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The great DH debate


AFJF

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We've heard it all before with "traditionalists" hating the DH and AL fans loving the Home Runs, etc....

One part of the argument that I have never heard though and a point I made to a friend while debating it is this that when a pitcher comes to the plate to hit....it is the only situation in sports where failure is expected and accepted.

How can somebody argue that it's better for the game to put a guy in a position to do something that everybody in the stadium knows he's not capable of doing better than 90% of the time?

Imagine if QBs were expected to throw interceptions in a big spot and people just shrugged and said "ah, what do you expect, he's a qb". It doesn't happen that way because why in the world would you EXPECT failure and then ACCEPT it when it happens? It's beyond me.

It wold be one thing if pitchers could hit (yes, I realize there are five or six of the hundreds of pitchers in MLB that can hit) but they can't. Not only can they not hit, but some of them are just downright comical standing up there with a bat. They look absolutely foolish. Pro athletes? They look like a gay guy (not that there's anything wrong with that) at the playboy mansion. Completely clueless as far as what to do.

Maybe I'm wrong on this and I'm just not able to rack my brain but could somebody please tell me another position/situation in sports where every time a particular scenario arises, everybody in the stadium/on the couch expects the person in that situation to fail. Not an individual because we all know that we expect Doug Brien to miss a big FG in a playoff game, or A-Rod to not get a run in late in the game. I mean a general postition in which there are zero expectations of the persons ability?

Pitchers at the plate are a joke and thats what makes putting them up there a waste of time. If they could collectively get their sh*t together and learn which way to face while standing in the batters box I for one would LOVE to see the AL make pitchers hit, but as of right now, they're so dreadful to watch that I think it takes away from the game.

Thoughts?

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We've heard it all before with "traditionalists" hating the DH and AL fans loving the Home Runs, etc....

One part of the argument that I have never heard though and a point I made to a friend while debating it is this that when a pitcher comes to the plate to hit....it is the only situation in sports where failure is expected and accepted.

How can somebody argue that it's better for the game to put a guy in a position to do something that everybody in the stadium knows he's not capable of doing better than 90% of the time?

Imagine if QBs were expected to throw interceptions in a big spot and people just shrugged and said "ah, what do you expect, he's a qb". It doesn't happen that way because why in the world would you EXPECT failure and then ACCEPT it when it happens? It's beyond me.

It wold be one thing if pitchers could hit (yes, I realize there are five or six of the hundreds of pitchers in MLB that can hit) but they can't. Not only can they not hit, but some of them are just downright comical standing up there with a bat. They look absolutely foolish. Pro athletes? They look like a gay guy (not that there's anything wrong with that) at the playboy mansion. Completely clueless as far as what to do.

Maybe I'm wrong on this and I'm just not able to rack my brain but could somebody please tell me another position/situation in sports where every time a particular scenario arises, everybody in the stadium/on the couch expects the person in that situation to fail. Not an individual because we all know that we expect Doug Brien to miss a big FG in a playoff game, or A-Rod to not get a run in late in the game. I mean a general postition in which there are zero expectations of the persons ability?

Pitchers at the plate are a joke and thats what makes putting them up there a waste of time. If they could collectively get their sh*t together and learn which way to face while standing in the batters box I for one would LOVE to see the AL make pitchers hit, but as of right now, they're so dreadful to watch that I think it takes away from the game.

Thoughts?

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Ironically as a kid who grew up and is til this day still a fan of the AL, I used to be a big proponent of the AL scraping the DH rule. Then a few years ago I attended a NL game (Expos vs. Marlins) and quickly realized the errors of my ways. This was only reinforced over the past few years as I've watched Tigers interleague games in NL parks and realized quickly how NL pitchers who are supposed to be able to 'hit as part of their job description' had about the same ability at the plate as the AL pitchers who only take BP the week before interleague games.

If it wasn't bad enough NL games are boring to begin with, watching each side basically piss away an at bat is pointless. What a complete and utter waste of time. You would think an pitcher vs pitcher/hitter duel would be interesting...it's not. It's boring, it's useless, and it detracts from the game. About the ONLY thing it does is force managers to yank Pitchers before they really need to come out, because their AB is crucial and they have to PH the guy.

