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NFL teams with offensive-minded head coaches are more likely to succeed (WaPo)


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26 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

and this is what happens when your hire DC after DC like we do........the GM doesn't even have a proper buffer when making these evaluations.....

Sidenote: that makes Saleh's comments(or lack thereof) about Zach's draft process interesting. What if he said I don't think this kid is a good fit for us and JD/Woody were already convinced that he was the guy? 

actually, it was far worse. Saleh delegated all offense to his hand picked OC, MLF. MLF LOVED Zach, and pushed hard for him. This is why I don't understand at all how MLF or Saleh somehow get a pass for ZW. When you bring in bad coaches, you get bad QB's

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1 minute ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

actually, it was far worse. Saleh delegated all offense to his hand picked OC, MLF. MLF LOVED Zach, and pushed hard for him. This is why I don't understand at all how MLF or Saleh somehow get a pass for ZW. When you bring in bad coaches, you get bad QB's

No matter what the coaches say it's the GMs decision to draft Zach not MLF 

In fact most high draft pick qbs require ownership level sign off 

Side note there was a rumor before the 2021 draft that the coaches wanted to run it back with darnold and take one of the studs like Sewell or chase instead 

 

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1 hour ago, JetPotato said:

I've been saying this for quite some time now. Thanks for catching up, WaPo.

"Defensive" head coaches simply aren't going to be able to hire elite offensive coaching staffs to work under them. Why? Because elite offensive coaches also get hired as head coaches for more intelligently run teams than the NY Jets. What offensive coordinator and staff is a rookie HC like Saleh going to get? He's on his 2nd one already, and the guy is a product of nepotism and the luck of being liked by Aaron Rodgers personally. He hasn't proven successful on his own once.

Say what you want about the QB, but the teams that win because of the QB got there because their staff was able to identify the talent and develop it. It's not like Mahomes, Hurts etc were top 5 picks like Zach and Darnold and every other failure we draft.

This league is about offense 1st. Do something about, Woody. Or die off and let someone else try, PLEASE. Yes, I said it.

There's also an incentive to be more conservative to hold the ball more on offense, which rests the defense as a byproduct. Every defensive coach just wants to run the ball (or so it seems). Who wants to be an OC for a coach who preaches & praises ball control more than actually scoring touchdowns? We end up getting more of the same: run + run to put the team into 3rd & manageable, then the man most open is still often short of the sticks and hope for YAC to get a new set of downs, then try to lather rinse repeat all the way down the field if the RB doesn't break a long run.

The thing is even if it's your high-caliber defense that chiefly gets you to the playoffs, no unit is good/elite every week without exception, and sometimes you still have to win a shootout against a team that can put up gobs of points in a hurry. 

It's great when it happens, but you can't realistically expect a defense to always keep the best opponents under 20 points (if not under 10-14 points) and be able to run the ball 30x to keep moving the chains over & over literally every game. It's why I was not as receptive to the "the defense blew it" against Pittsburgh in our last championship game, which feels like 30 years ago now. At some point our offense has to put 20 measly points on the board (without surrendering a TD themselves), and a rookie D-HC overseeing a rookie QB just isn't setting up a team to have a deadly offense. 

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7 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There's also an incentive to be more conservative to hold the ball more on offense, which rests the defense as a byproduct. Every defensive coach just wants to run the ball (or so it seems). Who wants to be an OC for a coach who preaches & praises ball control more than actually scoring touchdowns? We end up getting more of the same: run + run to put the team into 3rd & manageable, then the man most open is still often short of the sticks and hope for YAC to get a new set of downs, then try to lather rinse repeat all the way down the field if the RB doesn't break a long run.

The thing is even if it's your high-caliber defense that chiefly gets you to the playoffs, no unit is good elite week without exception and sometimes you still have to win a shootout against a team that can put up gobs of points in a hurry. 

It's great when it happens, but you can't realistically expect a defense to always keep the best opponents under 20 points (if not under 10-14 points) and be able to run the ball 30x to keep moving the chains over & over literally every game. It's why I was not as receptive to the "the defense blew it" against Pittsburgh in our last championship game, which feels like 30 years ago now. At some point our offense has to put 20 measly points on the board (without surrendering a TD themselves), and a rookie D-HC overseeing a rookie QB just isn't setting up a team to have a deadly offense. 

