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Zach should get another shot


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2 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm more obsessed with ZW's supporting cast.  Yes he has GW and Breece but behind a terrible OL and there are no other receivers.  I don't know if ZW would succeed with a competent supporting cast but I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

OL wasn't that bad and Garrett/Breece are a lot more than most young QBs can ask for.  

Highly drafted QBs tend to go to really bad teams and still succeed.  That wasn't the case for Zach Wilson.  He went to a team with a decent enough core and he failed.  Never once elevated the play of his teammates outside of 2 quarters of the KC game and maybe the Titans game as a rookie.

It's over.  Done.  He can't play.

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6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Some of you guys are obsessed with "systems".  There's only one thing that has been proven about a quality offensive system:  It can only take a QB who is already good/decent and take him to the next level.  It can't "fix" a bust who doesn't have passable NFL skills (most notably processing speed).

Some of you think Pat Mahomes would have busted here and Zach Wilson would be a top 15 / top 20 QB in KC and it simply isn't true.  There's no instances in NFL history to support this kind of stuff.  Its just Looney Tunes / fairy tale stuff you guys use to make yourselves feel better.

It’s this simple.  

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Some of you guys are obsessed with "systems".  There's only one thing that has been proven about a quality offensive system:  It can only take a QB who is already good/decent and take him to the next level.  It can't "fix" a bust who doesn't have passable NFL skills (most notably processing speed).

Some of you think Pat Mahomes would have busted here and Zach Wilson would be a top 15 / top 20 QB in KC and it simply isn't true.  There's no instances in NFL history to support this kind of stuff.  Its just Looney Tunes / fairy tale stuff you guys use to make yourselves feel better.

Pat Mahomes is one of the all time greats.  Surrounded by less talent his QBR this year is 10% lower than his career QBR.  His net yards per attempt is way down and he looks nothing like the Michael Jordan of NFL QB's this year.  Brock Purdy is killing him statistically because he has better talent around him and competent coaching.  

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

MLF was a professional OC and the supporting cast was fine.  He failed.  He sucks.  Just own it at this point.

ZW year 1&2 was terrible.  ZW year 3 showed a lot more promise, imo.  ZW didn't play under MLF this year.  

Whatever though.  ZW isn't going to be on the team after this year.  I was just commenting that I wouldn't be surprised if he flourished elsewhere (if given a chance in the right situation).

I just hope he doesn't play for us the rest of this year.  Boyle/Siemian give us our best chance to lose out.

 

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2 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Pat Mahomes is one of the all time greats.  Surrounded by less talent his QBR this year is 10% lower than his career QBR.  His net yards per attempt is way down and he looks nothing like the Michael Jordan of NFL QB's this year.  Brock Purdy is killing him statistically because he has better talent around him and competent coaching.  

He's still top 10 in nearly all key metrics.  So if this is his "floor" its still quite high.  

It's also high time you guys acknowledge this Purdy guy is pretty freaking good.  It's certainly no longer an insult to say X QB is lower than Purdy on whatever list you choose.

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

OL wasn't that bad and Garrett/Breece are a lot more than most young QBs can ask for.  

Highly drafted QBs tend to go to really bad teams and still succeed.  That wasn't the case for Zach Wilson.  He went to a team with a decent enough core and he failed.  Never once elevated the play of his teammates outside of 2 quarters of the KC game and maybe the Titans game as a rookie.

It's over.  Done.  He can't play.

I'm talking about year 3 ZW.  Regardless, you're allowed to have your opinions.  We don't have to agree with one another.

And ftr, I'm not saying I'm certain he'll succeed elsewhere.  I'm saying that, given the right situation, I think it's realistic to think that he can.  

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1 minute ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm talking about year 3 ZW.  Regardless, you're allowed to have your opinions.  We don't have to agree with one another.

And ftr, I'm not saying I'm certain he'll succeed elsewhere.  I'm saying that, given the right situation, I think it's realistic to think that he can.  