Having NL pitchers bat is about as exciting as making NFL Place Kickers return punts.

Viva the DH. Viva Offense.

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Ironically as a kid who grew up and is til this day still a fan of the AL, I used to be a big proponent of the AL scraping the DH rule. Then a few years ago I attended a NL game (Expos vs. Marlins) and quickly realized the errors of my ways. This was only reinforced over the past few years as I've watched Tigers interleague games in NL parks and realized quickly how NL pitchers who are supposed to be able to 'hit as part of their job description' had about the same ability at the plate as the AL pitchers who only take BP the week before interleague games.

If it wasn't bad enough NL games are boring to begin with, watching each side basically piss away an at bat is pointless. What a complete and utter waste of time. You would think an pitcher vs pitcher/hitter duel would be interesting...it's not. It's boring, it's useless, and it detracts from the game. About the ONLY thing it does is force managers to yank Pitchers before they really need to come out, because their AB is crucial and they have to PH the guy.

Having NL pitchers bat is about as exciting as making NFL Place Kickers return punts.

Viva the DH. Viva Offense.

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One thing you are missing is the game management that comes with the pitcher having to hit.

Gibson - Seaver deadlocked 1-1 bottom of the 8th.....Seaver due up with a runner on 2nd....do you pinch it or stay with your ace.

There's also double switches ....sacrifice bunts etc.

Baseball the way it is meant to be.

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One thing you are missing is the game management that comes with the pitcher having to hit.

Gibson - Seaver deadlocked 1-1 bottom of the 8th.....Seaver due up with a runner on 2nd....do you pinch it or stay with your ace.

There's also double switches ....sacrifice bunts etc.

Baseball the way it is meant to be.

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One thing you are missing is the game management that comes with the pitcher having to hit.

Gibson - Seaver deadlocked 1-1 bottom of the 8th.....Seaver due up with a runner on 2nd....do you pinch it or stay with your ace.

There's also double switches ....sacrifice bunts etc.

Baseball the way it is meant to be.

Again this is all a matter of opinion and from my prespective I feel like that takes away from the game. Great pitching duel, 8th inning, one of the greatest games of all time, but now the game gets watered down and the fans have a classic moment taken away because the great pitcher has no idea what to do when he has a bat in his hands, prematurely ending what was a mathup of two greats. JMO.

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One thing you are missing is the game management that comes with the pitcher having to hit.

Gibson - Seaver deadlocked 1-1 bottom of the 8th.....Seaver due up with a runner on 2nd....do you pinch it or stay with your ace.

There's also double switches ....sacrifice bunts etc.

Baseball the way it is meant to be.

Again this is all a matter of opinion and from my prespective I feel like that takes away from the game. Great pitching duel, 8th inning, one of the greatest games of all time, but now the game gets watered down and the fans have a classic moment taken away because the great pitcher has no idea what to do when he has a bat in his hands, prematurely ending what was a mathup of two greats. JMO.

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Again this is all a matter of opinion and from my prespective I feel like that takes away from the game. Great pitching duel, 8th inning, one of the greatest games of all time, but now the game gets watered down and the fans have a classic moment taken away because the great pitcher has no idea what to do when he has a bat in his hands, prematurely ending what was a mathup of two greats. JMO.

Yeah but then tell me, WTF in game managing does Joe Torre or any AL Manager perform other than deciding when his pitcher is toast?

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Again this is all a matter of opinion and from my prespective I feel like that takes away from the game. Great pitching duel, 8th inning, one of the greatest games of all time, but now the game gets watered down and the fans have a classic moment taken away because the great pitcher has no idea what to do when he has a bat in his hands, prematurely ending what was a mathup of two greats. JMO.

Yeah but then tell me, WTF in game managing does Joe Torre or any AL Manager perform other than deciding when his pitcher is toast?

