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It’s Saleh. He’s Holding the Bloody Knife


Ulrich

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1 hour ago, Ulrich said:

Had Joe D been wiser he’d of hired, let’s say, an offensive version of Saleh (since he clearly liked his demeanor). A promising leader of men who’d construct a kick-ass offense. Keeping his fingers crossed his hire would add a capable DC.

But he went with Saleh whose presence has been kryptonite to assembling even a serviceable offense.

Then right now the Jets would probably still have an offense completely neutered by the presence of Zach Wilson, but with a much less effective defense.

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

and traded for a $50M QB.

And I really didnt do a good job of showing how much emphasis they put into offense since Saleh got here.  His first 4 picks on his very first ever draft went QB, OL, WR, RB.    Then next draft he went, CB, WR, DE, RB, TE, T.  And then this draft he went, DE, OL, OL, RB.

3 picks on D in the money rounds. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

A bit misleading. Only 7 of those 23 didn't play, and all but 8 of them had full participation in practice.

Among them are a FB, a backup LB, a backup TE, a RB averaging 3 ypc, a day-3 pick rookie LB, a 32 yr old safety, and a corner.

image.png

The Jets have obvious problems aside from injuries, but that's not the same as being down to a 4th string center mid-game playing next to a 3rd string RG who's playing next to the 3rd string RT; let alone missing the team's top 4 corners when playing the NFC champs, and more.

 

17 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I'm sure you know you didn't address the question. 

https://www.the33rdteam.com/category/rankings/2023-nfl-midseason-offensive-line-rankings/
 

as of Nov 2 we are the 17 ranked o line with many teams below us, and at least 4 of those teams will make the playoffs.

My point is o line injuries is no excuse for the 2023 NYJ.

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1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm still a big fan of JD but let's not forget that he hired Saleh.  I still think the jury is out on Saleh, btw, but I'm definitely not yet sold on him as being the guy who can lead us out of the abyss.

I'm not sure either.  One thing I consider is that excellent QB's tend to make the OC and HC look very good.  Very bad QB's tend to make HC's and OC's look bad.  Even OC's and HC's that have gotten excellent results up to the time they had to work with a bad QB.

You cant stress enough how much the QB matters in this NFL day and age.  It is just about everything. 

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14 minutes ago, oatmeal said:

 

https://www.the33rdteam.com/category/rankings/2023-nfl-midseason-offensive-line-rankings/
 

as of Nov 2 we are the 17 ranked o line with many teams below us, and at least 4 of those teams will make the playoffs.

My point is o line injuries is no excuse for the 2023 NYJ.

I was going back and forth with a guy who insists the GM has ignored the OL. My response was that we have addressed the OL and the problem with it this year has been injuries. You then claimed injuries were not an excuse because 31 other teams dealt with injuries. 

The Jets have had a significant number of injuries specifically on the o-line, which is why injuries is the problem with it both this year and last year. I asked you to show another team that has had their 4th string C, G & T playing this year which you have not done.

You gave a team that has had a bunch of injuries and then say your point is oline injuries is no excuse for the 2023 NYJ which doesn't even speak to the original conversation.

In short, WTF are you even talking about?

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18 minutes ago, oatmeal said:

 

https://www.the33rdteam.com/category/rankings/2023-nfl-midseason-offensive-line-rankings/
 

as of Nov 2 we are the 17 ranked o line with many teams below us, and at least 4 of those teams will make the playoffs.

My point is o line injuries is no excuse for the 2023 NYJ.

No excuse for the 2023 NYJ, but always an excuse for ZW!

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12 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I was going back and forth with a guy who insists the GM has ignored the OL. My response was that we have addressed the OL and the problem with it this year has been injuries. You then claimed injuries were not an excuse because 31 other teams dealt with injuries. 

The Jets have had a significant number of injuries specifically on the o-line, which is why injuries is the problem with it both this year and last year. I asked you to show another team that has had their 4th string C, G & T playing this year which you have not done.

You gave a team that has had a bunch of injuries and then say your point is oline injuries is no excuse for the 2023 NYJ which doesn't even speak to the original conversation.

In short, WTF are you even talking about?

Becton, AVT, Tippman all drafted by JD.  Becton and AVT were/are effective when they have been on the field but both have missed significant time.  That was a killer. 

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1 hour ago, JiF said:

And I really didnt do a good job of showing how much emphasis they put into offense since Saleh got here.  His first 4 picks on his very first ever draft went QB, OL, WR, RB.    Then next draft he went, CB, WR, DE, RB, TE, T.  And then this draft he went, DE, OL, OL, RB.

3 picks on D in the money rounds. 