Well he still has Garrett and Breece in Year 3 and the OL, overall, was solid the first 5 or so weeks of the season.  Even that Dallas game you like to talk about it was part Micah Parsons, part Zach holding the ball too long (like he's ALWAYS done).  No good excuses for the 3 INTs he threw, either.

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6 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

ZW year 1&2 was terrible.  ZW year 3 showed a lot more promise, imo.  ZW didn't play under MLF this year.  

Whatever though.  ZW isn't going to be on the team after this year.  I was just commenting that I wouldn't be surprised if he flourished elsewhere (if given a chance in the right situation).

I just hope he doesn't play for us the rest of this year.  Boyle/Siemian give us our best chance to lose out.

 

If you had to put your career on ZW becoming a good qb would you?  What if you would lose your job if you told your boss right now, yes, i can turn him around, and your boss said ok, but if he doesn’t you’re fired.  Or, you could take another qb.  What’s your decision?

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Well he still has Garrett and Breece in Year 3 and the OL, overall, was solid the first 5 or so weeks of the season.  Even that Dallas game you like to talk about it was part Micah Parsons, part Zach holding the ball too long (like he's ALWAYS done).  No good excuses for the 3 INTs he threw, either.

You can't possibly be serious blaming ZW for the Dallas loss.  Dallas destroyed our OL that game.

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1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

Besides a good arm i can’t list one other positive trait or characteristic that ZW has that would be an encouraging thing to say he can turn it around.  

 Very much on that Brady Quinn career path.

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

It's a perfectly reasonable criticism and it might be legit.  But I do want to point out that Brock Purdy is #1 on that chart.  How is his supporting cast relative to ZW's?  And if Purdy were on the Jets and played all the games ZW did, where do you think he would fall on this chart?

We like to do this with every bad QB: “what if he was in that Niners offense, then he’d be good!” It’s not true, though. Shanahan posted a 3-13 season not too long ago because he didn’t have a quarterback. Add to this that Mike LaFleur put Zach Wilson in a variation of that Shanahan system and he was the worst QB in the league and held the ball forever, which is anathema to the Shanahan system. 

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6 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm talking about year 3 ZW.  Regardless, you're allowed to have your opinions.  We don't have to agree with one another.

And ftr, I'm not saying I'm certain he'll succeed elsewhere.  I'm saying that, given the right situation, I think it's realistic to think that he can.  

We certainly know you'll be rooting for him to succeed elsewhere.

I hope Zach winds up with the Patriots, so guys like you can enjoy secretly rooting for him against the Jets and pretending publicly here that you're not, lol.

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Just now, T0mShane said:

 Very much on that Brady Quinn career path.

We like to do this with every bad QB: “what if he was in that Niners offense, then he’d be good!” It’s not true, though. Shanahan posted a 3-13 season not too long ago because he didn’t have a quarterback. Add to this that Mike LaFleur put Zach Wilson in a variation of that Shanahan system and he was the worst QB in the league and held the ball forever, which is anathema to the Shanahan system. 

The problem is that new gms come here and draft qbs based on physical traits and perceived potential rather than traits that make a good qb.  Take wilson and darnold.  Inherently inaccurate throwers, good athletes, bad footwork.  Good coaches aren’t ‘developing’ this. 

Give me a guy like pratt from tulane, mature, good mechanics, good field vision, average arm.  That guy will play qb in the nfl.  Wilson will be gone.  Focus is on all the wrong skill sets. 

