Jon Lester (for MadMike)

[CrazyCarl40]

Shut down the best offense is baseball. Outpitched an All-Star. Let the crow eating begin.

[NIGHT STALKER]

As a Yankees fan, I can also be objective, and no, that is not an oxymoron! I watched some of the game and this kid Lester looks like the real deal.

He gets extra credit for just the fact that he is a rookie.

[Blackout]

Moe did a good job last night against the White Sox

granted he only went 6 innings, you better hope he doesn't turn into the next Jaret Wright

[CrazyCarl40]

Moe did a good job last night against the White Sox

granted he only went 6 innings, you better hope he doesn't turn into the next Jaret Wright

He only had 95 pitches. Sox don't want to ruin his arm by pitching him too much too soon. Hasn't pitched over 150 innings ever, I believe.

[Blackout]

He only had 95 pitches. Sox don't want to ruin his arm by pitching him too much too soon. Hasn't pitched over 150 innings ever, I believe.

didnt notice his pitch count, that may explain it

someone i work with actually said he thinks Lester would be a better ROY candidate this year than Papelbon just beacuse he's a starter. I disagreed though.

[CrazyCarl40]

didnt notice his pitch count, that may explain it

someone i work with actually said he thinks Lester would be a better ROY candidate this year than Papelbon just beacuse he's a starter. I disagreed though.

I dont necessarily agree with that either. If a start is to win ROY it'd be Verlander or Liriano. Right now Papelbon would be it for me. His ERA is re-donk-ulous and he's doing it out of nowhere.

Lester and Papelbon are doing well, but Hansen and Delcarmen are as well. Hansen came into the Sox game bases loaded and 1 out and got out of the ining without any runs scoring. I like the youth arm movement. It's something the Yanks should look into.

[Barton]

Lesters shown nothing special. Lets see how he does facing the same team the 2nd time around. So far all I've seen from him is poor command, an average fastball, and just 1 decent secondary pitch. He's got a good era but he's been lucky.

BTW I like how you leave out that Hansen got touched up the very next inning.

[PFSIKH]

Lesters shown nothing special. Lets see how he does facing the same team the 2nd time around. So far all I've seen from him is poor command, an average fastball, and just 1 decent secondary pitch. He's got a good era but he's been lucky.

BTW I like how you leave out that Hansen got touched up the very next inning.

Good points.

They guy is also 22yo. I would not pencil him to be the 5th starter yet. As long as he can hold the fort better then Jason Johnson, who is two starts too late past being optioned, the Sox will be okay.

[CrazyCarl40]

Lesters shown nothing special. Lets see how he does facing the same team the 2nd time around. So far all I've seen from him is poor command, an average fastball, and just 1 decent secondary pitch. He's got a good era but he's been lucky.

BTW I like how you leave out that Hansen got touched up the very next inning.

Hansen gave up one run. I can handle that. Especially since we gave up 0 with them loaded. That one run didn't matter. A hit in the past one would have.

Lester has shown plenty enough to show that he is special. Only you have said anything real inflammatory and deragatory about him. Poor command, I'll give you but his "average" fastball and his 3 above average secondaries have faired very well so far. Yes he's been lucky, but he's also been very smart and has pitched out of the same jams he has gotten into. He is going to be a very good pitcher and very soon. Ask anyone who's actually watched him. Pedro said so. Every announcer has said so. But I should value your opinion higher I suppose.

[Barton]

Hansen gave up one run. I can handle that. Especially since we gave up 0 with them loaded. That one run didn't matter. A hit in the past one would have.

Lester has shown plenty enough to show that he is special. Only you have said anything real inflammatory and deragatory about him. Poor command, I'll give you but his "average" fastball and his 3 above average secondaries have faired very well so far. Yes he's been lucky, but he's also been very smart and has pitched out of the same jams he has gotten into. He is going to be a very good pitcher and very soon. Ask anyone who's actually watched him. Pedro said so. Every announcer has said so. But I should value your opinion higher I suppose.

3 above average secondary pitches LOL! The guy is a 2 pitch pitcher right now and doesnt have a single dependable pitch with solid command.

