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Why are the Jets so bad at scouting for Offensive players compared to Defensive players?


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To be fair, becton, avt and tippman are all good players.  They do not suck.

garrett wilson and breece hall are good.

ruckert is probably good, he looks good when he is given a chance.

i suspect izzy would be good again, if given the chance.

maybe one of the young wrs can contribute, Gipson looked good this past week.

qb…..no qb….

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36 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

To be fair, becton, avt and tippman are all good players.  They do not suck.

garrett wilson and breece hall are good.

ruckert is probably good, he looks good when he is given a chance.

i suspect izzy would be good again, if given the chance.

maybe one of the young wrs can contribute, Gipson looked good this past week.

qb…..no qb….

yeah but just look at all of the waiver wire, UFA and FA on the D : Quincy Williams, Bryce Huff, JFM, Adams, CJ Reed, Jordan Whitehaed, Al Woods, Quinton Jefferson.   This is why the D is so good. They find players everywhere. Who are the UFA, FA and waiver wire pickups who hare making significant contributions on O?

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1 minute ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Because when the QB sucks, everything else goes down. 

It's not that simple. The QB is the most important piece but do you seriously believe the Jets have even average depth in all any of their O position groups. Heck, on D we started a game with the #4 and #5 CBs and they performed well. And the depth at D line is renown. How is the depth at WR? O line? RB? 

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9 minutes ago, Larz said:

I don’t think it’s scouting as much as coaching. Hackett is brutally predictable and it seems to me that Saleh has put strict emphasis on no picks so the offense becomes easy to defend. 
 

Kieth Carter also has a reputation for overworking the line to the point of injury, plus he blows as a coach

found the coaching angle interesting and noted back during hard knocks how young some of this staff is.

just looked up high level coaches of this team and the experience of the offense position coaches vs defense is close to 10 years less on offense.

Essentially kids coaching kids

could be a factor 

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26 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

It's not that simple. The QB is the most important piece but do you seriously believe the Jets have even average depth in all any of their O position groups. Heck, on D we started a game with the #4 and #5 CBs and they performed well. And the depth at D line is renown. How is the depth at WR? O line? RB? 

You're right it's not that simple.

The QB sucks and it drags everything else down. The offensive coordinator is in over his head. The WR corps sucks beyond G Wilson and I don't think the o-line depth was terrible but we were down to 5th and 6th string guys at one point. 

I didn't even watch the game this week aside from about the 4th quarter but I thought the return of Schweitzer and Becton would have made a big difference. 

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1 minute ago, JagsFanJif said:

What's bizarre about this phenomenon is, offense is so much easier to predict who's going to translate, sans the QB position whereas defense is much more challenging to know who's going to be able to guard some of the freakiest athletes in the world.

But douglas has drafted good offensive players.  Being objective, becton, tippman and avt are all good players.  Hall and garrett, good.  Izzy and ruckert, probably good.  

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2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

But douglas has drafted good offensive players.  Being objective, becton, tippman and avt are all good players.  Hall and garrett, good.  Izzy and ruckert, probably good.  

I'm gunna be honest, I didnt read the thread.  I thought maybe this was talking about the Jets, historically. 

Now reading it now...

lol

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The bottom line is it's about the QB and offensive leadership. The QB position is the one position in football that can either make everybody on offense better or worse. When you're at the bottom of the league in QB play, it's going to resonate through every single position on the offense. When those people are not only bad, but non-existent in the leadership department? Well.... watch the Jets offense play football.

On defense, there's elite talent + leadership all over the field. It's almost a self-sustaining entity at this point. The offense isn't anywhere near there at this point, especially given the health issues they've had.

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for me the majority of the issue is coaching. Summary it is poor.

There are spots that you can look at as functional for the nfl and certainly the defense for the most part is good to very good  but

The ongoing penalties

breakdowns although again to be fair less on defense

inability to remotely work with talent on offense and do the minimum

Sure the QB is a major part but who was the QB for the Bengals last night? Prior to last night could you make the argument that in a conversation he would be right there with Simien?

Speaking of Simien, he has experience and has functioned at a minimal nfl level before yet looks like a high school QB when compared in an eye test to Tommy Devito?

im with most of you that more than likely they are running this back next year - but for someone like me who is not exaclty the smartest tack in the room - the majority of the issues leis with the coaching staff - and that does not let jd off the hook 

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28 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You're right it's not that simple.

The QB sucks and it drags everything else down. The offensive coordinator is in over his head. The WR corps sucks beyond G Wilson and I don't think the o-line depth was terrible but we were down to 5th and 6th string guys at one point. 

I didn't even watch the game this week aside from about the 4th quarter but I thought the return of Schweitzer and Becton would have made a big difference. 

The single scapegoat just doesn’t fit with what we are seeing from the offense as a whole 

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1. I think the offensive talent on the team, when healthy, isn't that bad. I think QB play and scheme undermine everything else. New coach and new QB and things could look much better relatively quickly.