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Man all this arguing back and forth about Qb’s, systems and hypothesis of who would be better where, trying to prove your points is just nonsense.  There isn’t  one single player or players ability at fault with the team’s performance. It’s a combination of all factors of the team.  The team is poorly coached and prepared.  Mostly on the offensive side.  The defense and special teams are mostly solid, no worries there. 
offense….. that’s a totally different story. 
now after seeing all Qb’s play, it’s inherently clear that the offensive line and coaches are bad.  In the past 3 seasons we have had over 20 variations of the line start games, so many injuries that it has to make you ask and wonder what are they being coached like?  Is it the philosophy of the line blocking scheme? Is it the quality of instruction? 
all I know and feel is that is the one major red flag with the team. 
I knew and laughed when I read all the “knowledgeable “ posters here calling for Boyle, then Siemian, how all of it was going to shake out, and posted in another thread telling all the bench Zach guys that they got what you asked for and to own up to it when their takes were wrong. 
 

sorry to say it, but Zach does give us the best chance to win, and Saleh is a meathead wuss for not having the convictions to stand by him like he stated in the start of the season, and all you armchair GMs were all completely wrong again.  😂 

 

go ahead and come at me with all y’all’s BS reasons or excuses of why your opinions are still right, and I’ll just silently sit here and laugh.  Yesterday and the week before proved all y’all wrong. 
 

Semper Fi 

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

We certainly know you'll be rooting for him to succeed elsewhere.

I hope Zach winds up with the Patriots, so guys like you can enjoy secretly rooting for him against the Jets and pretending publicly here that you're not, lol.

I will be rooting for him to succeed, so long as it doesn't interfere with the Jets' interests.

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I hope Zach winds up with the Patriots, so guys like you can enjoy secretly rooting for him against the Jets and pretending publicly here that you're not, lol.

I'm a Patriots' fan now?  LMAO!

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

The team would quit as hard as it could quit if they rolled Zach back out there

Perhaps but IMHO having either of the other two out there would be more demoralizing.  I'd bet the fans would boo less with Zach under center now that they have seen the alternatives.  

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5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

We like to do this with every bad QB: “what if he was in that Niners offense, then he’d be good!” It’s not true, though. Shanahan posted a 3-13 season not too long ago because he didn’t have a quarterback. Add to this that Mike LaFleur put Zach Wilson in a variation of that Shanahan system and he was the worst QB in the league and held the ball forever, which is anathema to the Shanahan system. 

I'm talking more about his supporting cast (which Shanahan is a part of)  

You might be right about ZW though.  He might stink.  But personally, I'm not sold on it yet.

I'll ask again about Brock Purdy though.  How would he do if he was on the Jets this year and got all of ZW's playing time?

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1 minute ago, fastmover said:

Man all this arguing back and forth about Qb’s, systems and hypothesis of who would be better where, trying to prove your points is just nonsense.  There isn’t  one single player or players ability at fault with the team’s performance. It’s a combination of all factors of the team.  The team is poorly coached and prepared.  Mostly on the offensive side.  The defense and special teams are mostly solid, no worries there. 
offense….. that’s a totally different story. 
now after seeing all Qb’s play, it’s inherently clear that the offensive line and coaches are bad.  In the past 3 seasons we have had over 20 variations of the line start games, so many injuries that it has to make you ask and wonder what are they being coached like?  Is it the philosophy of the line blocking scheme? Is it the quality of instruction? 
all I know and feel is that is the one major red flag with the team. 
I knew and laughed when I read all the “knowledgeable “ posters here calling for Boyle, then Siemian, how all of it was going to shake out, and posted in another thread telling all the bench Zach guys that they got what you asked for and to own up to it when their takes were wrong. 
 

sorry to say it, but Zach does give us the best chance to win, and Saleh is a meathead wuss for not having the convictions to stand by him like he stated in the start of the season, and all you armchair GMs were all completely wrong again.  😂 

 

go ahead and come at me with all y’all’s BS reasons or excuses of why your opinions are still right, and I’ll just silently sit here and laugh.  Yesterday and the week before proved all y’all wrong. 
 

Semper Fi 

Standing by a sh*tty player that is performing in a sh*tty manner demonstrates poor coaching and being a meathead wuss?  The offensive line coaches and much of the offensive staff is different.  Lack of cohesion and a complete loss of confidence are the issues.  It seems they are warranted, so I don't know that there is an answer. 

