Rick Gosselin's first mock of the season

[stormshadow19]

Generally considered the best draft guru in all the land...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/nfl/draft/stories/041606dnsponflmockdraft.1e330dc.html

Jets take Mario Williams and Kamerion Wimbley. I understand that Wimbley is like a hybrid OLB/DE, but if you take Williams, why take another? I mean, depth is great and all, but the Jets don't have that kind of luxury to do that, especially if they're considering turning Bryan Thomas into what he was drafted to do.

Though, I do agree with him about NO taking a QB. Why? Drew Brees, essentially, signed a one year deal. It's an easy out after this season. It's more likely than them taking a DE, anyway.

[Savage69]

Generally considered the best draft guru in all the land...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/nfl/draft/stories/041606dnsponflmockdraft.1e330dc.html

Jets take Mario Williams and Kamerion Wimbley. I understand that Wimbley is like a hybrid OLB/DE, but if you take Williams, why take another? I mean, depth is great and all, but the Jets don't have that kind of luxury to do that, especially if they're considering turning Bryan Thomas into what he was drafted to do.

Though, I do agree with him about NO taking a QB. Why? Drew Brees, essentially, signed a one year deal. It's an easy out after this season. It's more likely than them taking a DE, anyway.

2 DE's in the first round?? Share the Drugs!!

[madmike1]

For "the best draft guru" thats an AWFUL mock draft.

[F Miami]

This guy is considered one of the best draft guys around? That's just an awful draft. Probably the worst I've seen.

[Maynardrules#13]

Generally considered the best draft guru in all the land...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/nfl/draft/stories/041606dnsponflmockdraft.1e330dc.html

Jets take Mario Williams and Kamerion Wimbley. I understand that Wimbley is like a hybrid OLB/DE, but if you take Williams, why take another? I mean, depth is great and all, but the Jets don't have that kind of luxury to do that, especially if they're considering turning Bryan Thomas into what he was drafted to do.

Though, I do agree with him about NO taking a QB. Why? Drew Brees, essentially, signed a one year deal. It's an easy out after this season. It's more likely than them taking a DE, anyway.

That was a pretty bad mock draft. And this guy is supposed to be a draft guru.

[RichardSeymour]

Generally considered the best draft guru in all the land...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/nfl/draft/stories/041606dnsponflmockdraft.1e330dc.html

Jets take Mario Williams and Kamerion Wimbley. I understand that Wimbley is like a hybrid OLB/DE, but if you take Williams, why take another? I mean, depth is great and all, but the Jets don't have that kind of luxury to do that, especially if they're considering turning Bryan Thomas into what he was drafted to do.

Though, I do agree with him about NO taking a QB. Why? Drew Brees, essentially, signed a one year deal. It's an easy out after this season. It's more likely than them taking a DE, anyway.

Because Wimbley doesn't play DE for you, he plays OLB, and Williams doesn't play OLB, he plays DE. Two different areas of need--- and significant need.

Don't go excessive in reasoning that you're playing a 4-3/3-4 hybrid---- that's true, but the 4-3 is going to just be the 3-4 with one of your OLBs come up to the LoS and put a hand down.

In your 3-4 you might look like this:

Williams---D-Rob---Ellis

and in your 4-3, you might look like this

Wimbley---Williams---D-Rob---Ellis

A Williams/Wimbley doubledip makes plenty of sense--- Mangini is going to want to build from the front 7 out. You could badly use upgrades at both OLB and at DE/DT (your DEs from now on are going to be 280 lbs if they're anorexic. You're going to tend to look at DTs for the DE slot, and pretty much any DE in the 260-290 lb range who can't convert to OLB and potentially drop into coverage isn't going to fit your system).

The phrase DE/OLB hybrid is misleading, because it makes you think you may be drafting Wimbley to play both. You won't be doing so. You'll be drafting him as a linebacker and who can move up and put a hand down on the line, a la Mike Vrabel, but you're not going to be lining up in a 4-3 defense as it's been traditionally run in NY with Wimbley at DE.

