were some plays that he did so successfully, but there were more that resulted in sacks. 

I think one reason he was running where he's not supposed to is that Dexter Lawrence was blasting through the reserve OL men like s*&t through a goose. He often had nowhere else to go, no place to step up.

On that incomplete throw to Breece, there was one camera angle (from the opposite sideline, behind Wilson,) where I thought it clearly showed the ball slipping out of the QB's hand as he was throwing it. A throwing error by Zack, yes - but the elements played a role in that event, as it did in the whole game.

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