You laugh at all the simplistic answers on a message board - heaven forfend!  Then you spout as simplistic a bunch of nonsense as has ever been seen around here.  All that bullsh*t ranting and "sorry to say it" but putting Zach back in is your "solution?"  Jeez.

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Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Standing by a sh*tty player that is performing in a sh*tty manner demonstrates poor coaching and being a meathead wuss?  The offensive line coaches and much of the offensive staff is different.  Lack of cohesion and a complete loss of confidence are the issues.  It seems they are warranted, so I don't know that there is an answer. 

You laugh at all the simplistic answers on a message board - heaven forfend!  Then you spout as simplistic a bunch of nonsense as has ever been seen around here.  All that bullsh*t ranting and "sorry to say it" but putting Zach back in is your "solution?"  Jeez.

First up at bat….. 🤣 

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11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

He's still top 10 in nearly all key metrics.  So if this is his "floor" its still quite high.  

It's also high time you guys acknowledge this Purdy guy is pretty freaking good.  It's certainly no longer an insult to say X QB is lower than Purdy on whatever list you choose.

Mahomes is playing in the same system now for years.  He still has some great talent around him.  He's in his absolute prime.  He's play is severely restricted by the surrounding cast.  

Purdy is obviously one of the best QB's in the NFL.  Anyone denying that is out of their mind.  He's also likely being aided by a great supporting cast and outstanding coaching staff.

Yesterday's game between the Jets and Atlanta was pretty interesting.  Two very similiar teams.  Atlanta has a young QB who's not an all world player.   He's got a big talented TE and WR along with a good rotational running game. He's getting excellent coaching.  He looked competent.  OL and talent at running back, TE and WR and coaching actually showed up.  The Jets have some talent at WR and running back, the OL is a mess and the coaching is terrible.  Granted Tim Boyle is awful and Simian was taken out of the cryogenic freezer 5 minutes after half time, but you get the idea. 

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3 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Mahomes is playing in the same system now for years.  He still has some great talent around him.  He's in his absolute prime.  He's play is severely restricted by the surrounding cast.  

Purdy is obviously one of the best QB's in the NFL.  Anyone denying that is out of their mind.  He's also likely being aided by a great supporting cast and outstanding coaching staff.

Yesterday's game between the Jets and Atlanta was pretty interesting.  Two very similiar teams.  Atlanta has a young QB who's not an all world player.   He's got a big talented TE and WR along with a good rotational running game. He's getting excellent coaching.  He looked competent.  OL and talent at running back, TE and WR and coaching actually showed up.  The Jets have some talent at WR and running back, the OL is a mess and the coaching is terrible.  Granted Tim Boyle is awful and Simian was taken out of the cryogenic freezer 5 minutes after half time, but you get the idea. 

The problem is that since saleh, ZW and douglas have been here the entire offense has sucked.  And yes even before they arrived the o sucked.  Main difference is that now there’s more talent on offense, they never had a hall or garrett nor did they have guys on the OL who could really play.  

It’s always the qb, still the qb, douglas tried with rodgers b/c he knew he needed a qb.  They still need a qb.  

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11 minutes ago, fastmover said:

Man all this arguing back and forth about Qb’s, systems and hypothesis of who would be better where, trying to prove your points is just nonsense.  There isn’t  one single player or players ability at fault with the team’s performance. It’s a combination of all factors of the team.  The team is poorly coached and prepared.  Mostly on the offensive side.  The defense and special teams are mostly solid, no worries there. 
offense….. that’s a totally different story. 
now after seeing all Qb’s play, it’s inherently clear that the offensive line and coaches are bad.  In the past 3 seasons we have had over 20 variations of the line start games, so many injuries that it has to make you ask and wonder what are they being coached like?  Is it the philosophy of the line blocking scheme? Is it the quality of instruction? 
all I know and feel is that is the one major red flag with the team. 
I knew and laughed when I read all the “knowledgeable “ posters here calling for Boyle, then Siemian, how all of it was going to shake out, and posted in another thread telling all the bench Zach guys that they got what you asked for and to own up to it when their takes were wrong. 
 