Exactly.

We've been watching the same story play out for what... 20 years now? Blows my mind that there are still fans of this team that aren't connecting the dots. It's fairly simple to see.

As long as Robert Saleh sits in the head coaching chair, who is the organization going to bring in to coach the offense that is considered good enough to develop a QB? WHO????

That chair needs to go to that guy. He's not playing 2nd fiddle to Captain T-Shirt.

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3 hours ago, Warfish said:

The Washington Post

NFL teams with offensive-minded head coaches are more likely to succeed
Story by Neil Greenberg  • 
19h

Washington Commanders head coach Ron Rivera fired defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio and defensive backs coach Brent Vieselmeyer after the team gave up 431 yards and 45 points in a loss to the Dallas Cowboys on Thanksgiving Day, but that doesn’t figure to be the end of the changes in Ashburn. There is wide speculation that Commanders owner Josh Harris will keep Rivera through the end of this season but no further, which would open the door for a new face to help revitalize the franchise.

If so, that won’t be the NFL’s only opening. The Raiders and Panthers already fired their head coaches, and more teams are sure to follow. Washington Post contributor Jason La Canfora posited recently that the downtrend of offenses across the league could lead to defensive-minded coaches dominating the next NFL hiring cycle. Perhaps, but that would be a mistake, because offensive-minded coaches have outperformed their defensive counterparts since 2002, when the league expanded to 32 teams.

There are many ways to evaluate success in the NFL; the primary metric we will use here is expected points added, the number of points scored above or below what we would expect after accounting for the down, distance and field position of each play. The top teams in net expected points added this season include the Dallas Cowboys, San Francisco 49ers and Baltimore Ravens, all on the shortlist of Super Bowl contenders. The bottom three teams are the Arizona Cardinals, Carolina Panthers and New York Giants, poor performers whose inclusion here suggests that this metric passes the eye test.

Before moving forward we should stipulate that offensive performance is now more important than defensive performance and the adage “defense wins championships” does not have as much merit as it did in the past. From 2002 to 2006, the average offensive expected points added rank for a team appearing in the Super Bowl was 11th, while the average defensive rank was 10th. By 2018 to 2022, those had shifted to fifth and 11th, respectively. The past seven Super Bowl winners were ranked no lower than seventh in offensive expected points added, while three of the seven had defenses that ranked 11th or worse. In other words, offensive powerhouses are taking over the championship landscape.

Now that we’ve established that proficient offenses are most important for championship contenders in the modern game, we can dive into how much better offensive-minded head coaches have been for their teams.

Over the past 20 full seasons, 53 percent of the head coaches in the NFL had prior experience on the offensive side of the game, including offensive coordinators, quarterbacks coaches and so on. Teams coached by those offensive-minded head coaches have accounted for 61 percent of the top five offenses in the NFL over that span. In other words, they have been responsible for more than their fair share of stellar team performances. They also have been at the helm for 55 percent of the top five defensive performances; again, more than their fair share. That means, of course, that defensive-minded coaches have accounted for less than their share of top five offensive and defensive performances.

If you were to select a team playing from 2002 to 2022 at random and that team ranked in the top five for both offense and defense, there would be a 34 percent chance that team appeared in the Super Bowl that season. If the team you selected was top five in offense and average in defense, the chance drops to 14 percent. Select a team with an average offense and a top five defense and the odds slip even further, to eight percent. Teams that didn’t rank in the top five in either category had less than a one percent chance of participating in a Super Bowl.

It’s not just Super Bowls, either. Offensive-minded head coaches have won 51 percent of their games since 2002, while defensive-minded head coaches have won just 48 percent. Over each of the past three seasons, coaches plucked from the offensive side of the ball have outperformed their defensive counterparts in regular season win rate. Coaches with offensive backgrounds have been more successful in the playoffs, too, winning 51 percent of their postseason games since 2002, compared to 49 percent for coaches from the other side of the ball. If you remove Bill Belichick (with six Super Bowls and a 31-13 playoff record) from the ranks of defensive-minded coaches, the combined playoff win rate for that group drops to 44 percent.

