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Either way, it’s on JD and he’s got to go


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29 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

What's makes this roster so hard to turn around? You don't even need to touch the defense really. 

Seems like a rather easy job for a GM IMO. Just find an adequate QB after Rodgers.

Just find an adequate QB…isn’t so easy, right? They haven’t done it in decades. Plus fix the OL, add skill talent, keep guys under contract once their rookie deals end…

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7 minutes ago, derp said:

Just find an adequate QB…isn’t so easy, right? They haven’t done it in decades. Plus fix the OL, add skill talent, keep guys under contract once their rookie deals end…

It's not easy. That's why I'm not so quick to just dump JD. IMO it's 80 percent luck with the draft. Being in the right position, during the right class, with the right team around him. It's not as if Mac Jones, Trey Lance and Justin Fields are lighting it up. The whole class looks like crap. He swung and missed. Fine.

Keeping guys under contract when their rookie deals isn't exactly a bad problem. Isn't that a good thing?

With the defensive side being so set, I think it *should* be easier to focus on WR2 and the OL.

The mess from Mac to JD, that was a tough time for a GM.

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1 hour ago, bonkertons said:

Yes many teams deal with injuries.  Not many deal with their franchise QB going down for the year week 1.  That's just not a "next man up" type situation.  The Chiefs, Eagles, Bengals, doesn't matter.  Any of those teams would be ****ed if they lost their QB.  So yeah, it's not surprising it's a league worst offense when they have a league worst QB.  Again, that's on JD for drafting the dude in the first place, but they were never going to bury him this year.  No team is going to write off their 2nd overall pick investment 2 years in, which is what dropping him to 3rd string would have done.  

 

...and yeah the rest is just hyperbole IMO.  Just saying "good defense" and then "massive dearth of offensive talent" kinda tells the story, tbh.  It's like the people criticizing JD's draft record, calling 2020 "worst draft of all time" and then saying "2022 - good draft".  It's funny.  All the fancy superlatives for the bad, while the good is almost glossed over.  

 

But yeah, we've been here before.  Either way we essentially agree that JD is going nowhere if you're predicting early 2025.  If that were to happen it probably means Rodgers gets hurt again or just flat out sucks next year, in which case I do agree he's probably gone, regardless of how well/poorly he builds the rest of the roster this offseason.  I'm sure at that point they clean house - new GM, new coaching staff.

That gets back to the fact that they should’ve had a backup in place for a newly acquired 40 year old franchise QB. The “no team is going to bury the second pick” argument is what it is, I guess, I disagree. They talked about letting him reset, and obviously he’s not ready to play. It’s not good for him or the team. Forget the optics of burying him, he needed to be buried.

This offense is really, really bad. I don’t know what you want to call the talent level on the offense. The lack of success despite having guys like Garrett Wilson and Breece Hall who can cover for the guys around them by going out and making a play is striking to me and paints a very, very negative picture of everyone else.

Ultimately it’s a lot of excuses for why a poor product has been run out there for four years that he’s had an offseason now. He’s had a lot of time to improve this team, the process was okay and then got worse, and the results aren’t there.

I don’t know what outcome in 2024 shy of an AFCCG run or better leads to him protecting his job and I don’t think the team will be at that level. And 2024 is effectively a lame duck year for him since I believe his contract runs out in summer of 2025 but they’re not going to let him do free agency and the draft if they don’t re-up him, so it’s a big season.

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48 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

It's not easy. That's why I'm not so quick to just dump JD. IMO it's 80 percent luck with the draft. Being in the right position, during the right class, with the right team around him. It's not as if Mac Jones, Trey Lance and Justin Fields are lighting it up. The whole class looks like crap. He swung and missed. Fine.

Keeping guys under contract when their rookie deals isn't exactly a bad problem. Isn't that a good thing?

With the defensive side being so set, I think it *should* be easier to focus on WR2 and the OL.

The mess from Mac to JD, that was a tough time for a GM.

Yeah, but man that position player class was unbelievable and there were options to trade down. Could’ve moved down and set the team up really nicely. The argument is you take a quarterback when you’re up there but that 2-5 range has been very hit or miss and you don’t find success doing things just because that’s what you’re supposed to do in that situation.

It’s a great thing in that there are guys to bring back. The problem is that those guys aren’t cheap any more, it’s probably not feasible to keep everyone, and the team either bad or not drafting that high any more to back fill with young talent. And drafts have been really hit or miss, especially outside the top ten.