sorry to say it, but Zach does give us the best chance to win, and Saleh is a meathead wuss for not having the convictions to stand by him like he stated in the start of the season, and all you armchair GMs were all completely wrong again.  😂 

 

go ahead and come at me with all y’all’s BS reasons or excuses of why your opinions are still right, and I’ll just silently sit here and laugh.  Yesterday and the week before proved all y’all wrong. 
 

Semper Fi 

Pretty good post, thanks for the point of view, esp the bold.  

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12 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I will be rooting for him to succeed, so long as it doesn't interfere with the Jets' interests.

I don't believe you.  I think you'd be like a pig in poop with happiness if you were proven "right" by Zach beating the Jets head to head.

12 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm a Patriots' fan now?  LMAO!

If Zach goes to the Pats, yes, I think a part of you (and several others here) will root for him to beat us soundly so they can be proven right on the internet, absolutely.  That's the problem with rooting so hard for players (instead of the laundry) that you start rooting against your own team because of it.  We had Darnold fans who did it, Geno fans who did it, Sanchez fans who did it, etc.  Happens every time some fans get overly invested in a guy and refuse to let it go once they're gone from NY.

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1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

If you had to put your career on ZW becoming a good qb would you?  What if you would lose your job if you told your boss right now, yes, i can turn him around, and your boss said ok, but if he doesn’t you’re fired.  Or, you could take another qb.  What’s your decision?

I don't think your question is really the right one to ask (more on that below) but I'll play along anyway.  Obviously it's going to depend heavily on who my options are for "Or, you could take another qb".  Caleb Williams?  Drake Maye?  Jayden Daniels?  I'd happily take any of them over ZW.  If my choice is Mac Jones then give me ZW.

But I think the better (and more realistic) question is to ask would you bring ZW in to be a backup somewhere.  If I'm the 49ers, I would absolutely take a chance on him and I'd give him a real chance to win the QB2 job.  I think the Steelers are another organization where he could succeed.

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1 minute ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I don't think your question is really the right one to ask (more on that below) but I'll play along anyway.  Obviously it's going to depend heavily on who my options are for "Or, you could take another qb".  Caleb Williams?  Drake Maybe?  Jayden Daniels?  I'd happily take any of them over ZW.  If my choice is Mac Jones then give me ZW.

But I think the better (and more realistic) question is to ask would you bring ZW in to be a backup somewhere.  If I'm the 49ers, I would absolutely take a chance on him and I'd give him a real chance to win the QB2 job.  I think the Steelers are another organization where he could succeed.

The problem is that you’re advocating for wilson with no consequences.  As soon as there’s a consequence, it’s obvious you won’t choose him 

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15 minutes ago, fastmover said:

Man all this arguing back and forth about Qb’s, systems and hypothesis of who would be better where, trying to prove your points is just nonsense.  There isn’t  one single player or players ability at fault with the team’s performance. It’s a combination of all factors of the team.  The team is poorly coached and prepared.  Mostly on the offensive side.  The defense and special teams are mostly solid, no worries there. 
offense….. that’s a totally different story. 
now after seeing all Qb’s play, it’s inherently clear that the offensive line and coaches are bad.  In the past 3 seasons we have had over 20 variations of the line start games, so many injuries that it has to make you ask and wonder what are they being coached like?  Is it the philosophy of the line blocking scheme? Is it the quality of instruction? 
all I know and feel is that is the one major red flag with the team. 
I knew and laughed when I read all the “knowledgeable “ posters here calling for Boyle, then Siemian, how all of it was going to shake out, and posted in another thread telling all the bench Zach guys that they got what you asked for and to own up to it when their takes were wrong. 
 

sorry to say it, but Zach does give us the best chance to win, and Saleh is a meathead wuss for not having the convictions to stand by him like he stated in the start of the season, and all you armchair GMs were all completely wrong again.  😂 

 

go ahead and come at me with all y’all’s BS reasons or excuses of why your opinions are still right, and I’ll just silently sit here and laugh.  Yesterday and the week before proved all y’all wrong. 
 