The good news for Washington fans is there remain some promising offensive candidates, including Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson. Johnson teamed with Coach Dan Campbell to assume play-calling responsibilities after Detroit’s 0-8 start in 2021, and the Lions’ offense took off. He was named offensive coordinator in 2022, and this season the Lions’ offense has been one of the league’s most efficient, scoring 2.6 more points than expected per game, the seventh-highest mark.

The recent success of young offensive-minded head coaches such as Sean McVay (Los Angeles Rams), Kyle Shanahan (San Francisco 49ers) and Zac Taylor (Cincinnati Bengals) has created a sense that offensive innovation can lead to a quick turnaround, and front offices have taken notice. Three of the five coaching hires in 2023 hailed from the offensive ranks, and six of the 10 hires in 2022 were also offensive-minded coaches. There’s no reason for the pendulum to swing back. The numbers indicate that teams should continue to prioritize offensive backgrounds when making head coaching decisions.

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22 minutes ago, bitonti said:

No matter what the coaches say it's the GMs decision to draft Zach not MLF 

In fact most high draft pick qbs require ownership level sign off 

Side note there was a rumor before the 2021 draft that the coaches wanted to run it back with darnold and take one of the studs like Sewell or chase instead 

 

I disagree with you, not in a well run organziation with the right coach. The problem is we are not a well run organization and we have bad coaches. And make no misktae, MLF was a huge part of the ZW pick, he loved him and wanted him badly.

This is actually how it should be, the OC should have major input in the QB they are going to have run their system, they should be able to idnetify the traits and skill set they want to run their offense and style of play. Not every coach is going to make an offense around a player like the Ravens did.

This is why you need competent offensive coaches who know what they are doing. Clearly MLF and Saleh do not

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Which Harbaugh is going to be the big name this cycle?  John was a special teams coach, but I don't think the Ravens are moving on.  Jim was a fairly high level QB in the NFL, but he didn't coach specials.  He was an offensive assistant for his dad at Western Kentucky and then a QB coach for Bill Callahan with the Raiders.  After that it has been nothing but head jobs.  Is his leaving Michigan a thing?  Again?

The Michigan one.

Will he leave?  No idea.  Will someone offer him enough $ and the right spot to entice him?  Maybe.

I could see the new Ownership in D.C. luring him away, as an example.  No GM in place, whole staff about to get canned at seasons end.

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30 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

actually, it was far worse. Saleh delegated all offense to his hand picked OC, MLF. MLF LOVED Zach, and pushed hard for him. This is why I don't understand at all how MLF or Saleh somehow get a pass for ZW. When you bring in bad coaches, you get bad QB's

That's gross.....

It truly amazing this team still has a fanbase with how utterly incompetent everyone associated with the organization are

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1 hour ago, carlito1171 said:

Yea, understood lol.........there's a <1% chance Saleh is gone for reasons we've discussed ad nauseum...

Outside of Ben Johnson the Lions OC (who I do like) there isn't much out there in the offensive talent pool....no one with a ton of experience. Even the retread candidates are mostly from the defensive side of the ball

For convo sake I'd be intrigued by Raheem Morris, Rams DC, one of the few out there with extensive experience on both sides of the ball, and HC and Interim HC experience......his time in Tampa had more lows then highs(Was a 30 year old HC before it was popular) but I think he's learned a ton since then from some great coaches (Mike and Kyle Shanahan, Gruden, Dan Quinn, McVay) and would do well in his next stint. Also has a ton of connections in the league and would build a great staff (a key component of success IMO) 

Beienemy is likely to be available too, feeling here in DC is he's not going to get the HC Job himself, nor be retained as O-Co under some new regime unless that new regime really wants him.

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3 hours ago, Warfish said:

The Washington Post

NFL teams with offensive-minded head coaches are more likely to succeed
Story by Neil Greenberg  • 
19h

Washington Commanders head coach Ron Rivera fired defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio and defensive backs coach Brent Vieselmeyer after the team gave up 431 yards and 45 points in a loss to the Dallas Cowboys on Thanksgiving Day, but that doesn’t figure to be the end of the changes in Ashburn. There is wide speculation that Commanders owner Josh Harris will keep Rivera through the end of this season but no further, which would open the door for a new face to help revitalize the franchise.

If so, that won’t be the NFL’s only opening. The Raiders and Panthers already fired their head coaches, and more teams are sure to follow. Washington Post contributor Jason La Canfora posited recently that the downtrend of offenses across the league could lead to defensive-minded coaches dominating the next NFL hiring cycle. Perhaps, but that would be a mistake, because offensive-minded coaches have outperformed their defensive counterparts since 2002, when the league expanded to 32 teams.