It should be easier to focus on those spots but it should’ve been easier to focus on those spots last offseason too.

I think Douglas had a really easy job to start because he was given time to reset with bad rosters and really low expectations. But that’s just me.

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55 minutes ago, derp said:

Yeah, but man that position player class was unbelievable and there were options to trade down. Could’ve moved down and set the team up really nicely. The argument is you take a quarterback when you’re up there but that 2-5 range has been very hit or miss and you don’t find success doing things just because that’s what you’re supposed to do in that situation.

It’s a great thing in that there are guys to bring back. The problem is that those guys aren’t cheap any more, it’s probably not feasible to keep everyone, and the team either bad or not drafting that high any more to back fill with young talent. And drafts have been really hit or miss, especially outside the top ten.

It should be easier to focus on those spots but it should’ve been easier to focus on those spots last offseason too.

I think Douglas had a really easy job to start because he was given time to reset with bad rosters and really low expectations. But that’s just me.

Shoulda coulda woulda. We needed a QB. Been searching for over a decade right??? They took one. More often then not, it's a swing you take. They were in the mindset of - "we tore it down, let's start from the ground up with a young qb and let him take his lumps year 1 with the rest of the team, defense included"

Didn't work out. Whatever.

I think it SHOULD help that it's so blatant the focus needs to be on offense. 

He'll get another year. We'll see how it goes.

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Let's simplify things and start talking about what failed to happen after the Rodgers deal was made.

Utter buffoonery and incompetence on so many levels:

1.  If this was designed to be a "learning year" for Zach, why was he even the #2 in the first place?  You forgo sensible backup options like Dobbs, Minshew, Bridgewater.  By all accounts you don't even consider them.

2.  Your 39-year old QB tears his Achilles, and at that point, you don't sign a viable backup when the world knows Tim Boyle is not an option.  With 5+ QBs seemingly dropping every week, the thought doesn't occur to you that your QB who's had rotator cuff tears on both shoulders and jacked up his own meniscus untouched in preseason a year ago might get injured during a game?

3.  You sit on your hands for 5+ weeks or whatever it was to even add a QB to the practice squad.  It's Siemian, who has played as many games as ZW and thrown 2x the number of TD passes, and instead of elevating him you keep him buried in the practice squad where he can't help you on gameday.

4.  Ok so you had no idea Josh Dobbs was competent before the season.  Now you've seen the sort of grit and toughness and playmaking ability he has shown, even on a down bad Cardinals team with an awful defense where he is having to play in negative game scripts every week.  And you still pass on him and tell yourself you're good with Zach Wilson!? 

At that point, after Minnesota makes the sensible move and trades for him, Josh Dobbs leads them to nothing but victories, even without the #1 WR in the entire league.  TJ Hockenson comes alive, catching 25 passes for 175 yards last week in Dobbs' 1st start.

5.  Your defense has regressed to the mean on takeaways and you find yourself at 4-5 and you still refuse to even consider activating Siemian.  You'd rather die, and allow the team to die on the vine, with Zach Wilson than live with anybody else.

6.  You're resting your hopes on a 40-year old QB to make an unprecedented recovery in some kind of medical miracle, while discounting the strong possibility that even if he is somehow able to return:

-- you can't count on him to be anything close to what he was pre-injury

-- the lack of mobility and recovery time might make him more susceptible to re-injury, in which case you are screwed for 2024 as well, especially on the MaimLife turf which the stubborn owner refuses to change to natural grass despite being a multi-Billionaire

7.  You could have packaged Zach Wilson in any deal for Dobbs, thus killing 3 potential birds with one stone.

    a.  Solve your QB position for the remainder of 2023, without having to push a 40y old QB to return 3 months after an Achilles tear

    b.  End the excruciating ZW experiment once and for all

    c.  Who knows, maybe Josh Dobbs in extended action shows he can be the long term answer, and when Rodgers retires, you are fine.  With this defense, you don't need Dan Marino pulling the trigger.  You don't need to score 30+ a game with this defense.

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10 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Shoulda coulda woulda. We needed a QB. Been searching for over a decade right??? They took one. More often then not, it's a swing you take. They were in the mindset of - "we tore it down, let's start from the ground up with a young qb and let him take his lumps year 1 with the rest of the team, defense included"

Didn't work out. Whatever.