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Yeah but then tell me, WTF in game managing does Joe Torre or any AL Manager perform other than deciding when his pitcher is toast?

you are absolutely right...

this is baseball, and 1-9 should all hit. When a football team is down 28-7 they have about the same odds of winning as a pitcher getting on base, but the ref does not award them extra points to make the game more entertaining.

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Yeah but then tell me, WTF in game managing does Joe Torre or any AL Manager perform other than deciding when his pitcher is toast?

you are absolutely right...

this is baseball, and 1-9 should all hit. When a football team is down 28-7 they have about the same odds of winning as a pitcher getting on base, but the ref does not award them extra points to make the game more entertaining.

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Yeah but then tell me, WTF in game managing does Joe Torre or any AL Manager perform other than deciding when his pitcher is toast?

There are other facets of the game other than "when to pull a pitcher".

Base stealing, hit and run (which Torre dos NOT do enough), L vs R/R vs L match ups...basically all the same stuff NL managers worry about with the lone exception being "If my pitcher is still pitching well, I'm leaving him in"

again, it's a matter of personal preference and I prefer to see players asked to do something they're capable of donig. Not something they are clearly unable to do while at the same time taking away from what could be a great pitching match up.

As I stated in the original post, I just cant think of another situation in pro sports where an athlete is asked to do something that everybody knows he's not capable of doing.

Why doesn't the NFL play both ways. Why have guys that specialize on offense or defense only? Isnt the game multi faceted? Wouldn't the game be better if TO was forced to play defense too? (acutally it might be, but I think you see what I'm saying)

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Yeah but then tell me, WTF in game managing does Joe Torre or any AL Manager perform other than deciding when his pitcher is toast?

There are other facets of the game other than "when to pull a pitcher".

Base stealing, hit and run (which Torre dos NOT do enough), L vs R/R vs L match ups...basically all the same stuff NL managers worry about with the lone exception being "If my pitcher is still pitching well, I'm leaving him in"

again, it's a matter of personal preference and I prefer to see players asked to do something they're capable of donig. Not something they are clearly unable to do while at the same time taking away from what could be a great pitching match up.

As I stated in the original post, I just cant think of another situation in pro sports where an athlete is asked to do something that everybody knows he's not capable of doing.

Why doesn't the NFL play both ways. Why have guys that specialize on offense or defense only? Isnt the game multi faceted? Wouldn't the game be better if TO was forced to play defense too? (acutally it might be, but I think you see what I'm saying)

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you are absolutely right...

this is baseball, and 1-9 should all hit. When a football team is down 28-7 they have about the same odds of winning as a pitcher getting on base, but the ref does not award them extra points to make the game more entertaining.

But you didn't start out 28-7 did you? thats a spot you put yourself in, so for the record, I am also against any NFL game starting out at 28-7:)

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you are absolutely right...

this is baseball, and 1-9 should all hit. When a football team is down 28-7 they have about the same odds of winning as a pitcher getting on base, but the ref does not award them extra points to make the game more entertaining.

But you didn't start out 28-7 did you? thats a spot you put yourself in, so for the record, I am also against any NFL game starting out at 28-7:)

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hey some peopl elike it some dont,,

bottom line is that the DH make the game less strategical, but some people dont care,,,

i habve never seen a manager who managed in both say they like the DH better,, they all say they like the NL game more due to the moves that are needed with pitchers, double switches,,a good manager means more in NL than in AL...a good manager can influenece a game more tahn a mnager in AL,,trhey both can influence , just more so in NL,,

but i can see where somepeople like the DH,,especially the youngsters who have grown up in the bang bang instant ESPN hilite world,,

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hey some peopl elike it some dont,,

bottom line is that the DH make the game less strategical, but some people dont care,,,

i habve never seen a manager who managed in both say they like the DH better,, they all say they like the NL game more due to the moves that are needed with pitchers, double switches,,a good manager means more in NL than in AL...a good manager can influenece a game more tahn a mnager in AL,,trhey both can influence , just more so in NL,,

but i can see where somepeople like the DH,,especially the youngsters who have grown up in the bang bang instant ESPN hilite world,,