There are many ways to evaluate success in the NFL; the primary metric we will use here is expected points added, the number of points scored above or below what we would expect after accounting for the down, distance and field position of each play. The top teams in net expected points added this season include the Dallas Cowboys, San Francisco 49ers and Baltimore Ravens, all on the shortlist of Super Bowl contenders. The bottom three teams are the Arizona Cardinals, Carolina Panthers and New York Giants, poor performers whose inclusion here suggests that this metric passes the eye test.

Before moving forward we should stipulate that offensive performance is now more important than defensive performance and the adage “defense wins championships” does not have as much merit as it did in the past. From 2002 to 2006, the average offensive expected points added rank for a team appearing in the Super Bowl was 11th, while the average defensive rank was 10th. By 2018 to 2022, those had shifted to fifth and 11th, respectively. The past seven Super Bowl winners were ranked no lower than seventh in offensive expected points added, while three of the seven had defenses that ranked 11th or worse. In other words, offensive powerhouses are taking over the championship landscape.

Now that we’ve established that proficient offenses are most important for championship contenders in the modern game, we can dive into how much better offensive-minded head coaches have been for their teams.

Over the past 20 full seasons, 53 percent of the head coaches in the NFL had prior experience on the offensive side of the game, including offensive coordinators, quarterbacks coaches and so on. Teams coached by those offensive-minded head coaches have accounted for 61 percent of the top five offenses in the NFL over that span. In other words, they have been responsible for more than their fair share of stellar team performances. They also have been at the helm for 55 percent of the top five defensive performances; again, more than their fair share. That means, of course, that defensive-minded coaches have accounted for less than their share of top five offensive and defensive performances.

If you were to select a team playing from 2002 to 2022 at random and that team ranked in the top five for both offense and defense, there would be a 34 percent chance that team appeared in the Super Bowl that season. If the team you selected was top five in offense and average in defense, the chance drops to 14 percent. Select a team with an average offense and a top five defense and the odds slip even further, to eight percent. Teams that didn’t rank in the top five in either category had less than a one percent chance of participating in a Super Bowl.

It’s not just Super Bowls, either. Offensive-minded head coaches have won 51 percent of their games since 2002, while defensive-minded head coaches have won just 48 percent. Over each of the past three seasons, coaches plucked from the offensive side of the ball have outperformed their defensive counterparts in regular season win rate. Coaches with offensive backgrounds have been more successful in the playoffs, too, winning 51 percent of their postseason games since 2002, compared to 49 percent for coaches from the other side of the ball. If you remove Bill Belichick (with six Super Bowls and a 31-13 playoff record) from the ranks of defensive-minded coaches, the combined playoff win rate for that group drops to 44 percent.

The good news for Washington fans is there remain some promising offensive candidates, including Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson. Johnson teamed with Coach Dan Campbell to assume play-calling responsibilities after Detroit’s 0-8 start in 2021, and the Lions’ offense took off. He was named offensive coordinator in 2022, and this season the Lions’ offense has been one of the league’s most efficient, scoring 2.6 more points than expected per game, the seventh-highest mark.

The recent success of young offensive-minded head coaches such as Sean McVay (Los Angeles Rams), Kyle Shanahan (San Francisco 49ers) and Zac Taylor (Cincinnati Bengals) has created a sense that offensive innovation can lead to a quick turnaround, and front offices have taken notice. Three of the five coaching hires in 2023 hailed from the offensive ranks, and six of the 10 hires in 2022 were also offensive-minded coaches. There’s no reason for the pendulum to swing back. The numbers indicate that teams should continue to prioritize offensive backgrounds when making head coaching decisions.

Teams that try to score more tend to win.

Wild!

Also, things placed on fire tend to burn.

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Just now, bitonti said:

Source? 

The coaches got behind a decision that was made way above their pay grade because they value their jobs 

 

It was well documented at the time, I am not digging up articles, it was the other way around, One scout and MLF were very very high on ZW. This was confirmed by our guys on this board with in house knowledge. You don't believe it becuase you have a narrative. I remember it clearly because I was on record saying I did not like the QB class but if I would take one it would be Fields, becuase Fields had the legs to overcome early passing struggles.