I think it SHOULD help that it's so blatant the focus needs to be on offense. 

He'll get another year. We'll see how it goes.

I felt the same way as I stated at the time. Didn’t think there was a prospect worthy of the pick, didn’t think there was an infrastructure in place to support him, didn’t think he was ready to play right away. Folks can keep defending it because it’s what you do but I think it was bad process with a bad result. So no amount of “that’s what you do when drafting that high” - especially when there’s a rough track record of that - will make me feel it was the right move. Not a hindsight thing for me.

That offseason there were specifically multiple guys who’d played adequately for SF in the same system. As a starter, a bridge, whatever - would’ve been easy to bring someone in. Instead, just a scramble for Flacco.

It should’ve been blatant the focus needed to be the offense already. He’s just going to scramble this offseason - if he gets this offseason to do so.

Ultimately he opened up a little window with Sauce, GW, and Hall but he’s not going to be able to take advantage of it.

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On 11/13/2023 at 12:42 PM, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

This is a fair point and actually the most compelling argument for keeping Joe Douglas in place.

Compared to his predecessors Idzik and Dunkin Coffee man, JD is a HOF GM.

Their records don’t s show that.  And W’s and L’s are actually the job. 

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2 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Let's simplify things and start talking about what failed to happen after the Rodgers deal was made.

Utter buffoonery and incompetence on so many levels:

1.  If this was designed to be a "learning year" for Zach, why was he even the #2 in the first place?  You forgo sensible backup options like Dobbs, Minshew, Bridgewater.  By all accounts you don't even consider them.

2.  Your 39-year old QB tears his Achilles, and at that point, you don't sign a viable backup when the world knows Tim Boyle is not an option.  With 5+ QBs seemingly dropping every week, the thought doesn't occur to you that your QB who's had rotator cuff tears on both shoulders and jacked up his own meniscus untouched in preseason a year ago might get injured during a game?

3.  You sit on your hands for 5+ weeks or whatever it was to even add a QB to the practice squad.  It's Siemian, who has played as many games as ZW and thrown 2x the number of TD passes, and instead of elevating him you keep him buried in the practice squad where he can't help you on gameday.

4.  Ok so you had no idea Josh Dobbs was competent before the season.  Now you've seen the sort of grit and toughness and playmaking ability he has shown, even on a down bad Cardinals team with an awful defense where he is having to play in negative game scripts every week.  And you still pass on him and tell yourself you're good with Zach Wilson!? 

At that point, after Minnesota makes the sensible move and trades for him, Josh Dobbs leads them to nothing but victories, even without the #1 WR in the entire league.  TJ Hockenson comes alive, catching 25 passes for 175 yards last week in Dobbs' 1st start.

5.  Your defense has regressed to the mean on takeaways and you find yourself at 4-5 and you still refuse to even consider activating Siemian.  You'd rather die, and allow the team to die on the vine, with Zach Wilson than live with anybody else.

6.  You're resting your hopes on a 40-year old QB to make an unprecedented recovery in some kind of medical miracle, while discounting the strong possibility that even if he is somehow able to return:

-- you can't count on him to be anything close to what he was pre-injury

-- the lack of mobility and recovery time might make him more susceptible to re-injury, in which case you are screwed for 2024 as well, especially on the MaimLife turf which the stubborn owner refuses to change to natural grass despite being a multi-Billionaire

7.  You could have packaged Zach Wilson in any deal for Dobbs, thus killing 3 potential birds with one stone.

    a.  Solve your QB position for the remainder of 2023, without having to push a 40y old QB to return 3 months after an Achilles tear

    b.  End the excruciating ZW experiment once and for all

    c.  Who knows, maybe Josh Dobbs in extended action shows he can be the long term answer, and when Rodgers retires, you are fine.  With this defense, you don't need Dan Marino pulling the trigger.  You don't need to score 30+ a game with this defense.

This is a very low by post to say Zach sucks. 
 

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2 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Shoulda coulda woulda. We needed a QB. Been searching for over a decade right??? They took one. More often then not, it's a swing you take. They were in the mindset of - "we tore it down, let's start from the ground up with a young qb and let him take his lumps year 1 with the rest of the team, defense included"

Didn't work out. Whatever.

I think it SHOULD help that it's so blatant the focus needs to be on offense. 

He'll get another year. We'll see how it goes.