 

 

It wasn't. OL, WR, S and DE

2020 1 Mekhi Becton 11 T 2023 0 0 1 5 24 0 0 0 0 0     0     0     Louisville
2020 2 Denzel Mims 59 WR 2022 0 0 1 5 30 0 0 0 0 0     0 42 676 0     Baylor
2020 3 Ashtyn Davis 68 S 2023 0 0 1 6 46 0 0 0 0 0 2 6 0     0 4 0.5 California
2020 3 Jabari Zuniga 79 DE 2022 0 0 0 1 12 0 0 0 0 0     0     0   1.0 Florida
2020 4 La'Mical Perine 120 RB 2023 0 0 0 2 15 0 0 0 0 0 73 264 2 11 63 0     Florida
2020 4 James Morgan 125 QB   0 0 0                               Florida International
2020 4 Cameron Clark 129 T   0 0 0                               Charlotte
2020 5 Bryce Hall 158 CB 2023 0 0 2 7 37 0 0 0 0 0     0     0 2 0.5 Virginia
2020 6

Braden Mann

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I get how everyone wants to be angry and assess blame and have heads roll.  I preach patience.  Not in tone or demeanor, I just think you let these mooks learn on the job.  This is the 1st clean slate sh*t we have had since 2015.  We are 3 years in and this team SHOULD be competing.  Hell they are competing despite shooting themselves in the foot at every opportunity.  

Since Woody took over there have been a bunch of BS, half assed attempts at running the team.  Tried to get BB to stay under Tubby's thumb which he ran out on.  Groh stayed one year with that fat **** as de facto GM.  Then Herm took over.  It seemed like a clean slate, but he kept Sutton.  They rode their 4 first rounders as far as they could, and then did a clean slate start over in 2006.  Even then Tannebaum was kind of a promotion from within and they kept Sutton and promoted him to DC, though we assume it was Mangini's show.  After the horny hayseed debacle in 2008, they hired Rex, but forced him to keep Baby Schott and he also kept Sutton around though moved back to LBs.  They fired Tannenbaum and Sutton finally left, but Idzik was forced to keep Rex though they swapped offensive staffs.  In 2015 they started over, but I believe that they hired Bowles before Maccagnan, though I think that is not strictly confirmed.  When they hired Gase the forced Gregg Williams on him and then forced Joe Vitt on Williams. 

The record is still demoralizing, but the team is better.  That is despite losing the starting QB.  The team has zero O and is barely below .500.  They've lost some games they should have won and won some games they should have lost.  The team does not seem to quit, even when it looks like they should.  I am not one for moral victories, but they are not out of it and that is with Zach playing like Zach.  Not sure how that gets you guys to Hackett being the worst OC in history, but we will see where this ends up.  I look at Rodgers as a built in excuse. If they win great, if they don't, run it back with Rodgers next year.  If they don't win then either heads should and will roll.  Until then just hold on and enjoy the ride.  Or don't, I'm not enjoying it, but I understand it.

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I thought Saleh was over his head from day 1.  Never understood why you bring in a DC to evaluate Darnold or draft and develope a QB.  There is so much more that could have been done with the 2 pick than take Zach.  They could have traded Darnold and the 2 pick and really had a different look to the entire team right now.

That's all in the rear view mirror.  Saleh kind of proved to me he didn't have it when the Jets went into free fall and he lost the locker room last year.

Here we are today at 4 and 5.  The playoffs, even the division is still open to us.  If Saleh can get the team to the playoffs I would gladly eat crown.  If he gets the team to 9 and 8 or even 8 and 9 I'm probably going to be okay with running it back.   If the team collapses down the stretch like last year with a healthy Becton and Hall and this D he should be out the door.  

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Can't argue with the results.  They've been bad.  But the idea that JD and Saleh haven't invested in the offense is kind of ridiculous.  The fact of the matter is that they've simply been BETTER with their investments on Defense than on Offense.  The Jets have been drafting OL and WRs for years, and signing them in FA.  They drafted a QB #2 overall and traded for a future HOF QB.  They seem to draft a RB every single year (Michael Carter, Breece, Izzy). They signed two veteran TEs and drafted Ruckert.

Just because guys like Jermaine Johnson, Sauce, Huff, Tony Adams, etc. have turned out to be good and Zach, Denzel Mims, Michael Carter, Elijah Moore, etc. haven't lived up to expectations should not be confused with ignoring the problems on offense.  It should be an indictment of the scouting of offensive players. 

The Jets have thrown a LOT of darts, particularly on the OL.  JD has signed McGovern, George Fant, Morgan Moses, Duane Brown, etc.  Drafted Mekhi Becton, AVT, Max Mitchell, Tippmann, Carter Warren.   Is the OLine good?  Is it consistent?  How many longterm pieces have been acquired for the OL?