When I read even before the draft, how much MLF liked ZW, and I had read how MLF was a young brilliant offensive mind, I came around on the idea of picking ZW. 

The big problem is that MLF had zero business being an OC, and even less picking a QB. Mabye some day he will be ready for that, but clearly wasnt with ZW

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8 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Beienemy is likely to be available too, feeling here in DC is he's not going to get the HC Job himself, nor be retained as O-Co under some new regime unless that new regime really wants him.

I keep forgetting about Bieniemy.....always thought he should have gotten an HC shot by now just not sure it should be with us.....Woody interviewed him the last two HC searches

Looking at the work he's done with the Commanders Offense and specifically with Howell's development I think he's done well. Correct me if I'm wrong as I know you follow Washington much closer then any of us do. 

He also has a reputation for being a demanding, discipline coach and we know we could use some work in this area

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16 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

You don't believe it becuase you have a narrative.

Please enlighten me what's my narrative? 

History will prove MLF is a good coach and Hackett is garbage 

But OC does not get to make that decision it's a woody Joe Douglas level call 

It was the highest pick since Keyshawn no one cares what the OC thinks especially when they fire that guy every other year or more 

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1 minute ago, bitonti said:

Please enlighten me what's my narrative? 

History will prove MLF is a good coach and Hackett is garbage 

But OC does not get to make that decision it's a woody Joe Douglas level call 

It was the highest pick since Keyshawn no one cares what the OC thinks especially when they fire that guy every other year or more 

youre narrative is that Woody single handidly picked ZW becaue of Jet Blue, so MLF just went along with what Woody wanted.

Maybe MLF proves to be a good coach, but he was not ready to hand pick a QB, nor develop him

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6 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

youre narrative is that Woody single handidly picked ZW becaue of Jet Blue, so MLF just went along with what Woody wanted.

Maybe MLF proves to be a good coach, but he was not ready to hand pick a QB, nor develop him

That's one of my theories the other is that Joe Douglas is just bad at his job 

Why isn't Joe Douglas in this story? Like woody is talking to MLF every day? He probably couldn't pick him out of a lineup 

I'll say it again offensive coordinators don't get a vote on the 2 overall pick. It's all Joe and owners 

 

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25 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

I keep forgetting about Bieniemy.....always thought he should have gotten an HC shot by now just not sure it should be with us.....Woody interviewed him the last two HC searches

Looking at the work he's done with the Commanders Offense and specifically with Howell's development I think he's done well. Correct me if I'm wrong as I know you follow Washington much closer then any of us do. 

He also has a reputation for being a demanding, discipline coach and we know we could use some work in this area

He's a regular topic down here, absolutely.

To distill it down, alot of media folks seem to think he's been good(ish) and made improvements and is at least in part behind Howell's production (tempered by Howell, basically a rookie, leading the league in attempts and sacks and INT's!).  But he's also dinged because DC has no running game at all worth mentioning.

But they also compare this years overall Offensive production vs. last years under Scott Turner, and......it's basically within just a few yards of each other, or so they report on our local sports media (I didn't look up to verify, for what it's worth).

And local reporting says repeatedly that Beienemy has not "endeared himself to the players", i.e. code for 'the team hates him', lol.

The wildcard is new Ownership.  The feeling is they'll want to make a meaningful splash, get noticed, have both fans and the national media see they're not Snyder, and they're dedicated to winning football in DC.  No one seems to think that vibe results in.....firing everyone but promoting the O-Co when the points scoring didn't really improve vs. the guy the fired unceremoniously the year prior.

All that being said, I think he gets fired too and will be available.

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2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

That's one of my theories the other is that Joe Douglas is just bad at his job 

Why isn't Joe Douglas in this story? Like woody is talking to MLF every day? He probably couldn't pick him out of a lineup 

I'll say it again offensive coordinators don't get a vote on the 2 overall pick. It's all Joe and owners 

 

So youre saying the GM is picking a QB number 2 overall, without getitng serious buy in from the guy responsible for the offense? That seems really bad even for the Jets. 