Bryan Thomas looks like an ugly fit for a Belichick defense--- way too light to play on the line, too slow (I think) to play OLB. He's probably limited to 3rd down rusher if Mangini is building a Belichickian defense.

[stormshadow19]

Because Wimbley doesn't play DE for you, he plays OLB, and Williams doesn't play OLB, he plays DE. Two different areas of need--- and significant need.

Don't go excessive in reasoning that you're playing a 4-3/3-4 hybrid---- that's true, but the 4-3 is going to just be the 3-4 with one of your OLBs come up to the LoS and put a hand down.

In your 3-4 you might look like this:

Williams---D-Rob---Ellis

and in your 4-3, you might look like this

Wimbley---Williams---D-Rob---Ellis

A Williams/Wimbley doubledip makes plenty of sense--- Mangini is going to want to build from the front 7 out. You could badly use upgrades at both OLB and at DE/DT (your DEs from now on are going to be 280 lbs if they're anorexic. You're going to tend to look at DTs for the DE slot, and pretty much any DE in the 260-290 lb range who can't convert to OLB and potentially drop into coverage isn't going to fit your system).

The phrase DE/OLB hybrid is misleading, because it makes you think you may be drafting Wimbley to play both. You won't be doing so. You'll be drafting him as a linebacker and who can move up and put a hand down on the line, a la Mike Vrabel, but you're not going to be lining up in a 4-3 defense as it's been traditionally run in NY with Wimbley at DE.

Bryan Thomas looks like an ugly fit for a Belichick defense--- way too light to play on the line, too slow (I think) to play OLB. He's probably limited to 3rd down rusher if Mangini is building a Belichickian defense.

Thomas wasn't slow, coming out of college. If I remember right. And, like I said, I recognize that Wimbley is a hybrid. I just don't see the need. And I really don't see moving Williams inside to a tackle position, either. I mean, look at it from this point of view: the Jets have tried this twice with in the past five seasons. Twice it didn't work. And Williams isn't much of a run stopper/blocker absorber. His main talent is getting to the QB. And he's damn good at doing that. Why anyone would mess with that is beyond me.

I'm just saying, if the Jets take a DE at 4, they wouldn't at 29.

[RichardSeymour]

Thomas wasn't slow, coming out of college. If I remember right. And, like I said, I recognize that Wimbley is a hybrid. I just don't see the need. And I really don't see moving Williams inside to a tackle position, either. I mean, look at it from this point of view: the Jets have tried this twice with in the past five seasons. Twice it didn't work. And Williams isn't much of a run stopper/blocker absorber. His main talent is getting to the QB. And he's damn good at doing that. Why anyone would mess with that is beyond me.

I'm just saying, if the Jets take a DE at 4, they wouldn't at 29.

You're not moving him inside to the tackle position when you go to the 4-3-- he's already there in the 3-4.

The 3-4 DE is an interior lineman in the Belichick system. If Williams can't block the run, can't handle double teams without being pushed back, can't play 2-gap, then you don't want him.

If you draft Broderick Bunkley, you are liable to play him at DE. You're looking for Marcus Stroud at DE, not Julius Peppers.

In Gosselin's scenario the Jets are not taking a DE at 29. Period. End of story. Wimbley is not a DE for you. He is an OLB. He is ONLY an OLB. If Mangini is running a Belichickian defense, get it out of your head that he would EVER play DE for you. He may play OLB-with-a-hand-down, but that is not going to be DE in the sense that you're thinking.

As for not seeing the need, who are your two OLBs right now? You're looking for OLBs who can cover, rush the passer well, AND take on blocks and shed. That's a lot to ask.

[RichardSeymour]

At least as the Patriots have run it, I've always felt that a more accurate description of the 3-4 defense would be....

OLB/DE--ILB--ILB---OLB/DE

..........DT--NT--DT..........

And when you move to a 4-3, it's mostly going to be....

OLB/DE--ILB--ILB

..........DT--NT--DT--OLB/DE

Except on 3rd downs.

Keep in mind, the weights of a typical Pats "4-3" look something like....