He's gonna get rocked hard very soon once the league catches on to his game. Not saying he'll bust, but he's gonna have to work alot to be very good or even solid. "Special". LOLOL

Even pfiskh agrees with me about him. He's shown nothing special at all.

Brad Halsey had some good games with similar stuff, and he sucks.

[madmike1]

Shut down the best offense is baseball. Outpitched an All-Star. Let the crow eating begin.

I'm not going to eat crow based on a few starts vs teams that have never seen him before with his SKY HIGH WHIP. He's has about 2 runners on every inning. Thats HORRIBLE don't let the fact that he's winning games fool you. It won't last for long. 1.57WHIP 270BAA 1.50:1 k:bb = Middle of the rotation at best.

[CrazyCarl40]

I'm not going to eat crow based on a few starts vs teams that have never seen him before with his SKY HIGH WHIP. He's has about 2 runners on every inning. Thats HORRIBLE don't let the fact that he's winning games fool you. It won't last for long. 1.57WHIP 270BAA 1.50:1 k:bb = Middle of the rotation at best.

The control will come. Man you guys just cannot give credit where it is due. He shut down the league's leading offense and you talk about how horrible he is. He isn't the #2 prospect in the Sox organization of loaded prospects for nothing.

[madmike1]

The control will come. Man you guys just cannot give credit where it is due. He shut down the league's leading offense and you talk about how horrible he is. He isn't the #2 prospect in the Sox organization of loaded prospects for nothing.

LOL @ Boston's loaded farm system. Dude could you just stop being a delusional homer for one second and look at lester's stats. W-L record is the least important stat not the most. Also Boston has ONE decent prospect in the minors right now (Murphy.)

[CrazyCarl40]

LOL @ Boston's loaded farm system. Dude could you just stop being a delusional homer for one second and look at lester's stats. W-L record is the least important stat not the most. Also Boston has ONE decent prospect in the minors right now (Murphy.)

I look at Lester's stats and I see an effective, young left-handed pitcher with some control problems that will be remedied by experience.

Right and Ellsbury, Pedroia, Martinez, etc are not decent. Get your Yankee colored glasses off.

Oh and Hughes did wonderfully at the futures game, no?

[Barton]

I look at Lester's stats and I see an effective, young left-handed pitcher with some control problems that will be remedied by experience.

Right and Ellsbury, Pedroia, Martinez, etc are not decent. Get your Yankee colored glasses off.

Oh and Hughes did wonderfully at the futures game, no?

Some pitchers never improve their control!!

And I guess we should trade Hughes for Juan Pierre now? You wish.

[madmike1]

I look at Lester's stats and I see an effective, young left-handed pitcher with some control problems that will be remedied by experience.

Right and Ellsbury, Pedroia, Martinez, etc are not decent. Get your Yankee colored glasses off.

Oh and Hughes did wonderfully at the futures game, no?

LOL you're the typical idiot who makes an opinion based on ONE bad inning. what you SEE in lester's starts means NOTHING. You judge baseball players by their numbers and lester's numbers are mediocore at best. Pedrora Elsbury and martinez are C+ prospects IF THAT. Dave Murphy ramains boston's only decent prospect in the minors right now.

[CrazyCarl40]

LOL you're the typical idiot who makes an opinion based on ONE bad inning. what you SEE in lester's starts means NOTHING. You judge baseball players by their numbers and lester's numbers are mediocore at best. Pedrora Elsbury and martinez are C+ prospects IF THAT. Dave Murphy ramains boston's only decent prospect in the minors right now.

What I see in his starts means nothing? What kind of idiotic statement is that? Let's base it off of what we hear or taste?

Martinez just pitched and pitched well in the futures game. He isn't even the best pitching prospect we have. You have no idea about any prospects because Pedroia, Elsbury, Martinez all grad B or higher.

[madmike1]

What I see in his starts means nothing? What kind of idiotic statement is that? Let's base it off of what we hear or taste?

Martinez just pitched and pitched well in the futures game. He isn't even the best pitching prospect we have. You have no idea about any prospects because Pedroia, Elsbury, Martinez all grad B or higher.

