Weights in the Front 7 of the Belichick Defense

[RichardSeymour]

Tell me if you see a pattern....

365 lbs -- NT Ted Washington

337 lbs -- NT Keith Traylor

325 lbs -- NT Vince Wilfork

310 lbs -- DE Richard Seymour

307 lbs -- DE Ty Warren

300 lbs -- DE Marquise Hill

290 lbs -- DT Brandon Mitchell

290 lbs -- DE Jarvis Green

285 lbs -- DE Bobby Hamilton

280 lbs -- DE Anthony Pleasant

270 lbs -- OLB Willie McGinest

261 lbs -- OLB Mike Vrabel

259 lbs -- ILB Ryan Claridge

250 lbs -- OLB Rosevelt Colvin

248 lbs -- ILB Roman Phifer

247 lbs -- ILB Tedy Bruschi

I believe Bruschi and Phifer's weights have both dropped a bit--- both guys were over 250 in the not too distant past. Colvins has risen since they signed him.... he was at 238 or 240 and one article even claimed that "he didn't weight that soaking wet", and now he's at 250, and looks it. Weight is not an absolute limit on who NE brings in, but they don't bring a guy in as a starter unless they feel he can bulk up to the desired weight.

If Mangini intends to build his defense the way Belichick did, you will not be drafting LBs unless they can play at or near 250 lbs. You will not be drafting "DEs" unless they can play at or near 280, and you'll usually be looking for ~300 if you're running a 3-4.

Shaun Ellis is undersized as a 3-4 DE in the Patriots system. Keep this in mind.

[Xcel2NuFX]

Ellis is in the 285-290 area isn't he? I mean I think he is plenty big and powerful to play DE in the 3-4 but its definetly a good thing we got rid of Abe cause he was way too small and couldn't play the run at all. That kind of player definetly doesn't work in a team oriented defensive scheme

[Jetlag]

Ellis is in the 285-290 area isn't he?

That's what nfl.com has him at. I think RS is trying to point out that Mario Williams may be a better fit for our 3-4 scheme than what "experts" are claiming. Or did I just pull that out of leftfield.

[shutout]

Ellis did just fine in the 3-4 his rookie year. If he doesn't do good in it again,it won't be because he's undersized...it'll be because he got his fat contract and became complacent.

[PatsFanTX]

If Mangini intends to build his defense the way Belichick did, you will not be drafting LBs unless they can play at or near 250 lbs.

Sounds like Vilma will fit right in.

[Xcel2NuFX]

Sounds like Vilma will fit right in.

I'm pretty sure if any coach doesn't like Vilma they shouldn't have a job in the NFL

[PatsFanTX]

I'm pretty sure if any coach doesn't like Vilma they shouldn't have a job in the NFL

Vilma is not the prototype 3-4 LB.

That's not a knock on his abilities, but RS did a nice job explaining the size issue/importance for 3-4 LB's.

Two things will work against Vilma in a 3-4.

First, he will have more OLinemen on him than he has ever seen.

Second, he will have "area" responsibilities and will not be free to run sideline to sideline as he was able to do in the 4-3.

[stormshadow19]

Tell me if you see a pattern....

365 lbs -- NT Ted Washington

337 lbs -- NT Keith Traylor

325 lbs -- NT Vince Wilfork

310 lbs -- DE Richard Seymour

307 lbs -- DE Ty Warren

300 lbs -- DE Marquise Hill

290 lbs -- DT Brandon Mitchell

290 lbs -- DE Jarvis Green

285 lbs -- DE Bobby Hamilton

280 lbs -- DE Anthony Pleasant

270 lbs -- OLB Willie McGinest

261 lbs -- OLB Mike Vrabel

259 lbs -- ILB Ryan Claridge

250 lbs -- OLB Rosevelt Colvin

248 lbs -- ILB Roman Phifer

247 lbs -- ILB Tedy Bruschi

I believe Bruschi and Phifer's weights have both dropped a bit--- both guys were over 250 in the not too distant past. Colvins has risen since they signed him.... he was at 238 or 240 and one article even claimed that "he didn't weight that soaking wet", and now he's at 250, and looks it. Weight is not an absolute limit on who NE brings in, but they don't bring a guy in as a starter unless they feel he can bulk up to the desired weight.

If Mangini intends to build his defense the way Belichick did, you will not be drafting LBs unless they can play at or near 250 lbs. You will not be drafting "DEs" unless they can play at or near 280, and you'll usually be looking for ~300 if you're running a 3-4.

Shaun Ellis is undersized as a 3-4 DE in the Patriots system. Keep this in mind.