307--310--325--290

(That's Warren-Seymour-Wilfork-Green)

When Vrabel or McGinest come up and put their hand down, the most accurate way to think of things is not as if they're playing a normal 4-3, it's more of a twist on the 3-4.

Wimbley is not a DE in Belichickian system. At all. No one under 275 is (and anyone at 275-285 is going to be expected to bulk up).

I say all this assuming that Mangini is going to build a Patriots style defense. If in the LONG TERM he plans to depart significantly from the scheme we used in New England, most of what I say is much more questionable.

You could do worse than to think of weight as an increasingly important rule of thumb-- you will NOT be drafting Linebackers unless they can play at 250, and closer to 260 is better. You will NOT be drafting "defensive ends" unless they can play at 290, and over 300 is better.

I don't care what label Wimbley has, what they're calling him. To a Belichick system he is an OLB, or he is not drafted. As an OLB he will be asked to sometimes put his hand in the mud, but even then he is 3-4 OLB with his hand down, not a 4-3 DE in most senses of the word.

Likewise, Williams may be a "DE", but unless he can play OLB, in a NE style system he is an interior lineman whose first, second, and third jobs have nothing to do with rushing the QB. If he can't be a great 2 gap interior lineman or an OLB, you don't draft him, unless he's so great that he's worth changing your entire defense for him.

[RichardSeymour]

Keep in mind that in 2001 when the Pats DID run a 4-3, their defensive ends were 285 lb. Bobby Hamilton and 280 lb. Anthony Pleasant.

Kamerion Wimbley is 241 lbs.

Once you draft him, he is not a hybrid.

[Jetlag]

Why have Pats fans been making too much sense lately? Is there something wrong with me?

[Xcel2NuFX]

Keep in mind that in 2001 when the Pats DID run a 4-3, their defensive ends were 285 lb. Bobby Hamilton and 280 lb. Anthony Pleasant.

Kamerion Wimbley is 241 lbs.

Once you draft him, he is not a hybrid.

Personally I like this mock for us... I think Wimbley could be a Shawn Merriman type of pass rushing OLB.

[stormshadow19]

Keep in mind that in 2001 when the Pats DID run a 4-3, their defensive ends were 285 lb. Bobby Hamilton and 280 lb. Anthony Pleasant.

Kamerion Wimbley is 241 lbs.

Once you draft him, he is not a hybrid.

Yeah, I'm aware. I just don't know if it's a position of need. That's my point. There's other positions that the Jets need to fill. That and I'm not totally sure Wimbley is going to be there at 29, anyway.

[jetsman1]

Why have Pats fans been making too much sense lately? Is there something wrong with me?

Probably because they are finally talking about something they may actually know something about(Belichick's defense).Usually they are making assumptions about our team(something they don't know much about) and that's why they are so off base most of the time.

[Savage69]

Why have Pats fans been making too much sense lately? Is there something wrong with me?

Lag your going through Hermie BBQ withdrawal...They always did make sense that's why they won 3 Bowls while your were playing with that weird Rabbit!

[Darth Vader]

2 DE's in the first round?? Share the Drugs!!

Wimbley is not going to be playing DE in a 3-4. He would be the perfect pass-rushing OLB ala LT.

MW is not the ideal 3-4 DE, but regardless, this should be seen as a DE and an OLB.

[Bugg]

BAP is all fine and good, but the Jets have 2 1st rounders out of 3 starters on the DL already while their OL might get a QB or RB killed. If this is the best draft guy, then they all must suck.

[NJ]

Yeah - lets shore up the D with our first couple picks. They'll need to be young and strong cause they're going to be on the field 95% of the game.

[PeterNorth09]

Yeah - lets shore up the D with our first couple picks. They'll need to be young and strong cause they're going to be on the field 95% of the game.

LOL. Why don't we just draft defensive players and have them start lining up at the Offensive Positions? Vilma at qb, Robertson at RT, Justin Miller at Wr.

If the Jets have a stupid draft like that they might as well play Ironman.