Graded by who? Some boston site? None of them are BP top 100. You're right what you see means nothing thats called SUBJECTIVE INFORMATION. Whats not subjective is stats. And YES because martinez pitched better then hughes did in ONE inning of the futures game he's CLEARLY a better prospect. You are a CLEAR moron.

[CrazyCarl40]

Graded by who? Some boston site? None of them are BP top 100. You're right what you see means nothing thats called SUBJECTIVE INFORMATION. Whats not subjective is stats. And YES because martinez pitched better then hughes did in ONE inning of the futures game he's CLEARLY a better prospect. You are a CLEAR moron.

Show me where I said Martinez is better than Hughes and I will never post on the baseball board again. Stats are not subjective. Lester is 4-0 with a good ERA. That works for me.

[madmike1]

Show me where I said Martinez is better than Hughes and I will never post on the baseball board again. Stats are not subjective. Lester is 4-0 with a good ERA. That works for me.

You just used the Futures game as a reason to pump up Martinez and bash Hughes. Thats completely moronic.

W-L and ERA are the 2 LEAST accurate stats for judging pitching but because they reflect well on lester you'll just choose to ignore all the other starts that better reflect the kind of pitcher he really is.

[CrazyCarl40]

You just used the Futures game as a reason to pump up Martinez and bash Hughes. Thats completely moronic.

W-L and ERA are the 2 LEAST accurate stats for judging pitching but because they reflect well on lester you'll just choose to ignore all the other starts that better reflect the kind of pitcher he really is.

All I said was Hughes did not do so well and Martinez impressed a bunch of people. Never compared the two in the least. And it isn't moronic. They are on a grand stage to show their progress and how good they are. It is a good litmus test for them. That by no means says that Martinez will be great and Hughes will bite, but it is an indicator of how ready they are for a possible promotion.

You said you shouldn't go by what you see but the stats. Fine I gave you stats and now they aren't good enough. I know Lester's WHIP and BAA is a touch high, although his WHIP is going to be higher because the Red Sox staff is protecting him and taking him out earlier in games therefore augmenting his numbers. He may soon falter but from what I have seen from this kid at 22 is dynamite. Every announcer or analyst or oppising pitcher or coach has said so. Give credit where it is due. Oh, and here's a stat no one can argue with: the Red Sox are 5-1 in games he has started.

[PFSIKH]

LOL @ Boston's loaded farm system. Dude could you just stop being a delusional homer for one second and look at lester's stats. W-L record is the least important stat not the most. Also Boston has ONE decent prospect in the minors right now (Murphy.)

Delusional? Because you say so?

MinorLeaguenews.com said Boston had the best farm system.

BaseballAmerica.com has them at 8th.

Irregardless of whom you believe, they are in the top quarter of the league and that would suggest they have more then one prospect.

MM you make some valid points, but at other times your blind hatred of the Sox clouds your judgement. Which for the life of me I cannot understand why Yankee fans always think everything Sox sucks.

This team is smart now, they have redirected there efforts to building from within. Yes, they will ship prospects like Hanley Ramirez to get Becket, but they will also keep the Papelbon's, Hansen's and Lester's. I think the Sox are run better then the Yankees.

This does not mean we will be going for our 27th title in 2026, but the days of a hitter laden club that comes up short are over. the new Sox management team seems to get it, pitching and defense ultimately wins championships. that is something the previous generations never fully understood.

[madmike1]

Those system rankings came out before boston traded Ramriez and Sanchez for beckett so they are included as are Papelbon, Hansen and Lester. Out of the 3 only one has gotten better this year as opposed to last year. As far as boston being 5-1 in lesters starts that FAR too small a sample size to mean anything for a pitcher with that BAD a WHIP BAA and BB/K. If you think wins mean anything just look at Beckett. He has 11 wins though he's been horrible this year.

[CrazyCarl40]

Those system rankings came out before boston traded Ramriez and Sanchez for beckett so they are included as are Papelbon, Hansen and Lester. Out of the 3 only one has gotten better this year as opposed to last year. As far as boston being 5-1 in lesters starts that FAR too small a sample size to mean anything for a pitcher with that BAD a WHIP BAA and BB/K. If you think wins mean anything just look at Beckett. He has 11 wins though he's been horrible this year.