Maybe the most revealing question is what are this team's biggest needs going into next year's Draft after using 3 of its Top 4 picks (2023), 4 of its Top 6 picks (2022), and all of its Top 4 picks (2021) on offensive players?  If the answer is that the Jets should be using their first couple 2024 draft picks on offense again then the Front Office needs to look itself in the mirror and ask what the hell they're doing wrong in scouting these guys.

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i like Saleh and having a DC as HC. if you get a good QB then the offense will take care of itself. im not sure how many teams with a good QB are not good.

Saleh is a defensive guru. and he is doing his job by making the defense great. now we just need a good QB to take care of that side.

its kinda like Rex. he had the defense playing great but because Sanchez wasnt good he went through 3 OCs to try to fix him and ultimately failed.

do you guys really think defensive minded HCs really get involved with the offense? Belichick is the greatest HC of all time, but thats because he had the best QB of all time. look at him now without Brady. his offense sucks, but he defense is still good. 

its not that simple to just hired a OC as HC and think they will be good.

look how Mcvey is doing with a struggling Stafford. Salehs buddy in GB without Rodgers. we all talked about Daboll and he struggled before he lost Jones and Barkley. 

Frank Riech who alot of you wanted this year to replace Saleh is 1-8. 

its doesnt matter if your HC is a OC or a DC when you have a bad QB. your HC is going to suck. 

 

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The biggest knock on saleh, imo, is that he knows very little about offense.  I don’t think he’s realized that his defense would look much better if the offense was putting up points.  Instead he wants a ball control offense but without the benefit of a consistent run game.  And maybe it’s Hackett who needs to be unleashed.  Maybe saleh is telling Hackett to keep the pace slow.  This seems to only work when the offense is multidimensional.  They need to pass and run equally well.

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10 minutes ago, Larz said:

Hackett is brutal without Rodgers calling  everything at the LOS lol

That's exactly it.  We're seeing why Denver fired him.  Hackett is an empty headset.  He's as valuable as the Colts offensive coordinator during the Peyton Manning years.... you know....that OC guy.... what's his name?  Yeah, nobody remembers.

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3 minutes ago, doitny said:

i like Saleh and having a DC as HC. if you get a good QB then the offense will take care of itself. im not sure how many teams with a good QB are not good.

Saleh is a defensive guru. and he is doing his job by making the defense great. now we just need a good QB to take care of that side.

its kinda like Rex. he had the defense playing great but because Sanchez wasnt good he went through 3 OCs to try to fix him and ultimately failed.

do you guys really think defensive minded HCs really get involved with the offense? Belichick is the greatest HC of all time, but thats because he had the best QB of all time. look at him now without Brady. his offense sucks, but he defense is still good. 

its not that simple to just hired a OC as HC and think they will be good.

look how Mcvey is doing with a struggling Stafford. Salehs buddy in GB without Rodgers. we all talked about Daboll and he struggled before he lost Jones and Barkley. 

Frank Riech who alot of you wanted this year to replace Saleh is 1-8. 

its doesnt matter if your HC is a OC or a DC when you have a bad QB. your HC is going to suck. 

 

Great coaches know both sides of the ball.  Look at parcells.  He took away play calling from Weiss and henning and did it himself.  Shula, who had one of those real ground and pound teams with the 72-73doltfins completely revamped the offense when Marino became qb.  Bill walsh had an excellent defense in San Fran.

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14 minutes ago, doitny said:

i like Saleh and having a DC as HC. if you get a good QB then the offense will take care of itself. im not sure how many teams with a good QB are not good.

Saleh is a defensive guru. and he is doing his job by making the defense great. now we just need a good QB to take care of that side.

its kinda like Rex. he had the defense playing great but because Sanchez wasnt good he went through 3 OCs to try to fix him and ultimately failed.

do you guys really think defensive minded HCs really get involved with the offense? Belichick is the greatest HC of all time, but thats because he had the best QB of all time. look at him now without Brady. his offense sucks, but he defense is still good. 

its not that simple to just hired a OC as HC and think they will be good.

look how Mcvey is doing with a struggling Stafford. Salehs buddy in GB without Rodgers. we all talked about Daboll and he struggled before he lost Jones and Barkley. 

Frank Riech who alot of you wanted this year to replace Saleh is 1-8. 

its doesnt matter if your HC is a OC or a DC when you have a bad QB. your HC is going to suck. 

 

Not at all like Rex.  Rex took teams to back to back AFC finals with less defensive talent and a higher ranked D and a great OL and running game a combination of trades, good FA's and draft picks.    Rex Ryan's Jets had a 4 and 2 playoff record.  

That's with a bust 1st round QB. 