Taking the Zach sucks out of it for a second, it's smarter to build a program first, then draft the rookie qb. The jets did it the other way around 

That was essentially the mistake they made with darnold 

Offensive line could have had Sewell or slater then draft another QB once the line is solid 

You build an offense then draft the Mahomes or hurts you don't draft the qb and expect him to build a program by himself 

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4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Taking the Zach sucks out of it for a second, it's smarter to build a program first, then draft the rookie qb. The jets did it the other way around 

That was essentially the mistake they made with darnold 

Offensive line could have had Sewell or slater then draft another QB once the line is solid 

You build an offense then draft the Mahomes or hurts you don't draft the qb and expect him to build a program by himself 

You take a potential FQB any chance you get.  You don't wait until you feel the time is right.  Worst case, let the guy sit a year or 2.

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41 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

You take a potential FQB any chance you get.  You don't wait until you feel the time is right.  Worst case, let the guy sit a year or 2.

That's the thing if you're picking at 2 you don't have the luxury of letting this player sit a year or two

How do other teams do it? Sometimes they get burrow at 1 overall but most of the time they find a Lamar or a hurts and put him on an offense where he has a line at least 

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3 hours ago, derp said:

I felt the same way as I stated at the time. Didn’t think there was a prospect worthy of the pick, didn’t think there was an infrastructure in place to support him, didn’t think he was ready to play right away. Folks can keep defending it because it’s what you do but I think it was bad process with a bad result. So no amount of “that’s what you do when drafting that high” - especially when there’s a rough track record of that - will make me feel it was the right move. Not a hindsight thing for me.

That offseason there were specifically multiple guys who’d played adequately for SF in the same system. As a starter, a bridge, whatever - would’ve been easy to bring someone in. Instead, just a scramble for Flacco.

It should’ve been blatant the focus needed to be the offense already. He’s just going to scramble this offseason - if he gets this offseason to do so.

Ultimately he opened up a little window with Sauce, GW, and Hall but he’s not going to be able to take advantage of it.

You may not have thought there was a worthy pick but they did. And a lot of others did so as well. Including SF. Especially considering you’re at that spot and don’t need to trade up to get one. 

I’m not saying the guy is the best Gm there is but to fire him and say he’s been terrible outside a couple of picks seems overly drastic imo. Whatevs. 

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3 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

You may not have thought there was a worthy pick but they did. And a lot of others did so as well. Including SF. Especially considering you’re at that spot and don’t need to trade up to get one. 

I’m not saying the guy is the best Gm there is but to fire him and say he’s been terrible outside a couple of picks seems overly drastic imo. Whatevs. 

I said his draft record is wildly overrated and he’s made plenty of bad picks besides Wilson. That is not the same as saying he’s been terrible outside of a couple of picks.

I don’t think he definitively deserves to be fired this year, you could argue either way. I do think there’s almost no chance the team will do enough in 2024 to make it worth extending him. That being the case, I don’t think delaying the inevitable will turn out to be prudent, but we’ll see.

Regarding the quarterback, I don’t care about what other teams thought in that class - everyone but Lawrence had major warts - or avoiding trading up. The track record up there is horrific. Teams that have built their team then traded up have done well, better than teams sticking and picking with bad rosters. Mahomes, Allen, Jackson all fit into that category. It’s a better process, and the Jets could’ve compiled a ton of draft capital and built a good team then had the assets they needed to go get a guy.

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7 minutes ago, bitonti said:

That's the thing if you're picking at 2 you don't have the luxury of letting this player sit a year or two

How do other teams do it? Sometimes they get burrow at 1 overall but most of the time they find a Lamar or a hurts and put him on an offense where he has a line at least 

I think other teams draft FQBs whenever they get a chance.  Then they spend their next few drafts on offensive players to support that QB.

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39 minutes ago, hawk said:

Simple question....

When have you ever seen a roster as talented as this roster?

Roster, not just QB, which the regime went all out to improve.

The offensive side of the ball still looks pretty rough. I think it's fair to attribute a lot of that to injury although - not all of it.

I personally think it would be a mistake to move on from JD without at least seeing all his highly drafted linemen on the field together with the HOF QB he traded for in a game.