Nonsense, if your OC is running the offense, which is what MLF was hired to do, they damn well better be getting  a say on the QB prospect. to ignore the guy running the offense with a pick like that is beyond incompetent, and by all accounts that is not what happened. There were 2 people who pushed hard for ZW, one scout, and MLF. There were other scouts who felt it would tkae years for ZW to be NFL ready and that he was too risky, but JD went with MLF and the scout on this

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13 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

So youre saying the GM is picking a QB number 2 overall, without getitng serious buy in from the guy responsible for the offense? That seems really bad even for the Jets. 

Nonsense, if your OC is running the offense, which is what MLF was hired to do, they damn well better be getting  a say on the QB prospect. to ignore the guy running the offense with a pick like that is beyond incompetent, and by all accounts that is not what happened. There were 2 people who pushed hard for ZW, one scout, and MLF. There were other scouts who felt it would tkae years for ZW to be NFL ready and that he was too risky, but JD went with MLF and the scout on this

Joe Douglas loved Zach first and then he went around the organization coercing people who work for him that it was the right call 

I'll agree MLF went from all out to all in on Zach very quickly but let's not pretend like Joe Douglas was on the fence about it

In fact they had no other options they were taking seriously 

Cimini wrote that article where he mentioned MLF endorsement it also mentioned that Joe Douglas fell in love with Zach in October 

Bottom line coaches are not scouts they don't really get a vote on draft day 

It's all Joe Douglas and trying to please his boss. Maybe jetblue had nothing to do with it (yeah right) but end of the day woody likes Zach as a person, the Johnsons and the neelemans are friendly and Joe Douglas is amazing at keeping woody happy 

The role MLF played in this decision was one part of it but the building was devided . There is a whole scouting department looking at Zach for months before anyone asked the coaches 

https://thejetpress.com/posts/ny-jets-draft-zach-wilson-mike-lafleur

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3 hours ago, 68JET11 said:

The problem isn't that a HC has a defensive background, it's that he's not the right person to have been hired. HC is supposed to think about the entire team and how to win, not just one side of the ball. 

Maybe.  The thing is I read one article that suggested the jets offense is so pitiful because saleh has decreed mistake free offense and that pretty much means runs and no deep passes.  If this is true then the jets to keep saleh as far away from the offense as possible and give the edict to score points.

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1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

actually, it was far worse. Saleh delegated all offense to his hand picked OC, MLF. MLF LOVED Zach, and pushed hard for him. This is why I don't understand at all how MLF or Saleh somehow get a pass for ZW. When you bring in bad coaches, you get bad QB's

What kind of ridiculousness is this?  I did read that LaFleur and Hogan (not Saleh) were the two that wanted Zach.  OTOH, LaFleur seemed pretty ready to bench Zach and move on.  He didn't seem married to him.  In what ******* Bizarro World did MLF "get a pass for ZW?"   The ******* guy was fired.  How much more accountability are you looking for?  Should have been tarred and feathered?  Drawn and quartered?

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44 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Joe Douglas loved Zach first and then he went around the organization coercing people who work for him that it was the right call 

I'll agree MLF went from all out to all in on Zach very quickly but let's not pretend like Joe Douglas was on the fence about it

In fact they had no other options they were taking seriously 

Cimini wrote that article where he mentioned MLF endorsement it also mentioned that Joe Douglas fell in love with Zach in October 

Bottom line coaches are not scouts they don't really get a vote on draft day 

It's all Joe Douglas and trying to please his boss. Maybe jetblue had nothing to do with it (yeah right) but end of the day woody likes Zach as a person, the Johnsons and the neelemans are friendly and Joe Douglas is amazing at keeping woody happy 

The role MLF played in this decision was one part of it but the building was devided . There is a whole scouting department looking at Zach for months before anyone asked the coaches 

https://thejetpress.com/posts/ny-jets-draft-zach-wilson-mike-lafleur

no matter how you slice it, it does not chnage the fundamental problem that we don't have coaches in place who can identify a QB that works for what they want to do. Until you have that, we will suck at QB. You can place blame wherever you want, JD hired terrible Saleh who hired terrible MLF, so I don't care who you blmae, but the problme is the same problem, get a good offensive coach who knows what they are doing with the QB, you will magically get a QB

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14 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

What kind of ridiculousness is this?  I did read that LaFleur and Hogan (not Saleh) were the two that wanted Zach.  OTOH, LaFleur seemed pretty ready to bench Zach and move on.  He didn't seem married to him.  In what ******* Bizarro World did MLF "get a pass for ZW?"   The ******* guy was fired.  How much more accountability are you looking for?  Should have been tarred and feathered?  Drawn and quartered?