All this is true. But, Mangini may not play the same exact 3-4. Or even a 3-4 at all. I don't think we'll find out what they're doing until they start training camp. Everyone just assumes they're going to run a 3-4 and try to fit square pegs into round holes. The Jets don't exactly have the right personel to run a 3-4, at the moment. Yes, the did acquire pieces to do so, but the people they did get aren't "full" time players. They all play a role. Hopefully, they get guys who are flexible and can play in whatever.

[RSJ]

Vilma is not the prototype 3-4 LB.

That's not a knock on his abilities, but RS did a nice job explaining the size issue/importance for 3-4 LB's.

Two things will work against Vilma in a 3-4.

First, he will have more OLinemen on him than he has ever seen.

Second, he will have "area" responsibilities and will not be free to run sideline to sideline as he was able to do in the 4-3.

Vilma is not to prototype. nor the desired size for a 3-4. But there has been success in the 3-4 by players his size. Marvin Jones was on the smaller side when Parcells got here in 97 and Parcells beefed him up. But some of the smaller yet productive 3-4 LB's are Donnie Edwards, Zack Thomas, James Farrior is only 240, Colvin who played outside. Although it is not ideal to have someone of Vilma's size I could see him doing well in this system. If not look for the Jets to move him outside or tweak the system to better fit his style of play. Vilma got engulfed by blockers at times last year in a 4-3. It is not only about size. Vilma needs to learn how to rely on speed less and shed blockers better. Otherwise he needs to go outside anyway - no matter what system we are running.

[RichardSeymour]

NFL.com has Ellis at 285. That's big ENOUGH, but it's undersized.

Warren and Sey are 307 and 310. Our lightest DE is 290.

[Boozer76]

Vilma is not to prototype. nor the desired size for a 3-4. But there has been success in the 3-4 by players his size. Marvin Jones was on the smaller side when Parcells got here in 97 and Parcells beefed him up. But some of the smaller yet productive 3-4 LB's are Donnie Edwards, Zack Thomas, James Farrior is only 240, Colvin who played outside. Although it is not ideal to have someone of Vilma's size I could see him doing well in this system. If not look for the Jets to move him outside or tweak the system to better fit his style of play. Vilma got engulfed by blockers at times last year in a 4-3. It is not only about size. Vilma needs to learn how to rely on speed less and shed blockers better. Otherwise he needs to go outside anyway - no matter what system we are running.

Ray Lewis was considered undersized when he came into the league and he has been the best LB in the league whether playing the 3-4 or the 4-3.

[Jack Straw]

NFL.com has Ellis at 285. That's big ENOUGH, but it's undersized.

Warren and Sey are 307 and 310. Our lightest DE is 290.

When Herm moved Ellis to DT a couple years back, he was over 300 lbs. I wouldn't call him undersized because it's not like he isn't capable of bulking up if he has to. Players like Vilma are "undersized" and always will be. Shaun Ellis isn't undersized, he just isn't as big as Ty Warren and Richard Seymour.

[Xcel2NuFX]

Vilma is not the prototype 3-4 LB.

That's not a knock on his abilities, but RS did a nice job explaining the size issue/importance for 3-4 LB's.

Two things will work against Vilma in a 3-4.

First, he will have more OLinemen on him than he has ever seen.

Second, he will have "area" responsibilities and will not be free to run sideline to sideline as he was able to do in the 4-3.

I agree but you know as well as I that weight is not the tell all sign of whether or not a player will be succesful in a certain scheme. Were gonna have to wait and see but Vilma is a dedicated player he put on weight since getting into the league I'm not sure what he weighs currently but I wouldn't be surprised to see Vilma playing at around 240. I think thats very possible and as RS described before it seems that the OLB's in the scheme were talking about tend to be in the 250-270 range.

I also agree with Storm Shadow in the assesment that we really don't know exactly what type of defense Mangini even has planned for us yet. I think it's a bad idea personally for us to run the 3-4 given our personel. At the same time I've always looked at the Belichek philosophy as being of the "Bend but don't break" variety. He likes to force long methodical drives and not give up the big play; while being agressive and getting after the qb by attacking the edges.

My concern if we are to run a similiar defense is the absence of a beefcake OLB who can get to the QB. I think Wimbley could be just that; and although I'm not sure I like the idea of drafting both Williams and Wimbley with our first two picks I wouldn't knock it if it were to happen.

[RichardSeymour]

FWIW....

You can't really make an exception on the DL without blowing up the scheme, but I think an exception could be made for Vilma at ILB due to talent, particularly if he can play at or over 240.

Honestly I was toying with the idea that maybe he could play SS for the Pats before that draft, since I really liked him.

[PatsFanTX]

I think it's a bad idea personally for us to run the 3-4 given our personel. At the same time I've always looked at the Belichek philosophy as being of the "Bend but don't break" variety. He likes to force long methodical drives and not give up the big play; while being agressive and getting after the qb by attacking the edges.