[PeterNorth09]

Yeah - lets shore up the D with our first couple picks. They'll need to be young and strong cause they're going to be on the field 95% of the game.

LOL. Why don't we just draft defensive players and have them start lining up at the Offensive Positions? Vilma at qb, Robertson at RT, Justin Miller at Wr.

If the Jets have a stupid draft like that they might as well play Ironman.

[RichardSeymour]

BAP is all fine and good, but the Jets have 2 1st rounders out of 3 starters on the DL already while their OL might get a QB or RB killed. If this is the best draft guy, then they all must suck.

Again, I think this is perfectly sensible, particularly since you still have a 2nd and two 3rds to go chase O-linemen.

Here's a scenario which uses Gosselin's picks for the Jets 1st round, and players available in GJs mock at the appropriate pick for the rest of the first four rounds.

4. DE Mario Williams

29. OLB Kamerion Wimbley

35. OG Max Jean Gilles

71. OT Jeremy Trueblood (you have to move up one slot in Ham's mock, but screw it, I like the guy, and it'd cost you a 5th.)

97. C/G Chris Chester

103. CB DeMario Minter

117. WR Greg Jennings

Is that a huge problem? Does that draft suck? The Jets are in the enviable position of NOT having to worry about addressing their BIGGEST need (OL) in round one. They can go for front 7 guys (and believe me, Mangini is going to pour money and picks into your front 7 like crazy) in round one and STILL potentially walk plausibly walk out of the first four rounds with the highest rated guard in the draft, another solid C/G prospect, a perfectly adequate OT pick, and STILL have two extra picks to address other areas like WR and CB.

The Pats had a screaming OL need before 2001. They added two free agents and a 2nd round left tackle and did passably. Not saying that you can count on doing the same, but not drafting an OL in the 1st round is hardly going to leave you guys up a creek without a paddle.

***

And btw, he hasn't chimed in but I am SURE that Hammer doesn't think Goss is crazy-- GJ&H has Williams to the Jets at 4 (though I disagree slightly with the particular way he characterizes Belichick's defense) and Wimbley to the (Belichickian) Browns at 12. Here's what he says on Wimbley:

Wimbley should carry a rock solid TOP 15 Grade on any teams board that runs a 34 defense. This kid is a terrific football player who can easily be an "IMPACT PLAYER" in the 34, and if that doesn't qualify as Good Value at #12 I don't know what does?

[RichardSeymour]

BAP is all fine and good, but the Jets have 2 1st rounders out of 3 starters on the DL already while their OL might get a QB or RB killed. If this is the best draft guy, then they all must suck.

Again, I think this is perfectly sensible, particularly since you still have a 2nd and two 3rds to go chase O-linemen.

Here's a scenario which uses Gosselin's picks for the Jets 1st round, and players available in GJs mock at the appropriate pick for the rest of the first four rounds.

4. DE Mario Williams

29. OLB Kamerion Wimbley

35. OG Max Jean Gilles

71. OT Jeremy Trueblood (you have to move up one slot in Ham's mock, but screw it, I like the guy, and it'd cost you a 5th.)

97. C/G Chris Chester

103. CB DeMario Minter

117. WR Greg Jennings

Is that a huge problem? Does that draft suck? The Jets are in the enviable position of NOT having to worry about addressing their BIGGEST need (OL) in round one. They can go for front 7 guys (and believe me, Mangini is going to pour money and picks into your front 7 like crazy) in round one and STILL potentially walk plausibly walk out of the first four rounds with the highest rated guard in the draft, another solid C/G prospect, a perfectly adequate OT pick, and STILL have two extra picks to address other areas like WR and CB.

The Pats had a screaming OL need before 2001. They added two free agents and a 2nd round left tackle and did passably. Not saying that you can count on doing the same, but not drafting an OL in the 1st round is hardly going to leave you guys up a creek without a paddle.