Just give Lester credit already. What would you say if Hughes had simliar outings and stats in his first year?

Beckett's been horrible? Horrible? He's been better than every Yankee starter except for Moose. He has more QS than all of them except for Moose. And don't talk about his ERA. He had a couple really awful starts that has bloated it. Plus, according to you ERA is not a good standard, so please tell me how he has been horrible.

[mbn007]

I dont necessarily agree with that either. If a start is to win ROY it'd be Verlander or Liriano. Right now Papelbon would be it for me. His ERA is re-donk-ulous and he's doing it out of nowhere.

Lester and Papelbon are doing well, but Hansen and Delcarmen are as well. Hansen came into the Sox game bases loaded and 1 out and got out of the ining without any runs scoring. I like the youth arm movement. It's something the Yanks should look into.

Yanks got a late start, but will be there within 2 years from today.

You heard it here first.

[mbn007]

Oh and Hughes did wonderfully at the futures game, no?

So the whole Phil Hughes story is based on how he did at the Futures Game, 1 inning?

Gotcha.

[CrazyCarl40]

So the whole Phil Hughes story is based on how he did at the Futures Game, 1 inning?

Gotcha.

No and I may have implied that by accident. I just thought it was something to make Yankees fans slow their roll on the kid. He may be great one day but just don't pressure him at 19.

[madmike1]

Just give Lester credit already. What would you say if Hughes had simliar outings and stats in his first year?

Beckett's been horrible? Horrible? He's been better than every Yankee starter except for Moose. He has more QS than all of them except for Moose. And don't talk about his ERA. He had a couple really awful starts that has bloated it. Plus, according to you ERA is not a good standard, so please tell me how he has been horrible.

Wang has been FAR better then beckett.

[Barton]

Beckett has been a dissapointment. You cannot deny this.

He only had success in interleague play this year, 80% of his starts vs the AL he was horrendous.

[Blackout]

i gotta admit, as someone with Beckett on his fantasy team I've been disapointed

Certainly not worthy of being deemed the replacement for Pedro and Clemens, as some Boston sports writers pumped him up to be (not that I expected him to be that great in Boston this year)

[PFSIKH]

Beckett has been a dissapointment. You cannot deny this.

He only had success in interleague play this year, 80% of his starts vs the AL he was horrendous.

Put the crack pipe down whiteman.

How has he been a disapointment? By going 11-4?

Go look at his humbers, he has 11 of 18 in quality starts.

Look at his game log. His ERA was consistently under 3.00 until Toronto and Cleveland used him for batting practice. He had back down to 3.80 before Toronto again and NY teed off on his pitching in back-to-back starts and shot it up over 5. Coincidentally, that is when Skank fans started shirping he has been a disapointment. I still think it is a very very good pick-up. You all might want to go back and look at Pedro's numbers when he went from Montreal to Boston. He saw a pretty good rise in his ERA.

I expect come this time next year you will start saying publicly what you are thinking privately, damm the boss should have let the Sox have Pavano and gone after Beckett. Sox have their ace for the next 6-8 years right now.

MM Better go look at Wang's stats. He is having a good season, but far better? I do not think so. Beckett has more QS starts (11 to 10) despite having one less start. Wang has more innings pitched, but Beckett is giving up less then a hit an inning as opposed to wang, plus Beckett is more of a threat to K someone. Beckett's WHIP is lower and AGS, did not know they had that stat, is better. Bekett's BAA and OBP is lower. The only place you can say Wang is far better is HRs allowed.

[madmike1]

Put the crack pipe down whiteman.

How has he been a disapointment? By going 11-4?

Go look at his humbers, he has 11 of 18 in quality starts.

Look at his game log. His ERA was consistently under 3.00 until Toronto and Cleveland used him for batting practice. He had back down to 3.80 before Toronto again and NY teed off on his pitching in back-to-back starts and shot it up over 5. Coincidentally, that is when Skank fans started shirping he has been a disapointment. I still think it is a very very good pick-up. You all might want to go back and look at Pedro's numbers when he went from Montreal to Boston. He saw a pretty good rise in his ERA.