Given the fact that the Jets do not have the "perfect personnel" to employ a 3-4 base defense, I think Mangini will still utilize the 3-4 to show different looks during the games.

There is no reason not to believe the 3-4 would not be effective in certain game situations as a different look.

I have said it for a few months now, the biggest change Mangini will bring to the Jets is an aura of unpredictibility, on both sides of the football.

[RSJ]

FWIW....

You can't really make an exception on the DL without blowing up the scheme, but I think an exception could be made for Vilma at ILB due to talent, particularly if he can play at or over 240.

Honestly I was toying with the idea that maybe he could play SS for the Pats before that draft, since I really liked him.

It is really funny you mentioned that (Vilma to SS). Because I have been thinking about that for a while. I wonder if Vilma could play that position.

[Maxman]

Vilma has to weigh close to 240 now. His time coming out of college was a 4.58. He would fit right in at Safety. He would be late on every play. But the hits would make the highlight reel.

Maybe Vilma can coach special teams or something. He is only the best player on the defense now yet all anyone ever says is how he is undersized. When Vilma becomes the Jets problem, I will be happy.

[PatsFanTX]

Maybe Vilma can coach special teams or something. He is only the best player on the defense now yet all anyone ever says is how he is undersized. When Vilma becomes the Jets problem, I will be happy.

I guess you have selected reading comprehension or you neglect reading the entire thread.

Examples were given as to why Vilma would be "under sized" in a 3-4 set.

How do you draw the conclusion that because Vilma is under-sized for a 3-4 defense, that he is now a "problem" for the Jets?

[Maxman]

I guess you have selected reading comprehension or you neglect reading the entire thread.

Examples were given as to why Vilma would be "under sized" in a 3-4 set.

How do you draw the conclusion that because Vilma is under-sized for a 3-4 defense, that he is now a "problem" for the Jets?

Tx,

I didn't read your whole reply. But I am going to respond anyway.

This is my point. An "undersized" Vilma, even if the Jets played a 3-4 100% of the time, is still not their biggest problem. It is still not even in the top 10.

What I said was when Vilma becomes their problem, I will be happy. Meaning the thousands of other issues have been addressed.

[ThunderbirdJet]

Vilma had to shed blocks last year, since Reed wasn't playing the slant nose within the 3T scheme.... anyone remember the brief scuffle Vilma and Reed had on the sidelines last year over this? More important than size, is whether or not an ILB can shed blocks in the 3-4. People said Zach Thomas was too small too, but they were very wrong about that.

Rather than doing what the Pats do, I think Mangini's defense will look much more similar to what Saban ran, which is also a 3-4, 4-3 hybrid, but with more movement, stunts and personell changes. Thomas really thrived in Saban's system..... and I see no reason why Vilma can't as well. Miami also lacked the perfect D line for a 3-4, but it worked. Saban found a way to use Jason Taylor effectively as well..... and he isn't a prototypical 3-4 DE either. He moved Taylor around to take advantage of his speed. I think Mangini will also make adjustments to install schemes that takes the strengths of the players he has to maximize their abilities.

THAT, IMHO, is what the 3-4 is all about.... it's flexable.

[PeterNorth09]

Tell me if you see a pattern....

365 lbs -- NT Ted Washington

337 lbs -- NT Keith Traylor

325 lbs -- NT Vince Wilfork

310 lbs -- DE Richard Seymour

307 lbs -- DE Ty Warren

300 lbs -- DE Marquise Hill

290 lbs -- DT Brandon Mitchell

290 lbs -- DE Jarvis Green

285 lbs -- DE Bobby Hamilton

280 lbs -- DE Anthony Pleasant

270 lbs -- OLB Willie McGinest

261 lbs -- OLB Mike Vrabel

259 lbs -- ILB Ryan Claridge

250 lbs -- OLB Rosevelt Colvin

248 lbs -- ILB Roman Phifer

247 lbs -- ILB Tedy Bruschi

I believe Bruschi and Phifer's weights have both dropped a bit--- both guys were over 250 in the not too distant past. Colvins has risen since they signed him.... he was at 238 or 240 and one article even claimed that "he didn't weight that soaking wet", and now he's at 250, and looks it. Weight is not an absolute limit on who NE brings in, but they don't bring a guy in as a starter unless they feel he can bulk up to the desired weight.

If Mangini intends to build his defense the way Belichick did, you will not be drafting LBs unless they can play at or near 250 lbs. You will not be drafting "DEs" unless they can play at or near 280, and you'll usually be looking for ~300 if you're running a 3-4.

Shaun Ellis is undersized as a 3-4 DE in the Patriots system. Keep this in mind.

You're right. Size usually wins. Yeah yeah I know about Vilma but he is a special player. We need a NT if we're going to run a 3-4. That's why I wouldn't be shocked if we drafted Ngata at 4.