2. In general offense is more coaching and intangible based. It's why in college recruiting rankings on defense are often very tied to defensive production but a good OC can get a productive offense with a bunch of three stars. You need the jimmy's and joes to play defense so drafting freak athletes with good attitudes will serve you well. Offense there are just more x-factors. Mental makeup, clutchness, technique, etc. all matter more on offense vs. defense which tends to be more "read and react" know your assignments and fly to the ball.

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Bob Saleh deserves all the credit lol.
kidding.. 

This is an offense driven league. It favors the offense in many increasingly ways. You can’t touch the qb, tackle hard, etc. The old days guys like LT could easily end guys careers. Now LT would be charged with a felony for normal hits then. Jets and JD are still stuck in the world of “ best player available.” While most teams are stacking up on offense, reaching for guys in draft, FA, etc. Jets feel like they when the lotto when a D player falls to them in draft. Player is cut, they jump on him. CJ Mosley is another example. Great player but lot of teams would say “ I can sign a very good Olineman for same price.” Will McDonald pick just highlights how archaic Joe D and jets are. Coming off a yr where D was extremely dominant and your O suckked balls. Your first round pick has to be offense, to help your win now qb you just acquired. But only a Joe D move would be to select a DL for depth🙈 the biggest position of strength coming into yr. No other team in same situation is drafting Will McDonald, that is a guarantee. 

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quick take from yest on FAN. the darnold/gase era literally doubled the productivity of 2023 team
in red zone and 3rd down conversions with literally (again) half the talent.
they read off the roster of the 2020 O, it was like dollar general level goods.

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1 hour ago, Plen T said:

They have good enough players to not be the worst offensive team in the last 20 years

the problem is the coach 

 

not that I'm excusing the coaching 

but when people blame the coaches what they are really doing is excusing Zach for being terrible 

The coaches only cook the meal, the GM buys the groceries 

and he took two really big swings at the most important position in team sports, and missed both times

the idea that a better coach would have developed Zach or made Aaron Rodgers less old and washed is wishful thinking straight out of Salt Lake City

again not saying the Jets coaches are any great shakes but Bill Walsh himself couldn't develop Zach 

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5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

not that I'm excusing the coaching 

but when people blame the coaches what they are really doing is excusing Zach for being terrible 

The coaches only cook the meal, the GM buys the groceries 

and he took two really big swings at the most important position in team sports, and missed both times

the idea that a better coach would have developed Zach or made Aaron Rodgers less old and washed is wishful thinking straight out of Salt Lake City

again not saying the Jets coaches are any great shakes but Bill Walsh himself couldn't develop Zach 

So you think that the Jets only suck with Zach playing? I'm not going to act like the offense is much better with Zach playing, but it hasn't changed no matter what QB has played this season. Saying Saleh has an undisciplined team and is awful at clock management has nothing to do with Zach. This team has a relatively strong group of O players, as highlighted above. And yes, Zach was definitely making life worse for the offense. But there is not another QB who is better and it's clear that the offense is just garbage despite the presence of some good players.

Pinning this whole disaster on Zach at this point is foolish. Yes, he was a huge part of the problem, but Saleh is the other huge part.

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I think its a combination of coaching/player development being much stronger on the defensive side + a few big whiffs on offense that have really set the offense back. 

If you look at JDs drafts he really only has drafted two total busts on offense with early picks - Zach and Mims. 

Both of those players were extremely raw (Wilson probably more than the organization realized) - and actually regressed over the years. Mims was drafted into a different regime so maybe you can look at that one slightly differently - but as a rookie his 16 game pace was ~650 yards playing with Adam Gase + Sam Darnold. Thats not terrible for a rookie by any means. 

Zach we don't need to belabor - it is what it is. 

Becton and AVT have both flashed talent but IMO neither has improved much and also can't stay healthy. Elijah Moore is probably about what you'd expect for a 34th overall WR. Not a bust - but more of a WR3. Michael Carter the same is true - hes not a bust - probably about average level production for a 4th round RB. Both Moore and Carter showed legit promise as rookies - and both probably were best as a rookie and have since regressed. 

They have gotten nothing out of their mid round picks - maybe Ruckert can save them. Perine was a bust but whatever, Cam Clark was injured, Morgan was a bust, etc. They just seem to take a lot more swings at defensive players in later rounds. Guys like Bryce Hall, Sherwood, MCII, Pinnock, Echols, Clemons have all proved to be competent role players. Thats six players compared to maybe one on offense. Plus you have Bryce Huff as a UDFA. 

No one on offense that comes here improves. The free agent signings are the same as the draft for the most part. DJ Reed is a massive hit, Whitehead is a fine safety, Rankins was a good signing, etc. 

On offense the big signings were Davis (disappointment), Laken (massive bust), CMG (sucks), Lazard (sucks), CJ Uzomah (sucks), Conklin (fine), Cook (sucks), Duane Brown (sucks), etc. The only good FA OL they brought in was Morgan Moses and they let him walk. 

