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Zach should get another shot


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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He didn't "win" 2 games.  It's a team sport.

The only good performance by Zach was 2 quarters of the KC game.  The other 18 quarters he was garbage.

He can't play.

How do you think Brock Purdy would've performed in this offense?

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21 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

If those guys were on the jets they would have flashed and won more here as well.  Good qbs have tools but also, they have good field vision and pocket sense.  You’ve just listed at least 2 HOF qbs as examples of qbs with tools who succeed.  But there’s guys like Kirk cousins and Prescott and stroud who also have tools but accuracy, pocket sense and good mechanics and that’s the difference.  ZW has none of those.  

Kirk cousins first few years were with Kyle shannahan and Sean Mcvay. Dak was thrust into action with one of the best o lines in recent history and an elite running game.  Stroud is currently performing in an offense with plenty of talent. Your examples are of players that were put in favorable situations. Look, I’m not saying Zach is good. He isn’t. I’m not arguing that. All I am saying is that the guys who pan out generally are put in position to succeed. 

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Just now, extmenace said:

 All I am saying is that the guys who pan out generally are out in position to succeed. 

Justin Herbert played behind the # 32-ranked OL his rookie year.  He still set the rookie TD record.

Good/very good/elite QB play can only be delayed, not denied.  Traits/DNA matter more than circumstances.  The data backs it up.  

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

To answer your question though, @TuscanyTile2, I think Purdy would have done well here, especially in the MLF system.  He's a quick processor who gets rid of the ball quickly.  That's a skillset that is useful anywhere.

I respect that you gave that answer, even though I disagree with it.  I think he would've stunk here.  

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Why not?  You seem to think plugging in any old QB to the 49ers offense would make him perform well, no?

If a QB can't perform well with that SF supporting cast (which includes Kyle Shanahan, who I think is one of the best offensive HC's in the sport) then he probably just can't play. 

Trey Lance has had that opportunity (and was shipped out).  Brock Purdy has had that opportunity and done very well with it.  That speaks to those 2 QBs.  It's unrelated to ZW's performance with the Jets though.

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Since we saw other QB's perform OK in the MLF system not named Zach Wilson, I think we have enough datapoints to say this would have been false.

Peyton Manning performed well in the Adam Gase system.

Aaron Rodgers performed well in the Nate Hackett system.

Joe Montana performed well in the Paul Hackett system.

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Why not?  You seem to think plugging in any old QB to the 49ers offense would make him perform well, no?

What separates QB's then?  Why is Purdy so good in SF and Lance was traded away?

Sometimes a system works well with a particular QB's skillset.  Other times it's "round hole, square peg".

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4 minutes ago, extmenace said:

Kirk cousins first few years were with Kyle shannahan and Sean Mcvay. Dak was thrust into action with one of the best o lines in recent history and an elite running game.  Stroud is currently performing in an offense with plenty of talent. Your examples are of players that were put in favorable situations. Look, I’m not saying Zach is good. He isn’t. I’m not arguing that. All I am saying is that the guys who pan out generally are put in position to succeed. 

Wilson has decent skill positions, nothing amazing after breece and wilson but still, it’s not barren like when darnold was here.

the underlying problems with wilson are his inability to see the field and fundamental in accuracy.  These two flaws result in everything else we see - holding onto the ball too long, running backwards, poor mechanics and negative plays.  You can’t fix an inaccurate qb.  

Stroud has innate accuracy and did at OSU.  His ball placement was always great.  That would not change if he were on the jets.  Good qbs also throw the ball away more, take fewer sacks and have a higher completion %.  If wilson were on SF you’d see better stats but also not what purdy is doing.  If you had all stars at every offensive position here wilson would still be a below averag qb. 

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Justin Herbert played behind the # 32-ranked OL his rookie year.  He still set the rookie TD record.

Good/very good/elite QB play can only be delayed, not denied.  Traits/DNA matter more than circumstances.  The data backs it up.  

A few posts earlier I basically said you have 3 types of prospects. Guys that will be good anywhere, busts, and guys that need to be put in the right situation. Most prospects, in my opinion, need to be in the right situation. Herbert is awesome and would be one of those guys that could probably do it anywhere. Do we honestly believe josh Allen could of been developed with Adam gase?

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21 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Peyton Manning performed well in the Adam Gase system.

Aaron Rodgers performed well in the Nate Hackett system.

Joe Montana performed well in the Paul Hackett system.

none of this is true.  Peyton called his own plays.  Hackett never called plays for Rodgers and Lefluer was hired to design the O in Green Bay.  Paul Hackett was a disciple of Walsh.  It was Walsh's system and design.  

Chad Pennington, before he was injured played well with Paul Hackett running  the Walsh System without Walsh over seeing it.  

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2 minutes ago, Biggs said:

none of this is true.  Peyton called his own plays.  Hackett never called plays for Rodgers and Lefluer was hired to design the O in Green Bay.  Paul Hackett was a disciple of Walsh.  It was Walsh's system and design.  