I expect come this time next year you will start saying publicly what you are thinking privately, damm the boss should have let the Sox have Pavano and gone after Beckett. Sox have their ace for the next 6-8 years right now.

MM Better go look at Wang's stats. He is having a good season, but far better? I do not think so. Beckett has more QS starts (11 to 10) despite having one less start. Wang has more innings pitched, but Beckett is giving up less then a hit an inning as opposed to wang, plus Beckett is more of a threat to K someone. Beckett's WHIP is lower and AGS, did not know they had that stat, is better. Bekett's BAA and OBP is lower. The only place you can say Wang is far better is HRs allowed.

This is one case where WHIP dosn't tell the whole story because Wang isn't a strikeout pitcher. Beckett IS a strikeout pitcher whos k/9 is down OVER a run from last year and his carrer. Not to mention the fact that Beckett gets almost 2 runs more run support per game then wang does which explains for the disparity in wins even though wang has only 2 less he should probably have 2-3 more... What makes up for wang's slightly higher BAA and WHIP (it's only .06 higher) is that fact that he has the 2nd best G/F in baseball which means that that BAA and WHIP is inflated with singles. Wang also leads the major leagues in GIDP. Beckett's G/F is horrendous and if you look closer at the stats' wang's OPS against is almost 100 points LOWER then beckett's. What that means is that wang gives up singles and beckett gives up homers and XBH's.

[CrazyCarl40]

I think if you talk about Beckett you have to talk about Bronson Arroyo comparatively. Arroyo was nothing more than a 4th or 5th starter in the AL and now in the NL he's a Cy Young candidate. Beckett has had his share of trouble adapting to the AL style and by that I mean with the DH and the higher quality of players in the AL and let's be honest the better teams as well. He is still very young and I think he will return to Cy Young form in the AL next season.

[PFSIKH]

This is one case where WHIP dosn't tell the whole story because Wang isn't a strikeout pitcher. Beckett IS a strikeout pitcher whos k/9 is down OVER a run from last year and his carrer. Not to mention the fact that Beckett gets almost 2 runs more run support per game then wang does which explains for the disparity in wins even though wang has only 2 less he should probably have 2-3 more... What makes up for wang's slightly higher BAA and WHIP (it's only .06 higher) is that fact that he has the 2nd best G/F in baseball which means that that BAA and WHIP is inflated with singles. Wang also leads the major leagues in GIDP. Beckett's G/F is horrendous and if you look closer at the stats' wang's OPS against is almost 100 points LOWER then beckett's. What that means is that wang gives up singles and beckett gives up homers and XBH's.

I did not say anything about run support, which would factor into wins/losses.

As Crazy pointed out, some of Josh's increases are clearly related to his shift from the NL to AL. Better league and having to face a DH as opposed to a pitcher.

It is disengenuious to say Wang's stats are slanted because he is a ground ball pitcher. Inherently, Josh and Wang will have stats slanted in there favor. Which goes back to my original point, Wang is not signifcantly better then Josh as you implied. The only XBHs that are higher, are HRs, but Josh's totals are high. Wang is having a slightly better year. Josh is not getting crushed by Wang or a disappointment. Fast forward a year and his numbers are the same we can talk about it. However, given he went for negative pressure Florida to uber intensive Boston, a better league and competition, his numbers should be higher.

[madmike1]

I did not say anything about run support, which would factor into wins/losses.

As Crazy pointed out, some of Josh's increases are clearly related to his shift from the NL to AL. Better league and having to face a DH as opposed to a pitcher.

It is disengenuious to say Wang's stats are slanted because he is a ground ball pitcher. Inherently, Josh and Wang will have stats slanted in there favor. Which goes back to my original point, Wang is not signifcantly better then Josh as you implied. The only XBHs that are higher, are HRs, but Josh's totals are high. Wang is having a slightly better year. Josh is not getting crushed by Wang or a disappointment. Fast forward a year and his numbers are the same we can talk about it. However, given he went for negative pressure Florida to uber intensive Boston, a better league and competition, his numbers should be higher.

Boston traded 2 good players for Beckett and he's making 5 million. Wang makes 500k. Thats why beckett is a dissipointment and if you don't admit that you're not being honest.