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hey some peopl elike it some dont,,

bottom line is that the DH make the game less strategical, but some people dont care,,,

i habve never seen a manager who managed in both say they like the DH better,, they all say they like the NL game more due to the moves that are needed with pitchers, double switches,,a good manager means more in NL than in AL...a good manager can influenece a game more tahn a mnager in AL,,trhey both can influence , just more so in NL,,

but i can see where somepeople like the DH,,especially the youngsters who have grown up in the bang bang instant ESPN hilite world,,

I'm 20 years old, and I have no preference for the DH...

besides which the game is hard enough on pitchers these days, and good pitchers are few and hard to find, (just ask the yankees :wink:)... It's bad enough the strike zone is tiny now.

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hey some peopl elike it some dont,,

bottom line is that the DH make the game less strategical, but some people dont care,,,

i habve never seen a manager who managed in both say they like the DH better,, they all say they like the NL game more due to the moves that are needed with pitchers, double switches,,a good manager means more in NL than in AL...a good manager can influenece a game more tahn a mnager in AL,,trhey both can influence , just more so in NL,,

but i can see where somepeople like the DH,,especially the youngsters who have grown up in the bang bang instant ESPN hilite world,,

I'm 20 years old, and I have no preference for the DH...

besides which the game is hard enough on pitchers these days, and good pitchers are few and hard to find, (just ask the yankees :wink:)... It's bad enough the strike zone is tiny now.

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I'm 20 years old, and I have no preference for the DH...

besides which the game is hard enough on pitchers these days, and good pitchers are few and hard to find, (just ask the yankees :wink:)... It's bad enough the strike zone is tiny now.

I believe the Yankees have the lowest ERA in the AL.

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I'm 20 years old, and I have no preference for the DH...

besides which the game is hard enough on pitchers these days, and good pitchers are few and hard to find, (just ask the yankees :wink:)... It's bad enough the strike zone is tiny now.

I believe the Yankees have the lowest ERA in the AL.

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Watching pitchers bad is boring and a waste of time because even when that pitcher hits an opposing player, the other team rarely comes up and hits that pitcher when it comes up like it should (cough, Pedro, cough).

Pitchers batting is about as fun as staring at a blank wall.

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Watching pitchers bad is boring and a waste of time because even when that pitcher hits an opposing player, the other team rarely comes up and hits that pitcher when it comes up like it should (cough, Pedro, cough).

Pitchers batting is about as fun as staring at a blank wall.

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hey some peopl elike it some dont,,

bottom line is that the DH make the game less strategical, but some people dont care,,,

i habve never seen a manager who managed in both say they like the DH better,, they all say they like the NL game more due to the moves that are needed with pitchers, double switches,,a good manager means more in NL than in AL...a good manager can influenece a game more tahn a mnager in AL,,trhey both can influence , just more so in NL,,

but i can see where somepeople like the DH,,especially the youngsters who have grown up in the bang bang instant ESPN hilite world,,

Actually Southern, I specifically remember Lou Pinella after winning the WS with Cincy saying that the AL/NL managing thing was way overrated and it's not as big a deal as some people make it out to be. You'd be hard pressed to find a manger that had as much success as Lou in both leagues.

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hey some peopl elike it some dont,,

bottom line is that the DH make the game less strategical, but some people dont care,,,

i habve never seen a manager who managed in both say they like the DH better,, they all say they like the NL game more due to the moves that are needed with pitchers, double switches,,a good manager means more in NL than in AL...a good manager can influenece a game more tahn a mnager in AL,,trhey both can influence , just more so in NL,,

but i can see where somepeople like the DH,,especially the youngsters who have grown up in the bang bang instant ESPN hilite world,,

Actually Southern, I specifically remember Lou Pinella after winning the WS with Cincy saying that the AL/NL managing thing was way overrated and it's not as big a deal as some people make it out to be. You'd be hard pressed to find a manger that had as much success as Lou in both leagues.

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Watching pitchers bad is boring and a waste of time because even when that pitcher hits an opposing player, the other team rarely comes up and hits that pitcher when it comes up like it should (cough, Pedro, cough).