Chad Pennington, before he was injured played well with Paul Hackett running  the Walsh System without Walsh over seeing it.  

Did they play (and succeed) under these OCs?  Yes, they did.

And Chad is a great example of how a QB could be perfect for a certain style of system.  Hackett was perfect for a noodle-armed QB who was very accurate on 2 yard passes.

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24 minutes ago, extmenace said:

A few posts earlier I basically said you have 3 types of prospects. Guys that will be good anywhere, busts, and guys that need to be put in the right situation. Most prospects, in my opinion, need to be in the right situation. Herbert is awesome and would be one of those guys that could probably do it anywhere. Do we honestly believe josh Allen could of been developed with Adam gase?

I dunno how you can argue Justin Herbert is in the "awesome/not limited by system" camp but Josh Allen is not.  

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On 11/28/2023 at 11:07 AM, Plen T said:

He’s the best QB on the roster and if he shows something can net more in a trade 

Rodgers is coming back regardless

they are not tanking Zach should be playing playing assBoyle is literally useless 

I could not BELIEVE the ineptitude of Boyle and Simien. I know it was raining and windy but Zach would have played far better. 

I say just go back to Zach and let the chips fall where they may.

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2 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Did they play (and succeed) under these OCs?  Yes, they did.

And Chad is a great example of how a QB could be perfect for a certain style of system.  Hackett was perfect for a noodle-armed QB who was very accurate on 2 yard passes.

None of those OC's had anything to do with the system that was run or the play calling with those QB's.  

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28 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Peyton Manning performed well in the Adam Gase system.

Aaron Rodgers performed well in the Nate Hackett system.

Joe Montana performed well in the Paul Hackett system.

You listed 3 HOFers.  I'm talking about Mike White, Joe Flacco and Josh Johnson dude.  

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25 minutes ago, extmenace said:

A few posts earlier I basically said you have 3 types of prospects. Guys that will be good anywhere, busts, and guys that need to be put in the right situation. Most prospects, in my opinion, need to be in the right situation. Herbert is awesome and would be one of those guys that could probably do it anywhere. Do we honestly believe josh Allen could have been developed with Adam gase?

No reason the jets can’t draft a qb on day 2 who fits into the can be developed category.  

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

And that's the inherent difficulty with OCing for Zach Wilson:  His skillset works for exactly 0 NFL offensive systems.

I'll admit that's kind of hilarious but I still think this is part of the ZW scapegoating.  I still want to see how he'll do in a more professionally run organization that has some actual talent.  It just occurred to me that Pittsburgh would be a good spot for him.  Tomlin is a HOF HC and is winning with Kenny Pickett.

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Some of you guys are obsessed with "systems".  There's only one thing that has been proven about a quality offensive system:  It can only take a QB who is already good/decent and take him to the next level.  It can't "fix" a bust who doesn't have passable NFL skills (most notably processing speed).

Some of you think Pat Mahomes would have busted here and Zach Wilson would be a top 15 / top 20 QB in KC and it simply isn't true.  There's no instances in NFL history to support this kind of stuff.  Its just Looney Tunes / fairy tale stuff you guys use to make yourselves feel better.

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You listed 3 HOFers.  I'm talking about Mike White, Joe Flacco and Josh Johnson dude.  

The point is that, for all the flak those OCs get, they could make the same type of argument: "I was OC for a HOF'er and they thrived and didn't request that I get fired.  My system works!"

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2 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

The point is that, for all the flak those OCs get, they could make the same type of argument: "I was OC for a HOF'er and they thrived and didn't request that I get fired.  My system works!"

I don't even know what you're talking about and why its relevant to my argument.  Zach Wilson was a distant 4th in the list of QBs who played under MLF.  Same circumstances/supporting cast, same system, and those trash QBs were all better.  And it wasn't particularly close.  That is meaningful.  Whatever you're talking about here is just gobbledegook.

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Some of you guys are obsessed with "systems".  There's only one thing that has been proven about a quality offensive system:  It can only take a QB who is already good/decent and take him to the next level. 

It can't "fix" a bust who doesn't have passable NFL skills (most notably processing speed).

Some of you think Pat Mahomes would have busted here and Zach Wilson would be a top 15 / top 20 QB in KC and it simpkly isn't true.  There's no instances in NFL history to support this kind of stuff.  Its just Looney Tunes / fairy tale stuff you guys use to make yourselves feel better.

I'm more obsessed with ZW's supporting cast.  Yes he has GW and Breece but behind a terrible OL and there are no other receivers.  I don't know if ZW would succeed with a competent supporting cast but I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

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5 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'll admit that's kind of hilarious but I still think this is part of the ZW scapegoating.  I still want to see how he'll do in a more professionally run organization that has some actual talent.  It just occurred to me that Pittsburgh would be a good spot for him.  Tomlin is a HOF HC and is winning with Kenny Pickett.

MLF was a professional OC and the supporting cast was fine.  He failed.  He sucks.  Just own it at this point.

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