Semper Fi 

Everything is bad on the offensive side.

QB is bad

OL is BAD

WR minus G,Wilson are bad. Nobody gets open and nobody can throw a WR open.

In a nutshell the offense is complete cluster flunk.

The jets are going to need to use every draft pick they have or can get on the offense. Free Agency has to be all about the offense.

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25 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

You can't possibly be serious blaming ZW for the Dallas loss.  Dallas destroyed our OL that game.

I'll blame him for any loss I'd like, thanks.  He's never once been the driving force in a win in his career outside of maybe the Titans game as a rookie.  And lord knows the team dragged him to quite a few wins (11, to be exact) in spite of him. 

So, yeah, he deserves to take every L, especially since the Zach defending crowd LOVED to talk about all of "Zach's wins".  He's 12-20 in his NFL career.  He sucks.

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'll blame him for any loss I'd like, thanks.  He's never once been the driving force in a win in his career outside of maybe the Titans game as a rookie.  And lord knows the team dragged him to quite a few wins (11, to be exact) in spite of him.

He never carries the team, never has a good td, never has that one drive that makes yo believe.  I can’t believe some are still defending him. He would not be qb2 on any team in the nfl.  He’s that bad. 

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

I don't believe you.  I think you'd be like a pig in poop with happiness if you were proven "right" by Zach beating the Jets head to head.

If Zach goes to the Pats, yes, I think a part of you (and several others here) will root for him to beat us soundly so they can be proven right on the internet, absolutely.  That's the problem with rooting so hard for players you start rooting against your own team because of it.  We had Darnold fans who did it, Geno fans who did it, Sanchez fans who did it, etc.  Happens every time some fans get overly invested in a guy and refuse to let it go once they're gone from NY.

You don't believe me?  I don't really mind, tbh.

Have you always rooted for ZW to succeed, btw?  Or did you ever root against him because you dislike him (either as a player or as a person or whatever) and you "wanted to be proven right"?  And did it make you feel like "a pig in poop with happiness" because you felt you were "proven right" about him?

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7 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The problem is that you’re advocating for wilson with no consequences.  As soon as there’s a consequence, it’s obvious you won’t choose him 

Exactly.  Tuscany would love to see how Wilson does elsewhere....but what GM out there with skin in the game is trading for/signing him to be anything more than a project QB3? 

If the other 31 GMs were smart he wouldn't get picked up at all.  We know one will, though, so the only question is whether that one is dumb enough to hand him QB2 duties.

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5 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The problem is that you’re advocating for wilson with no consequences.  As soon as there’s a consequence, it’s obvious you won’t choose him 

I'm saying that if I were a GM, I'd absolutely be interested in picking up ZW on the cheap and giving him a legit chance to compete for QB2. 

Would I trust him with QB1 next year?  No.  

I don't know if that answers your question.  

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18 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm talking more about his supporting cast (which Shanahan is a part of)  

You might be right about ZW though.  He might stink.  But personally, I'm not sold on it yet.

I'll ask again about Brock Purdy though.  How would he do if he was on the Jets this year and got all of ZW's playing time?

If you called the Niners in two months and offered Zach Wilson for Brock Purdy straight up, do they take that deal? 

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1 minute ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm saying that if I were a GM, I'd absolutely be interested in picking up ZW on the cheap and giving him a legit chance to compete for QB2. 

Would I trust him with QB1 next year?  No.  

I don't know if that answers your question.  

You might but most others would not.  There’s enough tape on him now.  

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