Pitchers batting is about as fun as staring at a blank wall.

That has always mystified me....why in the world wouldn't a team throw at a pitcher who just drilled one of their guys? I don't get it. You hit our guy, now we're gonna hit you.

I did love how Clemens went to the NL and completely dominated though after years of hearing Mets fans say the he's a pussy who hides behind the DH and wouldn't be able to get it done in the NL. The guy was only twice the pitcher in the big bad NL that he was in the AL.

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Watching pitchers bad is boring and a waste of time because even when that pitcher hits an opposing player, the other team rarely comes up and hits that pitcher when it comes up like it should (cough, Pedro, cough).

Pitchers batting is about as fun as staring at a blank wall.

That has always mystified me....why in the world wouldn't a team throw at a pitcher who just drilled one of their guys? I don't get it. You hit our guy, now we're gonna hit you.

I did love how Clemens went to the NL and completely dominated though after years of hearing Mets fans say the he's a pussy who hides behind the DH and wouldn't be able to get it done in the NL. The guy was only twice the pitcher in the big bad NL that he was in the AL.

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I'm 20 years old, and I have no preference for the DH...

besides which the game is hard enough on pitchers these days, and good pitchers are few and hard to find, (just ask the yankees :wink:)... It's bad enough the strike zone is tiny now.

you are on the right track,, the DH has taken a toll on pitchers stats in the AL, as they dont have that automatic out

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I'm 20 years old, and I have no preference for the DH...

besides which the game is hard enough on pitchers these days, and good pitchers are few and hard to find, (just ask the yankees :wink:)... It's bad enough the strike zone is tiny now.

you are on the right track,, the DH has taken a toll on pitchers stats in the AL, as they dont have that automatic out

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Accpeted failure though...thats what irks me the most. People expecting you to fail and they don't mind when you do. I cant relate to it.

Not to mention the fact that on the rare ocassion that pitcher gets a few big hits, he becomes a running joke....lol

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Accpeted failure though...thats what irks me the most. People expecting you to fail and they don't mind when you do. I cant relate to it.

Not to mention the fact that on the rare ocassion that pitcher gets a few big hits, he becomes a running joke....lol

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Accpeted failure though...thats what irks me the most. People expecting you to fail and they don't mind when you do. I cant relate to it.

Not to mention the fact that on the rare ocassion that pitcher gets a few big hits, he becomes a running joke....lol

It is baseball though... I'm sure you played in little league, when I did I pitched and I hit, and no one expected me to suck just because I pitched. I also played short.

Guys coming out of high school and college also play a bunch of different positions... I believe Brian Bannister played third or something in college... D-willis can hit pretty well, etc.

It just sucks to narrow down the skills.

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Accpeted failure though...thats what irks me the most. People expecting you to fail and they don't mind when you do. I cant relate to it.

Not to mention the fact that on the rare ocassion that pitcher gets a few big hits, he becomes a running joke....lol

It is baseball though... I'm sure you played in little league, when I did I pitched and I hit, and no one expected me to suck just because I pitched. I also played short.

Guys coming out of high school and college also play a bunch of different positions... I believe Brian Bannister played third or something in college... D-willis can hit pretty well, etc.

It just sucks to narrow down the skills.

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That has always mystified me....why in the world wouldn't a team throw at a pitcher who just drilled one of their guys? I don't get it. You hit our guy, now we're gonna hit you.

I did love how Clemens went to the NL and completely dominated though after years of hearing Mets fans say the he's a pussy who hides behind the DH and wouldn't be able to get it done in the NL. The guy was only twice the pitcher in the big bad NL that he was in the AL.

Roger won in the NL because he concentrated on throwing strikes instead of headhunting like he did in the AL.

Roger's a great pitcher, but in my mind, the most gutless pitcher in recent memory. In the AL, he threw at people, in interleague he threw at people, (as long as it was in an AL park), and when he goes where he has to come up to the plate, he doesn't hit anyone.

I wish Piazza had beat the crap out of him with the broken bat. Of course, big bad Roger would have run away and hid first.

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