You should stick to calling mutliple sb winning HC's blowhards, its a better fit for you. I am talking about this stupid fan base who thinks MLF got a raw deal for getting fired, when he was the one who wanted ZW in the first place. Im talking about this stupid fan base, which it is, really stupid

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1 minute ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

You should stick to calling mutliple sb winning HC's blowhards, its a better fit for you. I am talking about this stupid fan base who thinks MLF got a raw deal for getting fired, when he was the one who wanted ZW in the first place. Im talking about this stupid fan base, which it is, really stupid

I mean I think everyone involved with the Zach decision should have been fired 2 years ago 

MLF was a good start but the rot goes much deeper than the GM listening to some coordinator 

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59 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

You should stick to calling mutliple sb winning HC's blowhards, its a better fit for you. I am talking about this stupid fan base who thinks MLF got a raw deal for getting fired, when he was the one who wanted ZW in the first place. Im talking about this stupid fan base, which it is, really stupid

Why?  Everybody that picked the wrong QB should be vilified?  Kyle Shanahan picked Trey Lance.  Pete Carroll picked Matt Flynn.  The crime is not in trying with the wrong QB, it is sticking with them like grim death.

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It is well accepted that the most important player on an NFL team is the starting QB. It is a pretty short walk from that point to the realization that selecting a HC that best insures the success of your QB would 100% of the time be the best hire. I don't think that necessarily eliminates coaches that have come from the D side of the ball, but it does eliminate those without a plan for their QB to succeed.

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One of the thing that annoys me most about NFL conversations is the total lack of accountability for what each JOB is supposed to do and be responsible for.

A player busts?  Not the Coaches fault, not the GM's fault, maybe it's the Owners fault?

Yeah no.  The GM of an NFL Football Team IS the responsible party for selecting players, period.

If that GM lets himself get bullied by his owner for non-football reasons, he's a sh*t GM and gets what he deserves.

If that GM lets his Coaches sway him against his better judgement, again, he's a sh*t GM and gets what he deserves.

But he IS the responsible person, period.  All this muddying of the waters and fomenting confusion to this axe or that each person wants to grind just lets people off the hook.

Coaches Coach, if they coach badly or fail to manage their staff properly, they should be fired.

GM's pick the Head Coach and players.  Yes there is collaboration, but the GM is responsible.  if he picks bad coaches and players too often, he should be fired.

The Owner can't be fired, no matter how much he sucks.  But his only job is to hire the GM.  Will he want to get a say in on other things, absolutely, and a good GM will not roll over, and will show the Owner he's wrong.  

I just want the Jets (and Jet Fans) to start holding people accountable for the job they signed up to do, not keep giving people free passes because "meddling owner".

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16 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Why?  Everybody that picked the wrong QB should be vilified?  Kyle Shanahan picked Trey Lance.  Pete Carroll picked Matt Flynn.  The crime is not in trying with the wrong QB, it is sticking with them like grim death.

I love your binary world, must be nice. If the Jets had a QB that had them as a current SB favorite, nobody would be killing them right now about ZW. If Pete Carroll didnt win a SB with Rus Wilson, he would not have lived down matt Flynn. You can overcome mistakes when you are a good coach and have a good structure in place. When the Jets have a QB as a threat to win a SB under Saleh, JD, I will gladly forgive them for their mistakes. Until then, I am going to continue to say they have no clue on what they are doing, and are nto going to get it right next time. You think its all about luck, I don't, I don't think they know what they hell they are doing

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1 minute ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I love your binary world, must be nice. If the Jets had a QB that had them as a current SB favorite, nobody would be killing them right now about ZW. If Pete Carroll didnt win a SB with Rus Wilson, he would not have lived down matt Flynn. You can overcome mistakes when you are a good coach and have a good structure in place. When the Jets have a QB as a threat to win a SB under Saleh, JD, I will gladly forgive them for their mistakes. Until then, I am going to continue to say they have no clue on what they are doing, and are nto going to get it right next time. You think its all about luck, I don't, I don't think they know what they hell they are doing

Wasn’t that the whole point of getting Aaron Rodgers?

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