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5 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Not at all like Rex.  Rex took teams to back to back AFC finals with less defensive talent and a higher ranked D and a great OL and running game a combination of trades, good FA's and draft picks.    Rex Ryan's Jets had a 4 and 2 playoff record.  

That's with a bust 1st round QB. 

Rex had a great line for ground and pound.  Both of them think they can win with their defense tho. 

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3 hours ago, carlito1171 said:

I'm done with Saleh(even in knowing he'll be back in 24').....

Woody has an archetype for his HC hires......A DC from a well-performing defense that won't cost him much but will be a "leader of men"

The only Offensive hire(as disastrous as it was) came when Woody was across the pond and Chris was doing most of the leg work.....

The Johnsons love living in insanity....all these years picking the same archetype of coach yet expecting(or just trying to sell us) better results.....

The whole "race to 20" comment from Saleh is at the top of a list of things that irk me about him.....like most of the DCs we've hired at HC....they're egotistical about "their defense" and think we can win by not turning the ball over and doing just enough on offense......

It's insane to think that wins games in 2023 where the rules are skewed to generate offense

Some exceptions, none the change your argument; Mangini, who put his neck out there with the Pats video mess and was promised he would not be fired if he went along with the Favre thing. Of course, he was fired. Grant you he was bad with people but set jets up to be known as a franchise that will undercut serious coaches. Sent the message; Jets organization and ownership will sell you out in a heartbeat when they flit o their next dumb idea. Gase was hired by the idiot brother.

And recall the strange case of Doug Marrone, on OL guy,  who had opted out of his Bills contract and had done everything but sign the Jets' contract when Richie Rich Johnson got cold feet because Manish Mehta wrote a story or 2 that at Syracuse Marrone on occasion ...yelled at people. Having been around high school and college football coaches, the idea that such a thing was a bridge too far and disqualifying is between lunacy and idiocy. 

Put it this way; have a young man living under my roof who after playing D2  was this fall  a HS assistant. He comes home from practices and games with no voice. YELLING? Is this about football or making exquisite pastries or dollhouses or some other pussie nonsense? 

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20 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

That's exactly it.  We're seeing why Denver fired him.  Hackett is an empty headset.  He's as valuable as the Colts offensive coordinator during the Peyton Manning years.... you know....that OC guy.... what's his name?  Yeah, nobody remembers.

Not gonna say Hackett isn't a problem. But the HC wants a minimal risk, run-oriented offense, and the QB is not NFL quality. Not sure you can expect much better than this under any OC with those parameters. 

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13 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Some exceptions, none the change your argument; Mangini, who put his neck out there with the Pats video mess and was promised he would not be fired if he went along with the Favre thing. Of course, he was fired. Grant you he was bad with people but set jets up to be known as a franchise that will undercut serious coaches. Sent the message; Jets organization and ownership will sell you out in a heartbeat when they flit o their next dumb idea. Gase was hired by the idiot brother.

And recall the strange case of Doug Marrone, on OL guy,  who had opted out of his Bills contract and had done everything but sign the Jets' contract when Richie Rich Johnson got cold feet because Manish Mehta wrote a story or 2 that at Syracuse Marrone on occasion ...yelled at people. Having been around high school and college football coaches, the idea that such a thing was a bridge too far and disqualifying is between lunacy and idiocy. 

Put it this way; have a young man living under my roof who after playing D2  was this fall  a HS assistant. He comes home from practices and games with no voice. YELLING? Is this about football or making exquisite pastries or dollhouses or some other pussie nonsense? 

If there is one thing that I think when looking at Doug Marrone's post-Bills career it's DAMN YOU MANISH MEHTA!  I guess we would have gotten Trevor Lawrence, so there's that.You 

11 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Not gonna say Hackett isn't a problem. But the HC wants a minimal risk, run-oriented offense, and the QB is not NFL quality. Not sure you can expect much better than this under any OC with those parameters. 

You think that is what the HC wants? Last year to start the season Flacco had 59, 44 and 52 passing attempts.  In his start against Miami in 2021 he threw for 291 on 39 attempts.  Mike White threw for 28, 57, 44 (Flacco added another 3) and 46 attempts last season and 32, 45, and 44 in 2021.  He got hurt against the Colts and threw 11 with Josh Johnson coming in and throwing another 41.  Meanwhile Zach Wilson averages like 31 attempts per start.  There are only a few reasons this can be.  1.  They don't trust him and he can't run the O.  2.  He is killing pass plays for runs.  3.  His failures mean the team gets no first downs and therefore have less opportunities.  (No idea if this is true.  Has anybody checked how many offensive plays per game for Zach vs. our other QBs?)  4.  I am sure the most popular choice around here is a vast conspiracy to keep Zach down.

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