***

And btw, he hasn't chimed in but I am SURE that Hammer doesn't think Goss is crazy-- GJ&H has Williams to the Jets at 4 (though I disagree slightly with the particular way he characterizes Belichick's defense) and Wimbley to the (Belichickian) Browns at 12. Here's what he says on Wimbley:

Wimbley should carry a rock solid TOP 15 Grade on any teams board that runs a 34 defense. This kid is a terrific football player who can easily be an "IMPACT PLAYER" in the 34, and if that doesn't qualify as Good Value at #12 I don't know what does?

[stormshadow19]

Again, I think this is perfectly sensible, particularly since you still have a 2nd and two 3rds to go chase O-linemen.

Here's a scenario which uses Gosselin's picks for the Jets 1st round, and players available in GJs mock at the appropriate pick for the rest of the first four rounds.

4. DE Mario Williams

29. OLB Kamerion Wimbley

35. OG Max Jean Gilles

71. OT Jeremy Trueblood (you have to move up one slot in Ham's mock, but screw it, I like the guy, and it'd cost you a 5th.)

97. C/G Chris Chester

103. CB DeMario Minter

117. WR Greg Jennings

Is that a huge problem? Does that draft suck? The Jets are in the enviable position of NOT having to worry about addressing their BIGGEST need (OL) in round one. They can go for front 7 guys (and believe me, Mangini is going to pour money and picks into your front 7 like crazy) in round one and STILL potentially walk plausibly walk out of the first four rounds with the highest rated guard in the draft, another solid C/G prospect, a perfectly adequate OT pick, and STILL have two extra picks to address other areas like WR and CB.

The Pats had a screaming OL need before 2001. They added two free agents and a 2nd round left tackle and did passably. Not saying that you can count on doing the same, but not drafting an OL in the 1st round is hardly going to leave you guys up a creek without a paddle.

***

And btw, he hasn't chimed in but I am SURE that Hammer doesn't think Goss is crazy-- GJ&H has Williams to the Jets at 4 (though I disagree slightly with the particular way he characterizes Belichick's defense) and Wimbley to the (Belichickian) Browns at 12. Here's what he says on Wimbley:

Don't get me wrong. It's not a bad draft, not in the least. And, I'm aware that Wimbley would be an OLB for the Jets. I'm just kinda shocked that both firsts were used on defense, is all. But hey, I'm all for loading up an area.

[stormshadow19]

Again, I think this is perfectly sensible, particularly since you still have a 2nd and two 3rds to go chase O-linemen.

Here's a scenario which uses Gosselin's picks for the Jets 1st round, and players available in GJs mock at the appropriate pick for the rest of the first four rounds.

4. DE Mario Williams

29. OLB Kamerion Wimbley

35. OG Max Jean Gilles

71. OT Jeremy Trueblood (you have to move up one slot in Ham's mock, but screw it, I like the guy, and it'd cost you a 5th.)

97. C/G Chris Chester

103. CB DeMario Minter

117. WR Greg Jennings

Is that a huge problem? Does that draft suck? The Jets are in the enviable position of NOT having to worry about addressing their BIGGEST need (OL) in round one. They can go for front 7 guys (and believe me, Mangini is going to pour money and picks into your front 7 like crazy) in round one and STILL potentially walk plausibly walk out of the first four rounds with the highest rated guard in the draft, another solid C/G prospect, a perfectly adequate OT pick, and STILL have two extra picks to address other areas like WR and CB.

The Pats had a screaming OL need before 2001. They added two free agents and a 2nd round left tackle and did passably. Not saying that you can count on doing the same, but not drafting an OL in the 1st round is hardly going to leave you guys up a creek without a paddle.

***

And btw, he hasn't chimed in but I am SURE that Hammer doesn't think Goss is crazy-- GJ&H has Williams to the Jets at 4 (though I disagree slightly with the particular way he characterizes Belichick's defense) and Wimbley to the (Belichickian) Browns at 12. Here's what he says on Wimbley:

Don't get me wrong. It's not a bad draft, not in the least. And, I'm aware that Wimbley would be an OLB for the Jets. I'm just kinda shocked that both firsts were used on defense, is all. But hey, I'm all for loading up an area.