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guy who runs around defending Zach Wilson on here thinks Aaron Rodgers, Breece Hall, AVT, Becton, Tippman & Conklin aren't good. 
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I like all the players listed .. that being said . Breece has averaged 2.something a carry for the past three weeks, Conklin needs to do more, Tippmann looks like he will be good if he can stay in the lineup, AVT .. best ability is availability.. so far not so good in that regard. So yeah .. I'd say my assessment is spot on.

Feel free to retort ...

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

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7 hours ago, derp said:

That gets back to the fact that they should’ve had a backup in place for a newly acquired 40 year old franchise QB. The “no team is going to bury the second pick” argument is what it is, I guess, I disagree. They talked about letting him reset, and obviously he’s not ready to play. It’s not good for him or the team. Forget the optics of burying him, he needed to be buried.

This offense is really, really bad. I don’t know what you want to call the talent level on the offense. The lack of success despite having guys like Garrett Wilson and Breece Hall who can cover for the guys around them by going out and making a play is striking to me and paints a very, very negative picture of everyone else.

Ultimately it’s a lot of excuses for why a poor product has been run out there for four years that he’s had an offseason now. He’s had a lot of time to improve this team, the process was okay and then got worse, and the results aren’t there.

I don’t know what outcome in 2024 shy of an AFCCG run or better leads to him protecting his job and I don’t think the team will be at that level. And 2024 is effectively a lame duck year for him since I believe his contract runs out in summer of 2025 but they’re not going to let him do free agency and the draft if they don’t re-up him, so it’s a big season.

Zach has a 9.5 million cap hit in 2023 and $11 in 2024.  Do you think there is at least a possibility that JD's owner told him he didnt want to pay zach that money to play elsehwere?

On top of that we have an OC who does not even remotely fit this QB, he was hand picked to run a particular offense for a particular player who got hurt.  Really bad turn of events but Im not sure how JD can make hackett better, he cant.  He can just fire him in 2025 when rogers retires.

 

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21 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

guy who runs around defending Zach Wilson on here thinks Aaron Rodgers, Breece Hall, AVT, Becton, Tippman & Conklin aren't good. 

Meme Reaction GIF

I think you make a good argument for why JD should not be criticized as much as he is by this fan base, he has brought in good players - he has also made mistakes, but outside of QB, the good has far outweighed the bad.

The problem is that 1. QB is the most important position to not miss on, and 2. if the coaches arent putting his players into position to suceed, he needs to do something about that.

Hacketts play calling has no imagination and his play design does not fit Zach;s style.  Its a big problem and unless rogers is ok with it, hackett isnt getting fired.

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1 minute ago, BCJet said:

I think you make a good argument for why JD should not be criticized as much as he is by this fan base, he has brought in good players - he has also made mistakes, but outside of QB, the good has far outweighed the bad.

The problem is that 1. QB is the most important position to not miss on, and 2. if the coaches arent putting his players into position to suceed, he needs to do something about that.

Hacketts play calling has no imagination and his play design does not fit Zach;s style.  Its a big problem and unless rogers is ok with it, hackett isnt getting fired.

yea I mean if he hit on Wilson the Jets are really good and no one is calling for his head. He made a big move to fix it, then that backfired - and has a lot of baggage attached to it.

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17 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Not sure you can argue the offensive side of the ball is "talented" outside GW

Hall

Tippman - its early but looks good so far.

AVT - has been very good when he is on the field. next year we should have a nice middle OL.

Conklin- has been good.

i guess we will see in the coming weeks if Izzy and Gibson are any good.

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15 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Zach has a 9.5 million cap hit in 2023 and $11 in 2024.  Do you think there is at least a possibility that JD's owner told him he didnt want to pay zach that money to play elsehwere?

On top of that we have an OC who does not even remotely fit this QB, he was hand picked to run a particular offense for a particular player who got hurt.  Really bad turn of events but Im not sure how JD can make hackett better, he cant.  He can just fire him in 2025 when rogers retires.

 

My suggestion was that they should’ve had a different backup quarterback and Wilson should’ve been QB3 who didn’t see the field. Thus, reset. If you’re trying to build a football team the sunk cost can’t factor into decision making. This team would be more competitive with a different backup quarterback and guys were available. Leaving Wilson as QB2 was negligent and we see the results every week.

If you’re arguing that Wilson doesn’t fit what Hackett’s offense does, that seems to align with the idea that Wilson shouldn’t have been the backup quarterback this year - no?

And Douglas absolutely played a hand in Hackett’s hiring. I don’t think it’s all on him but he’s not blameless there.

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