It just seems that there is a really good plan on defense. They draft guys, they develop them, and they don't have too many misses. On offense it just seems that they throw sh*t against the wall and hope something sticks. 

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1 minute ago, Hex said:

So you think that the Jets only suck with Zach playing? I'm not going to act like the offense is much better with Zach playing, but it hasn't changed no matter what QB has played this season.

Have you considered the reason for that may be that:

1. Zach sucks, one of the worst performing QB's ever, a top 10 all-time QB bust.

2. Boyle isn't even a legit NFL #3 QB, he doesn't belong in the league at all.

3. Siemian is a washed up journeyman backup with limited skills who hasn't been any good at all in several years.

i.e. expecting the team to "do better" when all three QB's on the roster are fringe trash guys who may not deserve being in the league at all, is an odd expectation.

JD failed to provide even legit backup level talent at QB for this team in 2023.

1 minute ago, Hex said:

Pinning this whole disaster on Zach at this point is foolish. Yes, he was a huge part of the problem, but Saleh is the other huge part.

As many of us have been saying for a long while now, two things can be true at once:

1. Zach Wilson is a horrible QB and we'll be better by subtraction when he's cut loose.

2. Saleh (and Hackett) have failed as Coaches to do anything with our Offense in 2023.

But it all starts with Zach.  The most important and vital position on an NFL field, and our guy is trash, as are his backups.  

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1 hour ago, Larz said:

I don’t think it’s scouting as much as coaching. Hackett is brutally predictable and it seems to me that Saleh has put strict emphasis on no picks so the offense becomes easy to defend. 
 

Kieth Carter also has a reputation for overworking the line to the point of injury, plus he blows as a coach

The Carter hire was a complete disaster at the time to anyone who was paying attention. Woody, Saleh and JD weren't. They got who they are capable of getting.

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2 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

To be fair, becton, avt and tippman are all good players.  They do not suck.

garrett wilson and breece hall are good.

ruckert is probably good, he looks good when he is given a chance.

i suspect izzy would be good again, if given the chance.

maybe one of the young wrs can contribute, Gipson looked good this past week.

qb…..no qb….

Some misses at WR.

Too many injuries at line.  Becton. Maybe, but no one could have predicted AVTs injuries.

Ruckert does seem to get a lot of penalties

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13 minutes ago, Plen T said:

They have good enough players to not be the worst offensive team in the last 20 years

the problem is the coach 

 

The problem is the QB. The OC. And injuries on the O-line.

HOWEVER - 

-Granted the QB was a big whiff by JD in the draft. But he got Aaron frickin' Rodgers. Unfortunately, the guy got hurt. TBD on how that works out, he may ball out next year. Even as a 40yr old. If there is ONE guy I'm not writing off, its Rodgers. 

-Injuries on the O-line. Not sure what you can do about that as a GM. NONE of the guys he drafted had a history of injuries. Except Carter Warren, who happens to be healthy now.

-OC: Hackett is not good. But he was brought in here for one reason and one reason only. To lure Rodgers to NY and to play WITH Rodgers. Not develop Zack or be some offensive genius.      

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17 minutes ago, Hex said:

So you think that the Jets only suck with Zach playing?

No they also suck with Tim Boyle who honestly shouldn't be a QB2 or QB3 in the NFL at all and Trevor Siemen who was a street free agent until the Jets called. Zach isn't the cause of all the Jets problems but he's the only one who can fix them.   

17 minutes ago, Hex said:

Saying Saleh has an undisciplined team and is awful at clock management has nothing to do with Zach. This team has a relatively strong group of O players, as highlighted above. And yes, Zach was definitely making life worse for the offense.

First off I don't think Saleh is bad at clock management. He wins his challenges. He wants to suck the life out of the game and that's a different issue. Relating back to his terrible QB

Also penalties, while inconvenient, are not a death blow for other teams. The KCC and LAR were among the league's most penalized groups the year they won their SB. They just had offenses that could overcome the penalties. 

The defensive penalties are often roughing, personal foul type stuff which is the sign of an aggressive group pressing hard because they know they can't give up ANY points and have a chance to win the game. It's not a good place to be for any defense.

Finally the offensive penalties certainly relate back to uncertainty at QB. Dead ball fouls, the groundings, the ineligible downfield that all relates to execution or lack thereof. Again I'm not saying Zach is their only problem (the OL is also a wasteland) but QB1 is the most important player in team sport and having a calm and steady presence eliminates penalties 

or ya know just have a functional offense that can convert on third down. 

17 minutes ago, Hex said:

But there is not another QB who is better 

yes because Joe Douglas built the worst QB room in the league since he's arrived and Zach is a huge part of that 

It's not all Zach. Aaron Rodgers for example is a worthless old man. James "Captain" Morgan was a waste of a pick. They found Mike White, then let him go to a division rival. JD has drafted no competition for Zach. It's not all Zach but he's a historic level bust and there aren't many coaches who can scheme their way out of that hellscape 

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